Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
Member Login

Posted: 1/1/2004 9:51:55 AM EDT
   I have been kicking aroung the idea of selling a preban lower I have online.
   I do not have an FFL.. What do I need from a buyer in order to ship this ? Or if I were to sell any long or handgun ??

      Thanks, just asking because I don't know.

Link Posted: 1/1/2004 10:03:42 AM EDT
Either a copy of the buyer's FFL or the FFL number (which you can check online).

You sent the lower only to the address on the FFL and provide the buyers name.  Ship either usps or common carrier.

And "NO" you don't need an FFL to ship for you no matter what anyone says.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 10:11:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By W-W:
Either a copy of the buyer's FFL or the FFL number (which you can check online).

You sent the lower only to the address on the FFL and provide the buyers name.  Ship either usps or common carrier.

And "NO" you don't need an FFL to ship for you no matter what anyone says.
View Quote


[b]WRONG![/b]

Some states have their own laws regarding the shipping of any firearm out of state.
You have to look up the laws in the state you are shipping from and the state you are shipping to.
For instance if you try shipping a registered preban AR out of california with out going through an FFL who is authorized to deal with "assault weapons" by the state of commiefornica then you will have a big problem.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 10:12:41 AM EDT
Ok, when I sell a lower, I have to enter it in the disposition book, who / where it came from. I just can not put in any info willie ninny into the book, I need a source that is reasonably beyond reproach, a FFL /dealer will ship along with any  product he sends,  a copy of his FFl, this info is put in the disposition book. SO if you find a FFL that will accept a lower with just your written info that will do this ---- good for you I won't.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 10:13:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 10:14:54 AM EDT
a local FFL told a guy once......just throw it in a box....write TRACTOR PARTS on it and ship it...........[:D]
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 10:17:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By varmitgun:
a local FFL told a guy once......just throw it in a box....write TRACTOR PARTS on it and ship it...........[:D]
View Quote


Of course the guy who said that doesn't have to do the time in jail now does he?
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 10:19:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2004 10:27:15 AM EDT by cyanide]
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
The other problem you may run into is a receiving FFL who will only receive from another FFL.

Getting to be rather common lately.
View Quote

Well sure, ATF comes does an inspection (not unheard of) asks where did you get this lower, I say JIM SMITH Ohio, they ask how do you know this JIM SMITH, I say he gave  me his address, see here is the return label ---- oh boy I see problems aplenty.

I may not agree with all the rules and bullshit, but I do have to work with them. As jrzy says ---- the buck stops with me, and I am not going to the slammer for a small dollar profit.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 10:28:57 AM EDT
From ATF
(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-state source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the
purchaser's own state? [Back]


"A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29] "

Link Posted: 1/1/2004 10:34:54 AM EDT
Recently, I had a conversation w/ a BATF agent in Nashville, TN concerning this. He assured me, as did the BATF website, that an individual could legally ship a firearm to a dealer for transfer purposes without violating federal law.

I then spent the next week figuring out the hard way that, while it's legal, no dealer in west TN will do this. They insist that the seller sends the firearm through an FFL.

Apparently the popularity of internet sales has prompted this.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 10:57:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By W-W:
From ATF
(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-state source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the
purchaser's own state? [Back]


"A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29] "

View Quote


Yes that is true, I lost this argument over a month ago and you are correct about the Fed. and ATF
now you also have to follow all state laws regarding firearm transactions and shipping.
You have to see what your state law says and the state law of the state you are shipping to.
If you violate  state law and try and fall back on Fed law they will laugh you out of court and right into jail.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 11:04:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2004 11:18:04 AM EDT by cyanide]
Originally Posted By jrzy:
Originally Posted By W-W:
From ATF
(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-state source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the
purchaser's own state? [Back]


"A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29] "

View Quote


Yes that is true, I lost this argument over a month ago and you are correct about the Fed. and ATF
now you also have to follow all state laws regarding firearm transactions and shipping.
You have to see what your state law says and the state law of the state you are shipping to.
If you violate  state law and try and fall back on Fed law they will laugh you out of court and right into jail.
View Quote


Exactly, in Ohio it would be the possession of stolen property law that would concern me, if I accepted a lower from out of state that was stolen, transferred it in good faith, buyer finds it is stolen, it is taken and returned to the owner or insurance company, he has recourse through the courts with me as I am conveniently in his state and jurisdiction. Frankly I can see no way to survive a court battle under the above mentioned circumstances.

That and the fact that ATF agents all have different interpretations of the rules/laws has me concerned enough to require the shipment come through a FFL, sorry.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 11:41:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cyanide:
Exactly, in Ohio it would be the possession of stolen property law that would concern me, if I accepted a lower from out of state that was stolen, transferred it in good faith, buyer finds it is stolen, it is taken and returned to the owner or insurance company, he has recourse through the courts with me as I am conveniently in his state and jurisdiction. Frankly I can see no way to survive a court battle under the above mentioned circumstances.

That and the fact that ATF agents all have different interpretations of the rules/laws has me concerned enough to require the shipment come through a FFL, sorry.
View Quote


I don't see how a firearm shipped from another dealer offers any additional protection to you in this case.  Neither of you have any interest in the firearm and you are just acting as a transfer agent as required by federal law.  The receiver of the firearm is not purchasing the firearm from you.  He has no recourse from you to collect on his loss.  

Do you verify that every firearm you take in on trade or transfer is not stolen?  Having the firearm shipped by an FFL is no guarantee that the firearm is not stolen.

The federal law is quite clear.  It is perfectly legal for a person (non-licensee) to ship a firearm to an FFL for transfer or any other legal purpose.

Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:11:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rkbar15:
Originally Posted By cyanide:
Exactly, in Ohio it would be the possession of stolen property law that would concern me, if I accepted a lower from out of state that was stolen, transferred it in good faith, buyer finds it is stolen, it is taken and returned to the owner or insurance company, he has recourse through the courts with me as I am conveniently in his state and jurisdiction. Frankly I can see no way to survive a court battle under the above mentioned circumstances.

That and the fact that ATF agents all have different interpretations of the rules/laws has me concerned enough to require the shipment come through a FFL, sorry.
View Quote


I don't see how a firearm shipped from another dealer offers any additional protection to you in this case.  Neither of you have any interest in the firearm and you are just acting as a transfer agent as required by federal law.  The receiver of the firearm is not purchasing the firearm from you.  He has no recourse from you to collect on his loss.  

Do you verify that every firearm you take in on trade or transfer is not stolen?  Having the firearm shipped by an FFL is no guarantee that the firearm is not stolen.

The federal law is quite clear.  It is perfectly legal for a person (non-licensee) to ship a firearm to an FFL for transfer or any other legal purpose.

View Quote


Great minds thinking alike!
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:21:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rkbar15:
Originally Posted By cyanide:
Exactly, in Ohio it would be the possession of stolen property law that would concern me, if I accepted a lower from out of state that was stolen, transferred it in good faith, buyer finds it is stolen, it is taken and returned to the owner or insurance company, he has recourse through the courts with me as I am conveniently in his state and jurisdiction. Frankly I can see no way to survive a court battle under the above mentioned circumstances.

That and the fact that ATF agents all have different interpretations of the rules/laws has me concerned enough to require the shipment come through a FFL, sorry.
View Quote


[red]I don't see how a firearm shipped from another dealer offers any additional protection to you in this case.[/red]  Neither of you have any interest in the firearm and you are just acting as a transfer agent as required by federal law.  The receiver of the firearm is not purchasing the firearm from you.  He has no recourse from you to collect on his loss.  

Do you verify that every firearm you take in on trade or transfer is not stolen?  Having the firearm shipped by an FFL is no guarantee that the firearm is not stolen.

The federal law is quite clear.  It is perfectly legal for a person (non-licensee) to ship a firearm to an FFL for transfer or any other legal purpose.

View Quote

It shows I did everything to insure that what I transferred was done with a "good faith" effort to insure all things were on the up and up. I feel it would allow me to show to a Judge that I was blameless for the transfer and the fault lies with the seller, whom I could [/b]prove[/b] by asking the FFL who sent it to me to provide the ID of the party that should really be gone after, surely you can understand this, if not just go through some other dealer/FFL holder, in the end it is no big loss for me, but doing it the other way could be.

Great minds --- I have a differing view, it is not your loss of time for court, loss of money for legal representation,it affects you in no way, so no big deal. Great minds, i think narrow minded is a better statement.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:25:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cyanide:
Originally Posted By rkbar15:
Originally Posted By cyanide:
Exactly, in Ohio it would be the possession of stolen property law that would concern me, if I accepted a lower from out of state that was stolen, transferred it in good faith, buyer finds it is stolen, it is taken and returned to the owner or insurance company, he has recourse through the courts with me as I am conveniently in his state and jurisdiction. Frankly I can see no way to survive a court battle under the above mentioned circumstances.

That and the fact that ATF agents all have different interpretations of the rules/laws has me concerned enough to require the shipment come through a FFL, sorry.
View Quote


[red]I don't see how a firearm shipped from another dealer offers any additional protection to you in this case.[/red]  Neither of you have any interest in the firearm and you are just acting as a transfer agent as required by federal law.  The receiver of the firearm is not purchasing the firearm from you.  He has no recourse from you to collect on his loss.  

Do you verify that every firearm you take in on trade or transfer is not stolen?  Having the firearm shipped by an FFL is no guarantee that the firearm is not stolen.

The federal law is quite clear.  It is perfectly legal for a person (non-licensee) to ship a firearm to an FFL for transfer or any other legal purpose.

View Quote

It shows I did everything to insure that what I transferred was done with a "good faith" effort to insure all things were on the up and up. I feel it would allow me to show to a Judge that I was blameless for the transfer and the fault lies with the seller, whom I could [/b]prove[/b] by asking the FFL who sent it to me to provide the ID of the party that should really be gone after, surely you can understand this, if not just go through some other dealer/FFL holder, in the end it is no big loss for me, but doing it the other way could be.

Great minds --- I have a differing view, it is not your loss of time for court, loss of money for legal representation,it affects you in no way, so no big deal. Great minds, i think narrow minded is a better statement.
View Quote


You seem way too smart for me.  Obviously you are correct for YOUR needs.  

I'll stick with the letter of the law.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:29:31 PM EDT
Let me know how many lowers you transfer a year ??
Yeah I thought so.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:32:32 PM EDT
Between 2-3 a month.  Want to try more name calling?
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:34:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By W-W:
Between 2-3 a month.  Want to try more name calling?
View Quote
IM me you FFL number so I can EZ check it or do you have something to hide.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:40:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:45:32 PM EDT
SteyrAUG, I really do not expect a FFL number this is the internet and caution is a required thing on the internet( besides it would mean nothing). But only a dealer would understand the difference between doing it once and gettin away with it, and doing it all the time and waiting for one to bite you on the ass.

I understand guys being frustrated by it, but it is not my doing.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 1:06:14 PM EDT
Cyanide:  I don't have any issue with your business practices. That is your decision.  

Have you discussed this with an attorney?  

Keep in mind that:

1. You have no interest in the firearm being transferred.  
2. It is not coming out of your inventory or being sold by you on consignment.
3. You are not being compensated for brokering the firearm.
4. You have not been involved in the selling or buying of the firearm.
5. No funds have been received by or disbursed by you to either party.

You have acted in good faith either way and have merely transferred the firearm at the request of the purchaser as required by law.  The purchaser has assumed all liability as to the status, condition and suitability of purpose of the firearm.  
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 1:10:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2004 1:32:50 PM EDT by jrzy]
Originally Posted By W-W:
Between 2-3 a month.  Want to try more name calling?
View Quote


Then you better be an FFL because if not it was pretty stupid to admit you are selling firearms without an FFL (as a business, which 2 ort 3 a month definitely qualifies as), silly us for going through all the trouble of getting the necessary licenses.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 1:20:22 PM EDT
Did it get awful quiet in here or is it just me ? [:)]
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 1:46:01 PM EDT
jrzy:

Buying and selling 2 or 3 firearms a month is not illegal.  There is no magic number of firearms you can buy or sell as a collector as long as they are being legally transferred and you are not running a "business."  There are collectors with thousands of firearms in there collection.  It is not unusual for them to buy and sell many firearms each year from their personal collection.  This does not require an FFL.  In fact you can’t get an FFL for the purpose of acquiring firearms for your personal collection.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 2:13:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rkbar15:
jrzy:

Buying and selling 2 or 3 firearms a month is not illegal.  There is no magic number of firearms you can buy or sell as a collector as long as they are being legally transferred and you are not running a "business."  There are collectors with thousands of firearms in there collection.  It is not unusual for them to buy and sell many firearms each year from their personal collection.  This does not require an FFL.  In fact you can’t get an FFL for the purpose of acquiring firearms for your personal collection.
View Quote


Yeah I agree but,
That's not how it works in real life.
The ATF opens a file on a guy and from there on it goes down hill fast!  

Link Posted: 1/1/2004 2:17:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2004 2:20:10 PM EDT by cyanide]
Originally Posted By rkbar15:
jrzy:

Buying and selling 2 or 3 firearms a month is not illegal.  There is no magic number of firearms you can buy or sell as a collector as long as they are being legally transferred and you are not running a "business."  There are collectors with thousands of firearms in there collection.  It is not unusual for them to buy and sell many firearms each year from their personal collection.  This does not require an FFL.  In fact you can’t get an FFL for the purpose of acquiring firearms for your personal collection.
View Quote

Well in response to your question, even though you asked jrzy, what would [b]you[/b] wager those collectors go through licensed dealers to transfer their  trades or collection about the country ? I mean for the non face to face trades and swaps out of their state ??
Top Top