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So I no longer work for this company in question.
But the work I did while I was there is on my online portfolio. They want me to remove it. Do I have to do this? What are the legal reasons or laws making me do this. They are just small images of the websites and catalogs I created while I was there. I have never had a company say this to me in the past. Thoughts? |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2007 2:34:29 PM EST
Fair Use
In my experience, if you are not selling or profiting from the work or subject of the work, and only using it as an example of you talent and style, you are covered by "Fair Use." YMMMV |
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KS, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2007 2:40:59 PM EST
I had this happen too when I quit working at my job.
If you have a small image and a link to the site, then that is fair use - there is nothing they can do. You have a right to have examples for your portfolio. My boss tried to muscle me - so I got a copyright lawyer on the phone. He gave me 3 ways to change my site - but I took the safest route because I NEVER wanted to hear from him again. I need to redo my site because I have enough work now I dont need to ever link my old work. BTW - I still hate my old boss - FUCKIN' ASSHOLE!! http://robot44.com/portfolio/index.shtml here is my uber safe page - with my own work as thumbnails and the rest as a resume. FUCK MY OLD BOSS |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2007 2:44:36 PM EST
How much are they willing to pay you to remove it?
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Posted: 2/26/2007 2:47:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2007 2:50:43 PM EST by The_Macallan]
If they payed you to produce it - they own it. Unless you have something stated in a contract, they have copyrights to it.
I've been down this road on the production-for-pay side. Now if you produced the material on your own time using your own hardward and software - you own the copyright. As far as the "fair use" - if they own the copyright and decide to take it down, you can't fight them. But as long as it's up and freely available, the gray areas of "fair use" may allow you to continue using it. But again, if they paid you to produce it and it's hosted on their servers, it's theirs to do with what they like. |
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Posted: 2/26/2007 2:50:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2007 2:51:49 PM EST by NoVaGator]
I don't agree. What you did for your prior employer sounds like "work for hire" to me. I don't think fair use applies to self-promotion for commercial purposes But I'm not a lawyer, so again....YMMV |
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Posted: 2/26/2007 2:52:08 PM EST
Nope, I produced it at work in their office. I got a higher paying job Friday and the boss got all pissy with me over it. Gave him a two week notice and he decided I should leave instead. So I get to go to Utah and go camping until I start my new job in two weeks.  I have always gotten along with the guy. Kinda surprised by his reaction. Acted like I broke up with him or something. Gave him a chance to match what the other company was offering me. But he is the type that plays power games and since I had a back up plan he didn't like it. |
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KS, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2007 3:10:13 PM EST
OMG - sounds like some stunt my old boss would pull. I know he did it with this one guy.
Look - the fact is usually the site owners (clients) own the copy right. All the work you did there belongs to your boss or the client. BUT - there is NOTHING stopping you from linking to the site and saying you did _______ on it. (design, html, css, etc). Talking to the lawyer, a thumbnail is 110% within your rights. A 150x150 thumbnail of one or two pages of a site falls under fair use. Now - fair use is open to interrpretation - but unless your boss is rolling in extra doh, he wont be spending money to try to contest it in court. My asshole boss tried to sick the CLIENTS on me - even after I agreed to take it down. Asshole. It back fired a bit, I explained what REALLY was going on and got permission from some of them. Eventually - I stole one of his larger clients from him. Pay back is a bitch. |
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Posted: 2/26/2007 6:16:01 PM EST
The small samples of work I did are on my website as server. Does this make a difference? |
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Posted: 2/26/2007 6:27:48 PM EST
It's still work produced as work for hire. I manage the Independent Contractor/Work for Hire agreements with about 550 photographers. I own the copyright for all images that they capture when working on my dime. If one of them wants to use one of the images in their portfolio, it's OK with me..... but they have to indicate the proper copyright. It's bad business to selectively enforce your copyright. |
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Posted: 2/26/2007 6:54:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2007 7:00:10 PM EST by The_Macallan]
Can you "hide" it on another site or password protect it so they don't have access to it? Or would that defeat the purpose of posting it online? btw... if it's that one website you had a link to here a while back ("Xodus" IIRC), that was very cool - you do very good work. 
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Posted: 2/26/2007 7:00:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2007 7:03:01 PM EST by ilikelegs]
Thanks Mac. This is my website... Xzodus Need Flash player Is this the one you were talking about? It would defeat the purpose of posting it online since I am just including it in the work I do. I took there stuff down for now and renamed the button. |
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Posted: 2/26/2007 7:04:57 PM EST
That's the one. |
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Posted: 2/26/2007 7:28:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2007 7:32:38 PM EST by ilikelegs]
Here is what the new or second flash site is gonna look like.
Almost ready to bring it into flash and animate it. Everything will be animated. The aperature will open and close to play movies. The gears will move and bring in the secondary screen. The gauges will move and steam will blow out each time a button is clicked to load up the other animations. Will probably change the buttons at the top. They suck... Its gonna be a lot of work to make it all work and load prperly. Its my Jules Verne version.  
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Posted: 2/26/2007 7:34:56 PM EST
Did you have a hiring agreement?
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Posted: 2/26/2007 7:42:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2007 7:46:11 PM EST by ilikelegs]
I never signed anything other than a W2. There was a company handbook, don't know where I put it. I never signed the offer letter either. When I started working for him he had gotten pissed off and fired the entire graphics department. 7 people all at once. They were over worked and complaining. So...needless to say I hit the ground running when I started trying to fix everything and just never signed anything other than the W2 form. Stayed with it til after Christmas and started looking again after the Holidays were over. He is pretty thuro so I am sure he had that area covered. Has numeroous lawyers working for him and was able to shut down a website blog about his company where disgrunteled emplyee's voice their anger at him. I won't resort to that or name the company though. |
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KS, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2007 7:42:58 PM EST
Very nice stuff.
First off - you arent contesting any of the copy rights. Put something in the footer that says to the effect that "all trademarks and copyrights are property of their respective owners" You have a right to post about projects you worked on. A quick screen grab of a website or a thumbnail of a logo for portfolio purposes is within your rights. Originally I had an indepth review of each site I worked on and the exact work I did. But I took that down to avoid ever talking to that asshole again. Fucker. When I get time to add the new work from the past two years, i will have more indepth information. That is my only advice to you. No one cares what software you used. You can put a list of programs you know on another page. But when you look at a project people want to know what you did - design, planning, coding, etc. Still - nice stuff. My photoshop work is soooo out dated I am embarrassed. I should take a refresher course so my stuff would start looking different. I am in a rut :o( |
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Posted: 2/26/2007 7:50:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2007 7:54:18 PM EST by jrkarp]
There are 4 factors to be weighed for fair use, so no one fact is dispositive:
However, this sounds like a work for hire, which would make the copyright status pretty cut and dry. It is rarely a good idea to infringe and plan on using fair use unless you have a solid claim to it. Like I said, no one factor is dispositive, but commercial use does weigh heavily against fair use. Not to mention that there may be DMCA implications here - your hosting company might be obligated to take the material down if they are given a proper notice. |
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Posted: 2/26/2007 7:52:22 PM EST
This does not insulate you against a claim for copyright infringement. All it says is that you are making no claim to copyright.
There is no absolute right to this. It is dangerous to give legal advice when you don't know what you are talking about. |
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Posted: 2/26/2007 7:53:55 PM EST
Thanks Mister44,
I just wanted to keep all the stuff I worked on for him on my site. Don't want to cause him or have any real trouble with him. We got along just fine the whole time I was employed there. He just kinda flipped out on me since I left and found a better job. I still kinda respect the guy. I gave him plenty of notice and was very respectful to him. Don't know why he reacted the way he did. Honestly feel he was a power player and didn't like the fact that I had a better job and used it as leverage to get more money from him if he wanted me to stay. Its business after all... |
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Posted: 2/26/2007 7:57:04 PM EST
I already took the stuff down for now. I am just exploring the posibilities of keeping it. Soon I am going to change my websites name (Domani name) anyway so I doubt he will ever see it then. |
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KS, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2007 9:11:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2007 9:15:37 PM EST by Mister44]
Yeah - you do. While the client retains the copyright - one can use said work in their portfolio under the fair use clause of copyright law. My wife is a lawyer. While she does mainly labor law, one of her classmates does copyright and trademark laws. When I had this exact problem he told me I just had to make some text adjustment but that I was 100% within my rights. I will try to find his email and ask for an explanation for you, if you wish. Whats funny is - if its published work on the net - that copyright is retained by your client - not your boss (unless the work was for the company you work for - not a 3rd party client). If you want to go the 'safe' route like I did - remove the pictures but keep the name, link, and what you did. Go around to ex-clients, give your story, and ask for permission. If a designer couldnt use the work he did in his portfolio because of a pissy ex-boss - lots of us would have a barren black binder. Hell - make him shell out 300 bucks to have a lawyer right you up a cease and desist letter. Anyone can sue anyone - whether you win often depends on your lawyer. Because 'fair use' is open to interpretation, there is some grey area. But really - is your boss that pissy he is willing to dump thousands to try to strong arm you? Probably not. ETA - fight for your rights. Find a copyright lawyer and get some advice. If you got someone on your side 'fair use' becomes your friend. Your ex-boss is no longer your friend. |
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Posted: 2/27/2007 3:40:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/27/2007 3:46:08 AM EST by jrkarp]
There is no absolute right. Fair use is never a guarantee. Period. There may be case law that suggests that use for a portfolio is permissible under certain circumstances, but EVERY assertion of fair use is taken on a case by case basis, based on case law and the four factors I listed above - which are taken directly from 17 U.S.C. 107, which is the statute that deals with fair use. I am a lawyer and I have a background in intellectual property law. ETA: This issue can be settled in employment agreements or contracts, which is far better than litigation. A very simple clause can guarantee the artist rights to use for their portfolio while protecting the copyrights of the employer. |
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Posted: 2/27/2007 3:43:11 AM EST
I'll give you a better one. My company is demanding that I assign a domain name that I own to them. The only thing I have on the domain name is a direct link to the company website. What do you think about that?
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Posted: 2/27/2007 3:44:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/27/2007 3:47:26 AM EST by jrkarp]
Does the domain name contain a company trademark or is it substantially or confusingly similar to a company trademark? You didn't act in bad faith to profit from the domain name when you registered it, did you? |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 2/27/2007 4:07:03 AM EST
i have nothing to add about copyright, but am curious how much you would charge for something like the xzodus site and how long it would take. one of our groups is in the process of outsourcing a site and the designer, in my observation, is dragging on it and may well be unable to deliver a product. it involves video clips and coordinating transcripts, and he seems to be having trouble with the presentation.
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Posted: 2/27/2007 4:26:01 AM EST
A site as complex as the xzodus site would be around $6,000. But it doesn't have to be that comlpex. There is a lot going on in the background and It has a total of around 70+ individual movies its bringing in on certain timeline and button commands. The Xzodus site took me 1.5 months to make. I will send you an IM a nice Flash that is around $3000 in a IM as not to give away the company I am doing this work for. |
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Posted: 2/27/2007 5:44:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/27/2007 5:47:18 AM EST by shotar]
No it does not contain a company trademark. The company slogan ( that I came up with BTW ) is " We Know People ". They do not own we knowpeople.com it belongs to some other entity. My domain is weknow(specific profession) for my legal practice group which I started. It now points only to the company website. His stated fear is that I might some day leave the company ( where I have no possibility of equity interest ) and take my name with me. |
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Posted: 2/27/2007 5:46:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/27/2007 5:56:50 AM EST by jrkarp]
So on what basis are they making this demand? |
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Posted: 2/27/2007 5:47:50 AM EST
That I might through my own efforts build the brand, then leave the company. |
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Posted: 2/27/2007 5:53:05 AM EST
I further appologize to legs for hijacking his thread. It struck today and seemed somewhat a similar problem.
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Posted: 2/27/2007 5:57:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/27/2007 6:03:38 AM EST by jrkarp]
I've got to think about this. There are several possible angles at play here, but I would need to know more. |
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Posted: 2/27/2007 6:17:28 AM EST
Yeah, you can see my dillemma. Fact is though, i like our CEO. He has been pretty good to us and helped alot through tough times. On the other side of the equation, I know full well that he intends to build this company for his children and he's not getting younger. Most of his kids already work for the company. He has offered management of the legal group, but no equity possibility as he will keep it in the family. |
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KS, USA
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Posted: 2/27/2007 7:02:46 AM EST
I think it is bullshit. Depending on how the domain name is worded vs their name (IF it is trademarked) they might have a case. For example if the companyies name is widgets and you registered widgets.net. The courts have gone both ways with it with cyber squatters. In some cases they squatter kept the domain - in others they were ordered to hand it over. I would sell it to him for a profit. Tell him it would cast more to hire a lawyer to write you a letter. If he doesnt want to pay - take the site down - make it blank. Dont be bullied. |
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Posted: 2/27/2007 7:16:18 AM EST
Just take down the ghey pr0n of you and TRG already and get over it. Sheesh. You know he hasn't been faithful to you in all this time anyhow. You found someone new - well, good for you. No need to hide it in terms of "I got a new job" and all that nonsense...
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KS, USA
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Posted: 2/27/2007 7:25:11 AM EST
Here - thought I would share. If you haven't figured it out, I am still bitter about my ex-boss and venom runs through my veins when I think about it.
Here is what it looks like when your boss is too cheap to hire a lawyer and decides to write a threatening letter himself. Note how he contradicts himself saying that he owns the copyright - and then that the client does. My wife, who is a lawyer, laughed at it, because he is trying so hard to sound official and lawyer-like, but failing. Anyway - I was going to black out names and shit - but I don't fucking care who sees this or who knows. This was some therapy for me, so that I could comment at the end. Enjoy this PDF - note it is nearly 1MB large. mister44.com/projects/humor/David_Saga.pdf |
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Posted: 2/27/2007 7:30:08 AM EST
I'd tell them that if they wish to buy the domain from you, that you're open to offers. |
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