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Posted: 9/11/2004 2:03:56 PM EST
I am in the middle of an ongoing debate about socialism with a peer of mine ( I can no longer call him a friend after some of the comments this guy has made)...I know there are other countries out there that not only endorse civilian ownership of weapons, but some even require that each household maintain a state of readiness...keeping guns and ammo available (the suplies, not the publication)

Please name some countries that are pro "armed civilian" and if you can, briefly explain their policy on gun ownership.

Thanks for your input
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:04:26 PM EST
Israel is a good start...
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:05:59 PM EST
Switzerland might be. They issue military arms and ammo to militia members to be stored at home.

Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:07:10 PM EST
Have you tried a Google search?
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:13:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 2:14:19 PM EST by SO-COM]
Iraq under Saddam actually did as well.. If you were over 18 you were required to have a AK and ammo (speculating now) for the possibility of an invasion from the west.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:14:17 PM EST
Russia has Rifles all over their population. Durning the school ordeal citizens were showing up with their AK's and not semi's either
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:15:22 PM EST

Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:16:52 PM EST
Last I heard, Israel issued weapons to civilians in settlements near the palestinians, but gun ownership in the cities was heavily regulated.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:18:12 PM EST
I think most countries allow their citizens to own guns in one fashion or another. Even the former ComBlock countries. Probably more do then don't.

Mostly it will be for hunting. Few will recognize the right to self defense.

The US Consitition is unique in that our country is the only one to recognize civilian ownership as a God given right.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:20:35 PM EST
I'm not sure about Russia, I asked a friend of mine there if they were allowed to own guns in Russia and this was her reply:

"it's necessery to have a lot of document and license, it's to long and hard to get it"

I dunno.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:23:01 PM EST
Actually, In France and Germany gun ownership is not as rare as one might believe, though it is more strictly regulated than here.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:24:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By mpearcex:
Russia has Rifles all over their population. Durning the school ordeal citizens were showing up with their AK's and not semi's either



Is this accurate I wonder?

www.gunlab.com.ru/summary.html
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:24:12 PM EST
Finland
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:27:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 2:30:36 PM EST by tcsd1236]

Originally Posted By mace:
Last I heard, Israel issued weapons to civilians in settlements near the palestinians, but gun ownership in the cities was heavily regulated.


I had heard that s well; there were a few threads over at Glocktalk over the past year or so that more or less stated that gun ownership was not as carte blanche in Israel as is assumed here in the US. Such as this thread:

glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=109033&highlight=israel

However, you wouldn't see a US police chief making the following comment:

glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236214&highlight=israel
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:36:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 2:36:33 PM EST by Steve_T_M]
Finland, Norway and New Zealand have heavily regulated gun ownership. No cosmetic bans or magazine restrictions. You must prove a need for certain kinds of guns - "military style semi automatics" in NZ, the same as "Assault weapons" in the USA. I think there are storage laws. CCW is pretty much out of the question as far as I know, but not really needed due to low crime rate.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:38:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By mace:
Last I heard, Israel issued weapons to civilians in settlements near the palestinians, but gun ownership in the cities was heavily regulated.


I had heard that s well; there were a few threads over at Glocktalk over the past year or so that more or less stated that gun ownership was not as carte blanche in Israel as is assumed here in the US. Such as this thread:

glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=109033&highlight=israel

However, you wouldn't see a US police chief making the following comment:

glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236214&highlight=israel



Then it has changed. When I was there I shot full auto UZI at a public range and I was not the only one doing it.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:48:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 2:54:27 PM EST by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:51:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By SO-COM:
Iraq under Saddam actually did as well.. If you were over 18 you were required to have a AK and ammo (speculating now) for the possibility of an invasion from the west.



Ba'athist loyalists only, I believe. I might be mistaken, though.

Link Posted: 9/11/2004 2:57:05 PM EST
Switzerland has better gun ownership laws than the US, absolute RKBA, CCW is ok and semi autos are unregistered as are sales… cool!
Also all able bodied males between 18-55 are issued with a full auto and ammunition to be kept at home.

France also has a RKBA for homeowners for defence of their homes subject to basic background checks!

Most 'civilised' countries throughout the world allow gun ownership subject to licensing and allow the use of 'deadly force' in self defence within the home… except Japan and Hong Kong were it is almost impossible to own a firearm of any sort

Unfortunately I live in Britain were the only 'weapon' I can legally threaten a criminal with is my pecker…

ANdy
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 3:17:09 PM EST
"The Federal Weapons Law of 1998 regulates import, export, manufacture, trade, and certain types of possession of firearms. The right of buying, possessing, and carrying arms is guaranteed with certain restrictions. It does not apply to the police or to the Militia Army — of which most adult males are members."

"The law forbids fully automatic arms and certain semiautomatics "derived" therefrom; but Swiss military assault rifles are excluded from this prohibition. (The exclusion makes the prohibition nearly meaningless.) Further, collectors may obtain special permits for the "banned" arms, such as submachine guns and machine guns."

"In purchasing a firearm from a licensed dealer, a permit is required for handguns and some long guns, but not for single-shot rifles, multi-barrel rifles, Swiss bolt-action military rifles, target rifles, or hunting rifles. Permits must be granted provided the applicant is at least 18 years old and has no disqualifying criminal record. Authorities may not keep any registry of firearms owners. Private persons may freely buy and sell firearms without restriction, provided that they retain a written agreement, and that the seller believes the purchaser is not criminally disqualified. " - Dave Kopel, Stephen Halbrook & Carlo Stagnaro, National Review



"In Finland:

- full auto is possible but lots of prohibitive bureacratical hoops to jump

- silencers are accessories, as magazines or, say, slings... environmentally recommendable even

- all firearms ownership is licenced on a "need" basis, including CS, OC and other teargas products

- military reserve sports constitute a "need" for anyone (conscript military, 80% of males serve 6-12 months and remain in reserve until 60)

- OAL minimum of 86 cm for rifles and shotguns renders folding stock rifles and SMG's difficult to licence (a separate "carbine" class might be in the works)

- "CCW" possible only for gas canisters, again on a "need" basis current firearm transportation legislation allows transportation of a concealed firearm with magazine inserted as long as no cartridge is in the chamber! See below, though:

- because of the nature and prevalence of criminal violence in the society, CCW is entirely unnecessary for the time being

- when that situation changes (Estonia just joining the EU, Russian organized crime invading, drug problems worsening, immigration growing etc.), CCW legislation or at least de facto practice can in my experience be made a reality (and seeing to that that chance isn't diminished, active promotion of the shooting culture is the tool as there is absolutely no constitutional RKBA)

- NB that homes are well armed though, no hot burglaries occur!

I'm very well aware that the above presents quite unbelievable or from an U.S. perspective totally alien ideas of our situation and prospects, likewise on the values and political ideas on which current practice is based on. Our geopolitical position and facts of history have made it this way." – First-Person Account of Finnish Gun Laws
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 3:29:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By the:

Originally Posted By SO-COM:
Iraq under Saddam actually did as well.. If you were over 18 you were required to have a AK and ammo (speculating now) for the possibility of an invasion from the west.



Ba'athist loyalists only, I believe. I might be mistaken, though.




Ahh.. That does make sence. He wouldn't let just anyone have the power to revolt.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 3:57:39 PM EST
Germans must actively compete in gun sports to own one and they only allowed to shoot at their santioned club or at competition.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 4:20:26 PM EST
I have to ask... Why are you going down this road? It's a loser argument. No other 'civilized' nation is based on the US Constitution so what's the point. I can find any number of nations without rights against unreasonable search and seziure, the right to peaceably assemble for political purpose. Does that mean that since they are pretty places and people seem happy there I should give up my other rights cause Europe or Asia does it?

It's the same as arguing over the percent of crime that each individual gun is used in. It's a way to trap you into either admiting your a gun-nut, or accepting that registration/regulation is ok.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 4:29:05 PM EST
I once met this guy from Africa named (seriously) Mohammad Ali. His car had broken down and I gave him a ride to a service station. On the way, we began talking about firearms (I initiated the conversation). He said that in his country you're considered foolish to not arm yourself. Common practice - of course, they do have a lot of genocidal maniacs in that continent.

Link Posted: 9/11/2004 4:31:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:
I once met this guy from Africa named (seriously) Mohammad Ali. His car had broken down and I gave him a ride to a service station. On the way, we began talking about firearms (I initiated the conversation). He said that in his country you're considered foolish to not arm yourself. Common practice - of course, they do have a lot of genocidal maniacs in that continent.




Eating each other is still common in places there too… so a gun is a sensible defensive option…
Andy
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 4:38:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:
I once met this guy from Africa named (seriously) Mohammad Ali. His car had broken down and I gave him a ride to a service station. On the way, we began talking about firearms (I initiated the conversation). He said that in his country you're considered foolish to not arm yourself. Common practice - of course, they do have a lot of genocidal maniacs in that continent.




Eating each other is still common in places there too… so a gun is a sensible defensive option…
Andy



I wouldn't be caught dead in Africa w/o a gun. Those people are
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:14:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:
I once met this guy from Africa named (seriously) Mohammad Ali. His car had broken down and I gave him a ride to a service station. On the way, we began talking about firearms (I initiated the conversation). He said that in his country you're considered foolish to not arm yourself. Common practice - of course, they do have a lot of genocidal maniacs in that continent.




Eating each other is still common in places there too… so a gun is a sensible defensive option…
Andy



Im guessing he's from (SOUTH) Africa.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:35:37 PM EST
Thanks for all the good info...I am looking forward to my next conversation with Mr. I-want-to-be-a-socialist.

Thanks again
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