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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 1/18/2015 3:50:58 PM EST
My google-fu sucks, I keep getting hits for atf lost firearms, atf lost vs whistle-blower etc.

I'm just curious if the atf ever had some of their stupid gun related rulings rejected.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 3:53:41 PM EST
Didn't they essentially get called stupid for the shoestring machine gun thing?
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 3:53:50 PM EST
I don't know. That's a good question.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 3:56:26 PM EST
Lost one v Thompson Center if I remember right.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 3:57:22 PM EST
There was the muzzle break thing recently.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 3:57:51 PM EST
This is not a tag.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 4:06:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2015 4:07:56 PM EST by XterraJohn]
The real question is probably how many people has the BATFE ever actually decided to prosecute based on a questionable rule? I imagine that with few exceptions they only really prosecute cases that are a relatively easy win. Remember, even in the Olofson case they didn't charge him with manufacturing or possessing but simply transferring.

I might be completely wrong though.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 4:17:17 PM EST
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Originally Posted By XterraJohn:
The real question is probably how many people has the BATFE ever actually decided to prosecute based on a questionable rule? I imagine that with few exceptions they only really prosecute cases that are a relatively easy win. Remember, even in the Olofson case they didn't charge him with manufacturing or possessing but simply transferring.

I might be completely wrong though.
View Quote


The truth to that is that is that very , very few cases actually get far because the defendants are sat down by their public defender and told "look, they have all the money in the world for lawyers to prosecute you and will tie your shit up until you fucking DIE in court. You'll lose your house defending yourself, if they haven't seized it already pencil whipping your charges into RICO statute violations, either way you won't have a house when you are done. Or your job from the months you have missed work. My advice is to take the plea deal they are offering. You essentially admit guilt and wear a tether for a year and keep your nose clean, maybe pay a fine. Yeah, sure, you'll be a felon for life but this way will be the most minimal impact for you and your family. Now sign here...."
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 4:25:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 4:36:15 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:


The truth to that is that is that very , very few cases actually get far because the defendants are sat down by their public defender and told "look, they have all the money in the world for lawyers to prosecute you and will tie your shit up until you fucking DIE in court. You'll lose your house defending yourself, if they haven't seized it already pencil whipping your charges into RICO statute violations, either way you won't have a house when you are done. Or your job from the months you have missed work. My advice is to take the plea deal they are offering. You essentially admit guilt and wear a tether for a year and keep your nose clean, maybe pay a fine. Yeah, sure, you'll be a felon for life but this way will be the most minimal impact for you and your family. Now sign here...."
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Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
Originally Posted By XterraJohn:
The real question is probably how many people has the BATFE ever actually decided to prosecute based on a questionable rule? I imagine that with few exceptions they only really prosecute cases that are a relatively easy win. Remember, even in the Olofson case they didn't charge him with manufacturing or possessing but simply transferring.

I might be completely wrong though.


The truth to that is that is that very , very few cases actually get far because the defendants are sat down by their public defender and told "look, they have all the money in the world for lawyers to prosecute you and will tie your shit up until you fucking DIE in court. You'll lose your house defending yourself, if they haven't seized it already pencil whipping your charges into RICO statute violations, either way you won't have a house when you are done. Or your job from the months you have missed work. My advice is to take the plea deal they are offering. You essentially admit guilt and wear a tether for a year and keep your nose clean, maybe pay a fine. Yeah, sure, you'll be a felon for life but this way will be the most minimal impact for you and your family. Now sign here...."


Know a guy who had that exact conversation, then the "evidence" against him came out, as a class 3/4/7 and SOT, and licensed blaster manfacturer he had unristered parts that could be assembled into a sten gun in his business. he was like 64 years old.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 4:39:51 PM EST
Not firearms related, but the BATFE lost in federal court to Tripoli and NAR (hobby high-power rocketry organizations). BATFE had arbitrarily classified the ammonium perchlorate composite propellant (APCP) used in high-power rocket motors as an explosive. However, the material is NOT an explosive. Judge Reggie Walton ruled that the BATFE couldn't classify something as an explosive just because they said so...

The government did not appeal his ruling, so APCP is now unregulated by BATFE.

This was in 2009 btw, and the case took about 9 years
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 5:29:32 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Ohio_Bill:
Not firearms related, but the BATFE lost in federal court to Tripoli and NAR (hobby high-power rocketry organizations). BATFE had arbitrarily classified the ammonium perchlorate composite propellant (APCP) used in high-power rocket motors as an explosive. However, the material is NOT an explosive. Judge Reggie Walton ruled that the BATFE couldn't classify something as an explosive just because they said so...

The government did not appeal his ruling, so APCP is now unregulated by BATFE.

This was in 2009 btw, and the case took about 9 years
View Quote



Even not gun related, that is the type of stuff I'm talking about.

Maybe if the atf had their nose rubbed in the stink enough it would stop or limit the stupidity.

I think we gun owners need to send pictures of what's legal and illegal to our elected reps showing how ridiculous some of the atf rulings are. The back and forth letters and such also.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 5:36:25 PM EST
Didnt they lose a mg related case in Illinois or something and they refused to appeal for fear of losing big? May have been registry related now that i think of it. Basically the judge or court ruled the registry was so fucked up that it was tossed as evidence against the defendant.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 5:37:47 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Ohio_Bill:
Not firearms related, but the BATFE lost in federal court to Tripoli and NAR (hobby high-power rocketry organizations). BATFE had arbitrarily classified the ammonium perchlorate composite propellant (APCP) used in high-power rocket motors as an explosive. However, the material is NOT an explosive. Judge Reggie Walton ruled that the BATFE couldn't classify something as an explosive just because they said so...

The government did not appeal his ruling, so APCP is now unregulated by BATFE.

This was in 2009 btw, and the case took about 9 years
View Quote




And we used it as an explosive at my employer....

Tag for later reading
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 5:44:38 PM EST
Tag for info
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 5:45:54 PM EST
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Originally Posted By safe1:
I hope NOLO adds his case to the list.
View Quote

THIS
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 5:46:05 PM EST
They lost a set of front doors in the early 90's.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 5:48:44 PM EST
They lost a lawsuit from a landlord for damaging an apartment that the ATF rented, they tore out a wall and damaged plumbing and some other shit.
Was part of that whole episode where the ATF convinced a mentally challenged individual to get a neck tattoo of the logo of their fake store.
They also got sued over the that neck tattoo, I belive.

Link Posted: 1/18/2015 5:52:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2015 5:53:16 PM EST by whiskerz]
ATF vs. Wrenn , They got a mail fraud plea deal , Wrennbecame a felon and lost his FFL/SOT . none of the gun charges stuck
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 5:54:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2015 6:24:13 PM EST by Villafuego]
FJ Vollmer won a case against them in the 90's ("once an MG always an MG 'aint necessarily true").......and an Importer of FAL's did as well in the 70's-80's(?)

"Having examined the Bureau's arguments from text, structure, legislative history, and underlying policy, we find no reasonable basis for its once-a-machinegun-always-a-machinegun interpretation of the Firearms Act. Nor are we persuaded by the district court's own explanations of why the Bureau's position was nonetheless substantially justified. Although, as the district court observed, the Bureau had followed its interpretation of the Firearms Act since at least the early 1980s, we do not see how merely applying an unreasonable statutory interpretation for several years can transform it into a reasonable interpretation" (Reminds me of Joseph Goebels famous line....tell a lie to so many people for long enough and it becomes the truth)

James Bardwell keeps a good repository of ATF legal actions/suits......

People who just found the internet, youtube, and AR15.com, and wish to play in the "grey area" of firearms legality, should really take a day or so to do a little reading.......

http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/

Take the time to read this case specifically.........note who the US Attorney was........
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-dc-circuit/1277810.html

Cases against them must be chosen wisely.....making a case based on a badly written opinion letter, or erroneously approved F1 might not go as well as some folks would like to think.....
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 5:57:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Marlboroman79:



Even not gun related, that is the type of stuff I'm talking about.

Maybe if the atf had their nose rubbed in the stink enough it would stop or limit the stupidity.

I think we gun owners need to send pictures of what's legal and illegal to our elected reps showing how ridiculous some of the atf rulings are. The back and forth letters and such also.
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Originally Posted By Marlboroman79:
Originally Posted By Ohio_Bill:
Not firearms related, but the BATFE lost in federal court to Tripoli and NAR (hobby high-power rocketry organizations). BATFE had arbitrarily classified the ammonium perchlorate composite propellant (APCP) used in high-power rocket motors as an explosive. However, the material is NOT an explosive. Judge Reggie Walton ruled that the BATFE couldn't classify something as an explosive just because they said so...

The government did not appeal his ruling, so APCP is now unregulated by BATFE.

This was in 2009 btw, and the case took about 9 years



Even not gun related, that is the type of stuff I'm talking about.

Maybe if the atf had their nose rubbed in the stink enough it would stop or limit the stupidity.

I think we gun owners need to send pictures of what's legal and illegal to our elected reps showing how ridiculous some of the atf rulings are. The back and forth letters and such also.
Not likely. Jackboots gonna jackboot. The only way to change the ATF would be to replace a majority of it's members with the jackboot mindset.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 6:01:09 PM EST
Wasn't there a case in Alaska where a dude was charged for building a Sten, but the jury acquitted him? Maybe 15-20 years ago? I can't find reference to the case anywhere.

Link Posted: 1/18/2015 6:03:04 PM EST
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Originally Posted By pighelmet:
They lost a set of front doors in the early 90's.
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Link Posted: 1/18/2015 6:07:19 PM EST
Not enough.

The ATF, needs to go away. Along with most of the federal government.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 6:14:07 PM EST
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Originally Posted By safe1:
I hope NOLO adds his case to the list.
View Quote


+1
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 6:15:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2015 6:16:09 PM EST by Number1gun]
They loose a few but as someone said above a lot gets plea dealed away or the State already has them nailed and they choose to just let the state or DEA or ..? take care of them. In many cases the ATF is called in because some other agency already arrested someone and they found firearms, explosives, etc. The ATF shows up and just tacks on several more charges to bolster whatever case is already being investigated.

Ex: ATF comes into the shop askes about a certain customer. Askes to see the 4473's. May or may not ask you to pick customer out of a line up of photos. They make copies of 4473's,,,, agent signs in the margin. Agent takes ornigals. Shop refiles copies.
While talking with the Agent he says: The DEA got that guy with way to much Cocaine and we got called to pick up the guns.
So they go through the motions to make sure they don't miss a chance to Add more charges at the guy. Plus it looks much worse to the BG's attorney when the ATF just added 6 more charges. Then plea deal away whatever works best to keep the guy locked up the longest.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 6:48:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 6:51:17 PM EST
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Originally Posted By matto4785:
Didnt they lose a mg related case in Illinois or something and they refused to appeal for fear of losing big? May have been registry related now that i think of it. Basically the judge or court ruled the registry was so fucked up that it was tossed as evidence against the defendant.
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Originally Posted By matto4785:
Didnt they lose a mg related case in Illinois or something and they refused to appeal for fear of losing big? May have been registry related now that i think of it. Basically the judge or court ruled the registry was so fucked up that it was tossed as evidence against the defendant.


http://www.guns.com/2014/03/27/makes-innovator-enterprises-v-atf-suppressor-case-interesting/

In sum, since enactment of 18 U.S.C. § 922(o), the Secretary has refused to accept any tax payments to make or transfer a machinegun made after May 19, 1986, to approve any such making or transfer, or to register any such machinegun. As applied to machineguns made and possessed after May 19, 1986, the registration and other requirements of the National Firearms Act, Chapter 53 of the Internal Revenue Code, no longer serve any revenue purpose, and are impliedly repealed or are unconstitutional. Accordingly, Counts 1(a) and (b), 2, and 3 of the superseding indictment are

DISMISSED.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 6:55:39 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:


The truth to that is that is that very , very few cases actually get far because the defendants are sat down by their public defender and told "look, they have all the money in the world for lawyers to prosecute you and will tie your shit up until you fucking DIE in court. You'll lose your house defending yourself, if they haven't seized it already pencil whipping your charges into RICO statute violations, either way you won't have a house when you are done. Or your job from the months you have missed work. My advice is to take the plea deal they are offering. You essentially admit guilt and wear a tether for a year and keep your nose clean, maybe pay a fine. Yeah, sure, you'll be a felon for life but this way will be the most minimal impact for you and your family. Now sign here...."
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Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
Originally Posted By XterraJohn:
The real question is probably how many people has the BATFE ever actually decided to prosecute based on a questionable rule? I imagine that with few exceptions they only really prosecute cases that are a relatively easy win. Remember, even in the Olofson case they didn't charge him with manufacturing or possessing but simply transferring.

I might be completely wrong though.


The truth to that is that is that very , very few cases actually get far because the defendants are sat down by their public defender and told "look, they have all the money in the world for lawyers to prosecute you and will tie your shit up until you fucking DIE in court. You'll lose your house defending yourself, if they haven't seized it already pencil whipping your charges into RICO statute violations, either way you won't have a house when you are done. Or your job from the months you have missed work. My advice is to take the plea deal they are offering. You essentially admit guilt and wear a tether for a year and keep your nose clean, maybe pay a fine. Yeah, sure, you'll be a felon for life but this way will be the most minimal impact for you and your family. Now sign here...."


Reagan considering disbanding the ATF in the 80's because the cost per conviction was 1.8 million due to all the cases they lost.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 7:06:40 PM EST
You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 7:14:34 PM EST
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Originally Posted By geerhed:
You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.
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This is a very important point that many seem to constantly miss.......and the "ride" is often much more than 20 minutes in the back seat of a Crown Vic.....
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 7:32:17 PM EST
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Originally Posted By pighelmet:
They lost a set of front doors in the early 90's.
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I lol'd
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 7:34:01 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:


The truth to that is that is that very , very few cases actually get far because the defendants are sat down by their public defender and told "look, they have all the money in the world for lawyers to prosecute you and will tie your shit up until you fucking DIE in court. You'll lose your house defending yourself, if they haven't seized it already pencil whipping your charges into RICO statute violations, either way you won't have a house when you are done. Or your job from the months you have missed work. My advice is to take the plea deal they are offering. You essentially admit guilt and wear a tether for a year and keep your nose clean, maybe pay a fine. Yeah, sure, you'll be a felon for life but this way will be the most minimal impact for you and your family. Now sign here...."
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Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
Originally Posted By XterraJohn:
The real question is probably how many people has the BATFE ever actually decided to prosecute based on a questionable rule? I imagine that with few exceptions they only really prosecute cases that are a relatively easy win. Remember, even in the Olofson case they didn't charge him with manufacturing or possessing but simply transferring.

I might be completely wrong though.


The truth to that is that is that very , very few cases actually get far because the defendants are sat down by their public defender and told "look, they have all the money in the world for lawyers to prosecute you and will tie your shit up until you fucking DIE in court. You'll lose your house defending yourself, if they haven't seized it already pencil whipping your charges into RICO statute violations, either way you won't have a house when you are done. Or your job from the months you have missed work. My advice is to take the plea deal they are offering. You essentially admit guilt and wear a tether for a year and keep your nose clean, maybe pay a fine. Yeah, sure, you'll be a felon for life but this way will be the most minimal impact for you and your family. Now sign here...."
Do you have a pen I can borrow?
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 7:36:06 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Seanquigley:
They lost a lawsuit from a landlord for damaging an apartment that the ATF rented, they tore out a wall and damaged plumbing and some other shit.
Was part of that whole episode where the ATF convinced a mentally challenged individual to get a neck tattoo of the logo of their fake store.
View Quote
They also got sued over the that neck tattoo, I belive.

Any more info?

Link maybe?

Never heard about that
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 7:41:14 PM EST
You don't lose many cases when the courts are bought and paid for for you.

Link Posted: 1/18/2015 11:59:37 PM EST
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Originally Posted By abtex1:
You don't lose many cases when the courts are bought and paid for for you.

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Yeah that was a definite area the Founding Fathers missed. Unlimited funds to prosecute is a real problem.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 12:03:27 AM EST
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Originally Posted By safe1:
I hope NOLO adds his case to the list.
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I hope so too. Go Nolo!
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