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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/3/2005 6:45:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 7:03:28 AM EDT by 1IV]
I am just sick about the speed and efficiency of our responce to the hurricane.... It is an anemic, weak, slow, responce this week. And yes I know it is going to get better. But if the responce is this slow to a huricane, WTF is going to happen if one of our enemies hits us hard in a population center. I really hope all of you have a bug out responce ready. At least people finaly got a taste of bile and blood. Maybe the Warnings to evacuate will be heeded from now on. And the bugle is sounding for those of us paying attention and preparing. I am talking about a L.A. Kalifornia, or a NewYork, or a Detroit. Detroit would be ugly in the dead of winter. And I am talking about a weapon that like a flood denies the territory to those who lived there.

Edit: I love the hint the President just gave us that there is alot of " Burocracy" in the way. There are alot of suits, with their fiefdoms of power, that are gonna be out on their ass. Federal, state, and Local. That Mayor of N.O. was over the top. ... He inspires leadership.... Not!
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:49:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 6:51:58 AM EDT by spartacus2002]
The bureaucrats lack the will to act. You gotta understand, the head of FEMA and the mayor/governor don't get those jobs because they are efficient managers and leaders; I think the head of FEMA is a political appointee, and would thus get his job as payback for political support instead of based on his competence as a leader/manager. Same for the elected officials; they get elected because of their gladhanding skills and ability to promise anything to their constituents, not because they are effective/competent managers.

I was concerned about the thread title, because NO is a pretty major city when you consider the cargo that goes thru the Port of NO and all the petrochemical refining there, but I think you're talking more about the number of humans in the city, right?
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:52:30 AM EDT
Maybe people should take some responsibility and demonstrate a little bit of self-reliance.

In any event, as to your origninal quesiton it will be the same as here. The problem is getting into these areas and I don't think most appreciate the widespread devastation. On top of that, people trying to get in and help are being shot, robbed, etc. To Hell with 'em. Want to live like animals? That's what you get.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:56:10 AM EDT
Here's the scoop on FEMA head


Michael D. Brown was nominated by President George W. Bush as the first Under Secretary of Emergency Preparedness and Response in the newly created Department of Homeland Security in January 2003.

Previously, Mr. Brown served as FEMA's Deputy Director and the agency's General Counsel. Shortly after the September 11th terrorist attacks, Mr. Brown served on the President's Consequence Management Principal's Committee, which acted as the White House's policy coordination group for the federal domestic response to the attacks. Later, the President asked him to head the Consequence Management Working Group to identify and resolve key issues regarding the federal response plan. In August 2002, President Bush appointed him to the Transition Planning Office for the new Department of Homeland Security, serving as the transition leader for the EP&R Division.

Prior to joining FEMA, Mr. Brown practiced law in Colorado and Oklahoma, where he served as a bar examiner on ethics and professional responsibility for the Oklahoma Supreme Court and as a hearing examiner for the Colorado Supreme Court. He had been appointed as a special prosecutor in police disciplinary matters. While attending law school he was appointed by the Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee of the Oklahoma Legislature as the Finance Committee Staff Director, where he oversaw state fiscal issues. His background in state and local government also includes serving as an assistant city manager with emergency services oversight and as a city councilman.

Mr. Brown was also an adjunct professor of law for the Oklahoma City University.



So, you have a lawyer with some minimal emergency services experience years ago who is deep in bed with politics at the state and now federal level.

Now, imagine you had the executive director of the Red Cross or Salvation Army with 10+ years experience in disaster relief -- much higher level of competence, I'd imagine.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:57:16 AM EDT
Could'a been much worse and slammed into Houston.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:16:51 AM EDT
I wouldn't have wanted it to hit Houston but if it did, it wouldn't have been worse. Most know how to prepare for a storm. Besides that, Houston is ABOVE sea level. That means water would have drained out eventually.

When Allison hit Houston, there wasn't mush in the way of preparations. I left to go to work before it hit and told my wife to go stay with my parents. She finally did later that night. First she went to the store to get supplies and on the way out mentioned to the manager that she couldn't believe they weren't packed due to the storm coming. His response was "What storm." Before she could walk out he was calling everyone up to the front for a meeting. Days after it first hit, I called my wife at my parents and she told me she was heading back because the weather man said it was all over. I told her to wait 3 more days. After she went back, she was flooded in at our apartments, which didn't have hardly any water in the parking lot, but the street was a river. The storm came back and the water from the North came in. She doesn't think I'm a complete idiot now though.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:17:56 AM EDT
You guys should try and do better.

If you have ever organized ANYTHING involving more than, oh, ONE person, you can see just how quickly it becomes a clusterfuck.

Try this experiment: this morning, call 5 of your friends and try and arrange a get together for as soon as possible. Say, a BBQ, a dinner party, or an impromptu shoot. Report back on how it goes, and how quickly you could come to an agreed on time and place. It's like herding cats.


Now, imagine it were an emergency situation, multiply the numbers of people by 100,000, throw in hysterical/sick/injured/hungry/angry "customers", cut the number of people available to help you by half, and see where that ends up. Even worse, add in the time urgency nature of these crises, and the pressure increases.

It's a nightmare, and a surprise anything happens at all. You should expect the worst, and you'll be pleasantly surprised when anything good ever happens.

Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:19:10 AM EDT
Personally, I do not care if a major city gets wiped out. That may less bureaucrats and socialists to worry about.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:23:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
Here's the scoop on FEMA head
...snip...

So, you have a lawyer with some minimal emergency services experience years ago who is deep in bed with politics at the state and now federal level.

Now, imagine you had the executive director of the Red Cross or Salvation Army with 10+ years experience in disaster relief -- much higher level of competence, I'd imagine.





He's like a restaurant manager- he doesn't have to know how to cook, clean, wait tables, or count the cash at night. He just has to manage those who do.

You think the head of Boeing can build planes?

I'd want someone who is smart, knows how to organize, and can manage people. He can learn specifics on the job.

Kinda like the President.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:25:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:36:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i don't think the federal response was bad at all. the state and local level was not in place to give the buffer that the feds needed to respond.

this is 100% a state of La failure.



I agree with this statement 100%
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:49:17 AM EDT
Why is everyone getting on the blame the Federal government bandwagon? As some of the guys states this a local failure. Why were those buses that were flooded not used? Why were the LEOs not organized so that they would have a HQ and someone giving orders.

This is a local failure pure and simple and now they want to blame the Feds. Where was the loudmouth mayor before the storm?
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:54:28 AM EDT
I plan on watching it on tv, just like this time.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:54:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
Here's the scoop on FEMA head


Michael D. Brown was nominated by President George W. Bush as the first Under Secretary of Emergency Preparedness and Response in the newly created Department of Homeland Security in January 2003.

Previously, Mr. Brown served as FEMA's Deputy Director and the agency's General Counsel. Shortly after the September 11th terrorist attacks, Mr. Brown served on the President's Consequence Management Principal's Committee, which acted as the White House's policy coordination group for the federal domestic response to the attacks. Later, the President asked him to head the Consequence Management Working Group to identify and resolve key issues regarding the federal response plan. In August 2002, President Bush appointed him to the Transition Planning Office for the new Department of Homeland Security, serving as the transition leader for the EP&R Division.

Prior to joining FEMA, Mr. Brown practiced law in Colorado and Oklahoma, where he served as a bar examiner on ethics and professional responsibility for the Oklahoma Supreme Court and as a hearing examiner for the Colorado Supreme Court. He had been appointed as a special prosecutor in police disciplinary matters. While attending law school he was appointed by the Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee of the Oklahoma Legislature as the Finance Committee Staff Director, where he oversaw state fiscal issues. His background in state and local government also includes serving as an assistant city manager with emergency services oversight and as a city councilman.

Mr. Brown was also an adjunct professor of law for the Oklahoma City University.



So, you have a lawyer with some minimal emergency services experience years ago who is deep in bed with politics at the state and now federal level.

Now, imagine you had the executive director of the Red Cross or Salvation Army with 10+ years experience in disaster relief -- much higher level of competence, I'd imagine.




Unfortunately, there aren't many people in Washington who aren't lawyers

Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:09:59 AM EDT
I hope they do destroy Detroit. Then we can rebuild it. Its basically unclaimable in its current state.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:12:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i don't think the federal response was bad at all. the state and local level was not in place to give the buffer that the feds needed to respond.

this is 100% a state of La failure.



Big +1

It's the state and City's job FIRST .

For example , did you know that NO's Levy commission
has used the money they get to buy a Casino , A private
marina and a Jet . They have also invested Millions in
private ventures .

The more I dig and hear , the corruption in LA and NO's
government is unbelievable
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:13:27 AM EDT
You mean like, oh, say, New Orleans?
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:17:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chrome1:

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i don't think the federal response was bad at all. the state and local level was not in place to give the buffer that the feds needed to respond.

this is 100% a state of La failure.



Big +1

It's the state and City's job FIRST .

For example , did you know that NO's Levy commission
has used the money they get to buy a Casino , A private
marina and a Jet . They have also invested Millions in
private ventures .

The more I dig and hear , the corruption in LA and NO's
government is unbelievable



its always been like that
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:20:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 8:21:39 AM EDT by macro]

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
Personally, I do not care if a major city gets wiped out. That may less bureaucrats and socialists to worry about.



Problem is, the 'masses' will demand that it be rebuilt.....with our tax dollar!

Other than that, I agree totally.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:21:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1IV:
WTF is going to happen if one of our enemies hits us hard in a population center.

Rebuild it somewhere else in Texas. We've got plenty of land, energy independent, access to resources and money, and plenty of guns.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:33:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 8:34:38 AM EDT by Paul]
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:36:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chrome1:

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i don't think the federal response was bad at all. the state and local level was not in place to give the buffer that the feds needed to respond.

this is 100% a state of La failure.



Big +1

It's the state and City's job FIRST .

For example , did you know that NO's Levy commission
has used the money they get to buy a Casino , A private
marina and a Jet . They have also invested Millions in
private ventures .

The more I dig and hear , the corruption in LA and NO's
government is unbelievable




And now those investments are shot to shit. The levy was never fixed. There ought to be a lynching coming up soon; but it won't happen.

Chris
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:44:11 AM EDT
It is hard to understand the massive destruction unless you see it for yourself.. I have, and granted FEMA and other agencies have been slow but the facts are these. There is no power which is pretty much required for most operations to be sustained, then the place is a lake. Even if you have assets on the ground access to most places is limited. You have no large airfields open. We had to fly into Gulf Port(on a C-130) and that field was uncontrolled, crowded and a general clusterfuck of aircraft, radio traffic being walked on by everyone in the air and I am surprised with the amount of traffic in the air there hasn't been a mishap. This is on a scale that nobody could have imagined I believe.

We have the closest event to a nuclear attack on a city that we can get without the actual attack. A major city destroyed.

Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:44:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DScott:
You guys should try and do better. If you have ever organized ANYTHING involving more than, oh, ONE person, you can see just how quickly it becomes a clusterfuck. Try this experiment: this morning, call 5 of your friends and try and arrange a get together for as soon as possible. Say, a BBQ, a dinner party, or an impromptu shoot. Report back on how it goes, and how quickly you could come to an agreed on time and place. It's like herding cats.

While I understand what you're getting at, your experiment really doesn't ring true. The big difference is you can't order your friends to do something whereas emergency response and troops can be ordered to do something. A life and death matter will motivate good people to do the right thing. A BBQ will not.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:47:20 AM EDT

But one of the drill participants, Col. Michael L. Brown, then-deputy director of the Louisiana emergency preparedness department, told the Baton Rouge Advocate newspaper that, in a worst-case scenario, there would be only so much government agencies could do.

"Residents need to know they'll be on their own for several days in a situation like this," Brown, who is not related to the FEMA director, told the paper.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/02/hurricane.drill/index.html



Does anyone want to tell me this was the Federal government's fault?

Bullshit! It's nobody's fault that it happened. But the suffering came as a result of piss poor planning by both the local and state governments as well as poor prepardness by the populace.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:56:13 AM EDT
I'm thinking that a major city WAS destroyed. Do we ever hear about the horrible(local) things that happen in third world countries after an event like this? We will be having another SHTF someday. Will you be prepared? I don't think so. How can one prepare for something like this. YOU CAN'T. You must adlib to the Nth degree. I hope I don't see it in my lifetime.

AB
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:59:33 AM EDT
Like the old saying goes "Lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on mine"
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:59:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 9:00:24 AM EDT by Spade]
The FEMA chief needs to be fired and replaced by somebody who knows what the hell they are doing. Quite frankly, I'd feel better if major emergency response was just straight up handled by the military/National Guard.

Okay, I understand a lot of the problems that they had at the start, but I think FEMA dropped the ball here and needs a shake up. This is an area that does not need or require buerocracy. Start cutting heads, and getting rid of the useless. FEMA should be a slim, fast, efficent org. Anything else is stupid.

Remember, this storm could've been worse.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 9:04:58 AM EDT

What are we going to do if a really major city gets wiped out?


Well, if it's a city such as NOLA, I guess we'll look elsewhere for whatever thay supply that the rest of the country needs.

Eddie
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 9:43:09 AM EDT
Proper planning prevents piss poor performance.

There was a lack of proper planning on many levels here, and starting with the people of N.O.

I bet among the thousands of those stranded in the city, not ONE of them had an inexpensive hand operated water filter to make water, or at least a week's backup supply of food on hand. But I bet they ALL had cable t.v.,and beer on Friday nights.

The levee's should have been made to withstand a CAT-4 hurrican. There were tons of requests for more funding, and those raising the red flag for years, but nothing was done. Blame N.O. politicians, and Washington bureaucrats.

N.O. L.E. is historically the most corrupt in the nation, no wonder their perfomance in this situation.

N.O. is also filled with liberal democrats--their corrupt "social welfare" system has come home to roost.

FEMA also is screwing the pooch on many fronts. The response with a detailed plan has been slow. There is apparently no one in charge of this mess that can lay out a detailed plan of attack. They would see much less criticism if they just laid out the plant to deal with the 10 most pressing details--even if it took a week to put it into action. But they haven't done that.

And there is NO talk of what they are going to do about the coming disease crisis. That place is already infested wth mosquitos and other disease vectors. They should have airplanes spraying DDT RIGHT NOW. But I'm sure they can't due to "EPA regulations."

We are seeing bureacracy at work my friends. The response couldn't have gone any other way.

That is why we all need to be responsible for ourselves.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 12:21:18 PM EDT
I just wrapped my head around a truth... If you sucumb to the poverty lie, and rely on the handouts and charity of a ghetto / welfare attitude, and raise childeren, and build a inheritance of dependance on Goverment. Then "You" As a Mom, a Dad, A person, have put your head in a noose. My God we abolished slavery, indentured serveatude, and we allow people to just keep volunteering for a generation with no future outside of thirty city blocks. If we as a people can not make inroads into that ghetto / welfare tumor in our citys, and reduce their size, then we are held hostage to their dreamless lives.

I just stopped caring about those people.
I just decided that all I can worry about is the people around me that I can affect and "save."

I was really getting wrapped in the lets save em all and give em all a new house to live in attitude.

Fuck em I will give them the hammer and nails, but they have to build their home.

Link Posted: 9/3/2005 12:25:04 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 1:40:23 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 1:50:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By magnum_99:
Proper planning prevents piss poor performance.

There was a lack of proper planning on many levels here, and starting with the people of N.O.

I bet among the thousands of those stranded in the city, not ONE of them had an inexpensive hand operated water filter to make water, or at least a week's backup supply of food on hand. But I bet they ALL had cable t.v.,and beer on Friday nights.



Do water filters filter out petroleum products(gasoline)? I don't think so, so I am asking
(they used to tell us to fill up our tubs with water when bad storms were coming)
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 1:51:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chrome1:

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i don't think the federal response was bad at all. the state and local level was not in place to give the buffer that the feds needed to respond.

this is 100% a state of La failure.



Big +1

It's the state and City's job FIRST .

For example , did you know that NO's Levy commission
has used the money they get to buy a Casino , A private
marina and a Jet . They have also invested Millions in
private ventures .


The more I dig and hear , the corruption in LA and NO's
government is unbelievable



Any sources for this? I keep hearing on the tube that GWB is reason the levies failed because he cut funding.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 2:21:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i don't think the federal response was bad at all. the state and local level was not in place to give the buffer that the feds needed to respond.

this is 100% a state of La failure.




+1000


Bigfeet
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 2:23:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CZ75_9MM:
Like the old saying goes "Lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency handout on mine"

Link Posted: 9/3/2005 2:31:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
Personally, I do not care if a major city gets wiped out. That may less bureaucrats and socialists to worry about.



Chicago?
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 3:27:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DScott:

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
Here's the scoop on FEMA head
...snip...

So, you have a lawyer with some minimal emergency services experience years ago who is deep in bed with politics at the state and now federal level.

Now, imagine you had the executive director of the Red Cross or Salvation Army with 10+ years experience in disaster relief -- much higher level of competence, I'd imagine.



He's like a restaurant manager- he doesn't have to know how to cook, clean, wait tables, or count the cash at night. He just has to manage those who do.

You think the head of Boeing can build planes?

I'd want someone who is smart, knows how to organize, and can manage people. He can learn specifics on the job.

Kinda like the President.


Maybe that is the reason why some of the businesses in the USA are in such big trouble. The guy/gal at the top is supposed to set the tone of the company, and suppose to have a vision of where the company is going. It is very difficult to implement someone else's vision. Witness the former head of Hewlet-Pakard and AT&T were run by a CEO who was not an engineer, and she ran both companies into the ground, litterally.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 3:44:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:

Originally Posted By DScott:

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
Here's the scoop on FEMA head
...snip...

So, you have a lawyer with some minimal emergency services experience years ago who is deep in bed with politics at the state and now federal level.

Now, imagine you had the executive director of the Red Cross or Salvation Army with 10+ years experience in disaster relief -- much higher level of competence, I'd imagine.



He's like a restaurant manager- he doesn't have to know how to cook, clean, wait tables, or count the cash at night. He just has to manage those who do.

You think the head of Boeing can build planes?

I'd want someone who is smart, knows how to organize, and can manage people. He can learn specifics on the job.

Kinda like the President.


Maybe that is the reason why some of the businesses in the USA are in such big trouble. The guy/gal at the top is supposed to set the tone of the company, and suppose to have a vision of where the company is going. It is very difficult to implement someone else's vision. Witness the former head of Hewlet-Pakard and AT&T were run by a CEO who was not an engineer, and she ran both companies into the ground, litterally.



That's my point. The head of FEMA might not know how to insert a needle in a vein for giving a dehydrated evacuee an I.V., but he had better damn well know he's gotta get medics and IVs onsite ASAP, and he better have the willpower to say "screw the red tape, people will be dying soon if we don't get our asses in gear."

That Brown guy comes across like a condescending political worm. Please, compare and contrast with LTG Honore for example.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 3:46:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:32:11 PM EDT
A major city has been wiped out...

Emergency responses usually take at least 3 days after the event because of the logistics of getting the aid to where it is needed. The first people that make the aid determinations are the local and state governments. The mayor of NO should have ordered the evacuation a day earlier and used the school buses to carry as many people that lacked transportation as they could. The next key step is to set up a tent city to support the refugees and have medical, sanitation, and food/water services available. How come nobody trucked porta-johns to the Superdome? I don't think anybody expected the sheer magnitude of the disaster.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:36:07 PM EDT
They had a million people living there, i think one already has been.
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