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Posted: 6/17/2007 8:26:07 PM EDT
I have a couple of friends,  that have grown up around guns mostly from big fudd families, that think that having a loaded gun is unsafe. I keep a loaded Glock around the house at all times. They seem to think that it is a bad habit to get into to keep a gun loaded. I have tried to explain that you are not guaranteed enough time to rack the slide if your life depended on it. Yet that doesnt mean anything to them.

What are other points are out there?

James
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 8:26:53 PM EDT
[#1]
lemme get a video link...

does it look like he has time to rack the slide?

This video has been discussed ad nauseum, so lets not hijack the thread to discuss the video.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 8:28:48 PM EDT
[#2]
That's their training.  Let them do that.  If they trained that way, they need to act that way.  Do not interfere.

You are trained differently.  Act in accordance with your training.  Do not deviate from your training.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 8:30:00 PM EDT
[#3]
I have a girl friend and a small child in the house so I don't keep my guns locked and loaded anymore, I don't feel a real need to anyway. As long as I have rounds in the mag ready to go I'm fine.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 8:30:51 PM EDT
[#4]
I have a kid at home, so keeping a ready weapon is past for me. I just keep mine off safe-hammer dropped on an empty chamber-and close to the bed at night. If there is a reason to chamber a round, that is the only audible warning they'll get, and probably the last warning they'll ever get.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 8:36:02 PM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:
I have a couple of friends,  that have grown up around guns mostly from big fudd families, that think that having a loaded gun is unsafe. I keep a loaded Glock around the house at all times. They seem to think that it is a bad habit to get into to keep a gun loaded. I have tried to explain that you are not guaranteed enough time to rack the slide if your life depended on it. Yet that doesnt mean anything to them.

What are other points are out there?

James


You're not guarantedd enough time to draw and pull the trigger either.  I don't know why folks are so bent on trying to change others.  If that is what they are comfortable with, let them be.  I know several retired police officers, one of which who has been involved in more shootings than I'll ever see, and they don't carry at all half the time.  When they do, they don't have "one in the chamber".  It doesn't bother me any about how they choose to carry their weapons.  It is their choice.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 8:36:12 PM EDT
[#6]
What if oil leaks down the firing pin and disables the primer, making the chambered round a  dud? I'm sure it's good practice to keep the home defense gun chambered, but if you have several guns for hunting and/or target shooting, it makes no sense to keep them chambered as well. (Here in Canada it's illegal to store guns chambered, or even chamber them anywhere other than a legal place of shooting )
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 8:38:53 PM EDT
[#7]
That is why I use a wheel gun for defense. Not that a pistol is bad, but there's so many variables that come into play - round in the chamber? If you have a misfire in a gunfight and you have a jam?

With a wheel gun, you may not have but 6 rounds, but at least you won't have to worry about not being able to shoot teh bad guy. And really, who needs more than six rounds to put down a bad guy???
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 8:53:40 PM EDT
[#8]
i don't keep one in the chamber, but that's personal preference.  however, i wouldn't try to tell someone else how they should or should not deploy their weapon.  it should be whatever you're most comfortable with.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 9:15:00 PM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:
I have a kid at home, so keeping a ready weapon is past for me. I just keep mine off safe-hammer dropped on an empty chamber-and close to the bed at night. If there is a reason to chamber a round, that is the only audible warning they'll get, and probably the last warning they'll ever get.


I have three kids at home and my chambers are loaded.

I think it is all a matter of personal comfort.  One of my co-workers, whom I got into firearms, when he bought his first (about two years ago), he would keep it in the box, magazines out, and trigger lock.  Now, he keeps it with a loaded chamber under the pillow.  

Identical story with my dad.  Trigger lock, magazine out, in box.  After I took him to a defensive pistol course, it's loaded chamber.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 9:24:22 PM EDT
[#10]
Tell the to wake the fuck up.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 9:30:28 PM EDT
[#11]
It's a damned GOOD habit to keep a gun loaded when you may need it at a moment's notice.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 9:35:02 PM EDT
[#12]
I find that arguing with people is pointless.  I've had people say things to me about keeping a round in the chamber as well.  I just tell them that I keep ever weapon I own ready to fire and I assume every weapon I touch is the same and leave it at that.

Patty
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 9:37:28 PM EDT
[#13]

Quoted: (Here in Canada it's illegal to store guns chambered, or even chamber them anywhere other than a legal place of shooting )


I'm glad I'm not Canadian  To the OP, I wouldn't tell your friend a thing.  He can keep his weapons in any state of ready he wants.  I keep all of my handguns loaded and chambered, ARs loaded, but not chambered, and the k98 unloaded.  To each his own.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 9:42:42 PM EDT
[#14]

Quoted:
That is why I use a wheel gun for defense. Not that a pistol is bad, but there's so many variables that come into play - round in the chamber? If you have a misfire in a gunfight and you have a jam?

With a wheel gun, you may not have but 6 rounds, but at least you won't have to worry about not being able to shoot teh bad guy. And really, who needs more than six rounds to put down a bad guy???


nothing wrong with carrying a wheel gun, but you are assuming there's only one bad guy, and that your hand will be steady and you'll hit a vital organ even on only one guy.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 9:50:18 PM EDT
[#15]

What do I say to a Friend who thinks keeping a round in the Chamber is bad?


"Meh, your funeral bub."  Not much else to say...



Quoted:
What if oil leaks down the firing pin and disables the primer, making the chambered round a  dud?




You don't seriously believe that crap, do you?

people have done tests where they soaked primers in oils, and they still go off. Any oil that may leak into a round will be so minimal anyways that it won't matter.

And didn't yo mama teach you to NOT oil yer goddamn firing pin?  Thats a stupid fucking move to be sure.

Why you ask? Because it promotes carbon buildup, and cathes any bit of dirt and grime that may get near the firing pin and THAT will surely create a blockage that prevents your firing pin from properly engaging the primer, which could in fact cause a failure to fire.

And to top it all off, carry ammo should be high quality factory stuff which is manufactured well enough to virtually seal the primer pocket off from oils, (and some even use sealant on the primer), and not some shitty reloads of questionable origin.

damn...thanks for the good laugh, I needed that.



Link Posted: 6/17/2007 9:57:04 PM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
That is why I use a wheel gun for defense. Not that a pistol is bad, but there's so many variables that come into play - round in the chamber? If you have a misfire in a gunfight and you have a jam?

With a wheel gun, you may not have but 6 rounds, but at least you won't have to worry about not being able to shoot teh bad guy. And really, who needs more than six rounds to put down a bad guy???


nothing wrong with carrying a wheel gun, but you are assuming there's only one bad guy, and that your hand will be steady and you'll hit a vital organ even on only one guy.


True...but a 17 round Glock is a bit overboard My grandfather used to tell me that if you needed more rounds than there were in a 1911 to put a man down, you needed practice.
And really, if you're shooting JHP rounds (which you should be if its a defense weapon), then hitting vital organs isn't as necessary - as long as you're hitting the torso you should be good.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 9:58:00 PM EDT
[#17]
If it is on your person - then fine, keep one in the chamber. I wouldnt keep a loaded gun out with one in the chamber. Maybe if I lived alone... but with kids you definitely shouldnt do it. Even if you are safe, and your family is safe, and maybe even if your kids are safe, there are relatives and kids friends running around waiting for trouble. Making you rack a shell or slap in a magazine is a short step that at least prevents the "hey I found a gun" point - bang! accidents.

And for all you arm chair rambos - in most home invasion cases, you have time to rack a slide. If not  - then your are probably fucked from the get go. Nothing can really stop a well prepared ambush. I have no doubt some of you sleep with your eyes open in an arm chair with a 12 guage pointed at the only door in your house. The rest of us LIVE.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 10:08:21 PM EDT
[#18]
Tell 'em that a fiream should always be treated as if it's loaded - and the only way of making sure that you will observe that rule 100 percent of the time is by actually keeping the gun loaded all the time. Doing so leaves absolutely no doubt about how it should be handled, at all times.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 10:15:39 PM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
That is why I use a wheel gun for defense. Not that a pistol is bad, but there's so many variables that come into play - round in the chamber? If you have a misfire in a gunfight and you have a jam?

With a wheel gun, you may not have but 6 rounds, but at least you won't have to worry about not being able to shoot teh bad guy. And really, who needs more than six rounds to put down a bad guy???


nothing wrong with carrying a wheel gun, but you are assuming there's only one bad guy, and that your hand will be steady and you'll hit a vital organ even on only one guy.


True...but a 17 round Glock is a bit overboard My grandfather used to tell me that if you needed more rounds than there were in a 1911 to put a man down, you needed practice.
And really, if you're shooting JHP rounds (which you should be if its a defense weapon), then hitting vital organs isn't as necessary - as long as you're hitting the torso you should be good.


So your logic is less gun is better?
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 10:18:00 PM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:
Tell 'em that a fiream should always be treated as if it's loaded - and the only way of making sure that you will observe that rule 100 percent of the time is by actually keeping the gun loaded all the time. Doing so leaves absolutely no doubt about how it should be handled, at all times.


Gun owners aren't afraid of themselves mishandling their guns. They are afraid about other people. People that dont know the rules.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 10:19:00 PM EDT
[#21]
do what you do; let them do what they do, since convincing them otherwise seems to be futile...

reasons to have it condition 1/0 (in a secure holster):

--racking slide makes noise, takes time, requires 2 hands to do effiecently, and reqires repetition of training to make sure you actually commit this critical step (vs just flipping off safeties, etc, you now have to instinctively remember to charge)

Link Posted: 6/17/2007 10:19:26 PM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
That is why I use a wheel gun for defense. Not that a pistol is bad, but there's so many variables that come into play - round in the chamber? If you have a misfire in a gunfight and you have a jam?

With a wheel gun, you may not have but 6 rounds, but at least you won't have to worry about not being able to shoot teh bad guy. And really, who needs more than six rounds to put down a bad guy???


nothing wrong with carrying a wheel gun, but you are assuming there's only one bad guy, and that your hand will be steady and you'll hit a vital organ even on only one guy.


True...but a 17 round Glock is a bit overboard My grandfather used to tell me that if you needed more rounds than there were in a 1911 to put a man down, you needed practice.
And really, if you're shooting JHP rounds (which you should be if its a defense weapon), then hitting vital organs isn't as necessary - as long as you're hitting the torso you should be good.


So your logic is less gun is better?


Maybe not in hollywood. But in most cases people will jet if shot at.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 10:19:59 PM EDT
[#23]

Quoted:
If it is on your person - then fine, keep one in the chamber. I wouldnt keep a loaded gun out with one in the chamber. Maybe if I lived alone... but with kids you definitely shouldnt do it. Even if you are safe, and your family is safe, and maybe even if your kids are safe, there are relatives and kids friends running around waiting for trouble. Making you rack a shell or slap in a magazine is a short step that at least prevents the "hey I found a gun" point - bang! accidents.

And for all you arm chair rambos - in most home invasion cases, you have time to rack a slide. If not  - then your are probably fucked from the get go. Nothing can really stop a well prepared ambush. I have no doubt some of you sleep with your eyes open in an arm chair with a 12 guage pointed at the only door in your house. The rest of us LIVE.


A well-prepared defense plan and violent counter-attack will certainly increase your chances to surmount.  
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 10:24:12 PM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:

True...but a 17 round Glock is a bit overboard My grandfather used to tell me that if you needed more rounds than there were in a 1911 to put a man down, you needed practice.
And really, if you're shooting JHP rounds (which you should be if its a defense weapon), then hitting vital organs isn't as necessary - as long as you're hitting the torso you should be good.


This is seven kinds of fucked-up.


Sheep
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 10:31:06 PM EDT
[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Tell 'em that a fiream should always be treated as if it's loaded - and the only way of making sure that you will observe that rule 100 percent of the time is by actually keeping the gun loaded all the time. Doing so leaves absolutely no doubt about how it should be handled, at all times.


Gun owners aren't afraid of themselves mishandling their guns.


Obviously, you've never met a gunowner who has ever had an ND....
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 10:46:43 PM EDT
[#26]

Quoted:
lemme get a video link...

does it look like he has time to rack the slide?

This video has been discussed ad nauseum, so lets not hijack the thread to discuss the video.


Can you give a brief run-down on that vid?  I get that it was a robbery of some sort...But given that it looked like the shooter almost nailed the little girl, did he get the BG, and did the BG go down outside the store?  Just curious.
Link Posted: 6/17/2007 10:48:11 PM EDT
[#27]

Quoted:
do what you do; let them do what they do, since convincing them otherwise seems to be futile...

reasons to have it condition 1/0 (in a secure holster):

--racking slide makes noise, takes time, requires 2 hands to do effiecently, and reqires repetition of training to make sure you actually commit this critical step (vs just flipping off safeties, etc, you now have to instinctively remember to charge)



what is condition 0? finger on trigger at all times? educate me.
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 11:19:08 AM EDT
[#28]
for a ccw, i can see the argument being valid.  but, my nightstand gun is a glock.  i can see waking up and being disoriented in the dark, feeling around for that, and hitting the trigger/safety accidentally while trying to grab it.  that's why i don't leave one in the chamber on it.
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 11:24:55 AM EDT
[#29]

If you're not going to use your balls kindly turn them in at the front desk...
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 11:26:46 AM EDT
[#30]

Quoted:

Maybe not in hollywood. But in most cases people will jet if shot at.


So you're willing to entrust your life to the hope that one bad guy will always run if he is shot at, and multiple bad guys will run if one of them is shot.

Good luck with that.


Quoted:

Quoted:
lemme get a video link...

does it look like he has time to rack the slide?

This video has been discussed ad nauseum, so lets not hijack the thread to discuss the video.


Can you give a brief run-down on that vid?  I get that it was a robbery of some sort...But given that it looked like the shooter almost nailed the little girl, did he get the BG, and did the BG go down outside the store?  Just curious.



Let's take it from the top: shooter is a member here, it was a hotel robbery, girl is farther away from the shooter than it looks, mother needs to be beaten with a stick for just standing there, BG was shot with 3 165 Golden Sabres from a Glock 27, one stuck under his shoulder blade and two penetrated fully, BG fell in the doorway and police arrived very shortly thereafter, BG is in state housing for 7 years for armed robbery.

That everything?
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 11:37:08 AM EDT
[#31]
you should sneak into their house and throw water on them in the dead of sleep.
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 12:58:40 PM EDT
[#32]
My carry weapon is in condition 1 at all times, period.  If anyone thinks they have the time to rack a round, you need to take a true defensive handgun course and try it.  Try standing 1 arms length (touching the target), draw, and fire from the clear position.  Won't happen.  You can't rack the round that close to your body nor do you have the time.  
But in the end, whatever you feel is adequate for yourself is fine with me; I've got my life covered!
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 1:06:08 PM EDT
[#33]
I carry cocked and locked, and store my weapons that way.  OMG!!!11!!1! Its so dangerous.


Link Posted: 6/18/2007 1:07:42 PM EDT
[#34]

Quoted:
what is condition 0? finger on trigger at all times? educate me.


Magazine full, round chambered, cocked, safety off.
Condition 1 is mag full, round chambered, cocked, safety on
Condition 2 is loaded mag, round in chamber, uncocked (i.e. a DA pistol/revolver)
Condition 3 is loaded mag, chamber empty, uncocked (or how a Single Action revolver should be carried, hammer down on empty chamber, rest of the cylinder full)
etc...but IIRC, these are the 3 most common conditions when carry or use is mentioned.

HTH
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 1:20:00 PM EDT
[#35]
I would say "do what you feel comfortable with and I will do the same"


these threads tend to bring out the folks who want to tell us what we DON"T need

Don't need extra mags/ammo

Don't need hi-cap semi auto


etc...
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 1:21:23 PM EDT
[#36]
height=8
Quoted:
height=8
Quoted:
lemme get a video link...

does it look like he has time to rack the slide?

This video has been discussed ad nauseum, so lets not hijack the thread to discuss the video.


Can you give a brief run-down on that vid?  I get that it was a robbery of some sort...But given that it looked like the shooter almost nailed the little girl, did he get the BG, and did the BG go down outside the store?  Just curious.


Its called paralax (sp)  if you examine the scale of the vid he is not shooting close to the child (I would give 2-3ft and he is almost inline with her)...although probably f-ed her hearing for a while.
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 1:26:02 PM EDT
[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
lemme get a video link...

does it look like he has time to rack the slide?

This video has been discussed ad nauseum, so lets not hijack the thread to discuss the video.


Can you give a brief run-down on that vid?  I get that it was a robbery of some sort...But given that it looked like the shooter almost nailed the little girl, did he get the BG, and did the BG go down outside the store?  Just curious.


Its called paralax (sp)  if you examine the scale of the vid he is not shooting close to the child (I would give 2-3ft and he is almost inline with her)...although probably f-ed her hearing for a while.



if that is the vid I remember from the "ago" the bad guy triggered a round off into the ceiling before the good guy started shooting.    I can't watch the vid right now so I could be wrong about which video it is.
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 1:34:11 PM EDT
[#38]
"Good luck."

Let them do what they want and you do what you want.
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 1:43:09 PM EDT
[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Maybe not in hollywood. But in most cases people will jet if shot at.


So you're willing to entrust your life to the hope that one bad guy will always run if he is shot at, and multiple bad guys will run if one of them is shot.

Good luck with that.


Quoted:

Quoted:
lemme get a video link...

does it look like he has time to rack the slide?

This video has been discussed ad nauseum, so lets not hijack the thread to discuss the video.


Can you give a brief run-down on that vid?  I get that it was a robbery of some sort...But given that it looked like the shooter almost nailed the little girl, did he get the BG, and did the BG go down outside the store?  Just curious.



Let's take it from the top: shooter is a member here, it was a hotel robbery, girl is farther away from the shooter than it looks, mother needs to be beaten with a stick for just standing there, BG was shot with 3 165 Golden Sabres from a Glock 27, one stuck under his shoulder blade and two penetrated fully, BG fell in the doorway and police arrived very shortly thereafter, BG is in state housing for 7 years for armed robbery.

That everything?


Thats accurate as far as I can recall from the original thread. Just about everywhere this video is posted has a slightly different story (i.e. whoever posts it changes small details).

Basically the point I was trying to make by posting the video is that you don't have the luxury of time to rack the slide when someone else is armed and threatening you. It might work OK in some scenarios (such as at home) to not keep a round in the chamber, but I'm not going to take that chance. Of course it is my opinion and YMMV.
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 1:56:53 PM EDT
[#40]
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 1:58:38 PM EDT
[#41]
It depends on the situation.

My rule is that if I have a firearm loaded (round in the tube) it is either on me or in sight.  If I'm going to sit on the couch and watch TV I'll take it off my belt and put it on a shelf where I have visual control.  If I get up to go to the bathroom it goes with me.

If your friends are bothered by it, just tell them that they convinced you, then store it out of sight, like inside a cabinet.  

Believe me, they won't let this go and it's probably pointless to debate it with them.

Does anybody have that "This is my safety" shot from BHD?
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 2:14:49 PM EDT
[#42]
height=8
Quoted:
height=8
Quoted:

True...but a 17 round Glock is a bit overboardher.
And really, if you're shooting JHP rounds (which you should be if its a defense weapon), then hitting vital organs isn't as necessary - as long as you're hitting the torsohould


This is seven kinds of fucked-up.


Sheep


10 Kinds of fucked up.

"As long as you're hitting the torso you should be good"

You need to learn about handgun rounds and wounding capacity.
Your target should be the triangle between the nipples and the adams apple. Your head target should be above the nostril, below the eyebrows and between the outside edges of the eyes.
If you aren't hitting these areas, you are missing the target.

Never cound on a pistol hollow point expanding. Never count on one shot to even have an effect. Bad guys stop attacking to 3 reasons.
1: They decide to on their own.
2: You destroy their CNS and they stop functioning.
3: You make enough holes in their blood system and their BP drops enough and they stop funtioning.
So, make losts of holes. Make Big holes. Hit things that leak a lot.

End Gringop handgun stopping power rant #1.

Gringop
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 2:16:31 PM EDT
[#43]
Tell your friend to stop being a pussy.
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 2:22:44 PM EDT
[#44]

Quoted:
And really, if you're shooting JHP rounds (which you should be if its a defense weapon), then hitting vital organs isn't as necessary - as long as you're hitting the torso you should be good.


Here's a story from a GlockTalk member from way back. Note the four total CoM hits with no apparent affect.


A guy and his lady friend are walking down a street after eating a nice steak dinner on Friday night. The area is busy and the only parking available was a nice walk away, not a problem on a beautiful October night.

So the guy, who has had a lot of firearms courses notices a van slowly driving the other direction on the street. The guy notices the deep gurgling sound of the exhaust, but really doesn't think much of it. Then he notices a couple of thugs crossing the street; said GTer is uncomfortable because he and his lady friend seemed to get too much attention from the guys crossing the street. One of those "it just doesn't feel right" type of things.

So the couple continue walking toward the parking garage, when the GTer notices the gurgling sound of that van slowly passing by them. Then the GTer, who regularly uses windows to watch his 6, notices the two thugs that crossed the street coming up behind them. One of the thugs is clearly holding his right hand suspiciously around his belt buckle area. Then said GTer notices the van stopped on the side of the street just ahead and the 2 thugs behind them are getting closer.

GTer tells his lady friend that they are going to duck into any open business they see, but there were not any available. Just as they were coming up on the van, 2 ****-eaters jump out of the van and block the sidewalk. Gter draws his Kimber .45, and moves to engage the thugs 5 feet behind them; the intention was to go to low ready and size up the situation. The two from the van did not appear to be armed and one behind them was already spotted as armed.

So GTer turns and starts to shout at the two thugs on foot when the armed one begins to pull a revolver (SW .38 special). GTer, had the jump because the thugs in the rear did not see him remove his pistol from his daytimer style carry (they had been where alcohol was sold, but he did not drink).

The GTer always, always, always shoots failure drill at the range and trains at least twice a month.

As the BG #1 pulls the pistol, the GTer puts two rounds COM and moves up and puts one in the eye area. There was absolutely no reaction to the chest shots in the BG. The second thug turns to his falling comrade and tries to get his pistol, as GTer puts 2 slugs in his COM and one in the side of the head, GTer didn't know he hit BG #2 with the first 2 rounds. The second thug didn't have time to get turned around to face GTer, and didn't go down from the two to the chest, so said GTer puts one is the side of his head. Both third shots, at 5 feet, were very messy. Luckily for GTer, the second thug did get his hands on the pistol (a fact that would greatly help him in the future). So after the two in the rear were neutralized, GTer turned to check on the two from the van who had started moving his way. When GTer turned to engage them, gun at low ready, they turned and ran to the van got in and the van sped off.


I cut off the rest of the story. The thought we are dealing with here is well-encompassed by these paragraphs.
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 4:14:08 PM EDT
[#45]
DRAW!!!!!!!
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