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Posted: 5/17/2005 3:08:41 PM EST
There is one idea where I find myself in agreement with most Democrats. And that is the idea that the United States "can do better for it's citizens."

This means we are FAR more capable of taking care of our own than most countries and I don't just mean shithole third worlds.

I temper this thought with the knowledge that "our country" permits the socialism of most of western Europe. If we didn't provide for their national security via NATO those western European countries would not be able to fund their socialism. And that day is coming as we remove our military presence from the area.

At the same time I don't want to create new "legions of needy" by taxing them into a lower income to help "the needy."

But I think it is ridiculous that people who actually work cannot make enough to provide for themsleves and a average size family (something a high school graduate could do in the 1950s).

I also think it is a sad commentary that a person who works but can't afford health care can get sick and NOT be able to take care of himself adequately.

The idea that they have no recourse other than to "die quietly" is offensive.

I think the United States "should" be capable of putting into place minimum safeguards that would protect those who work and live in the lower tax brackets from the extremes of homelessness, hunger and major health risks.

But I don't see the solution as "taxing everyone else" to fund it.

The needy (have nots) greatly outnumber the fortunate (haves) and if we level the playing field we will become a nation of "have nots" who have only slightly more than they had yesterday.

So we need to create a situation where the "have nots" can get more by working (which many are willing to do or already doing).

The first OBVIOUS solution is to get rid of the "will nots." These are the people who do NOT contribute but burden the nation. These are the illegal immigrants who by there mere presence take away from the "have nots." These are the criminals who rob and scam the system and have incomes (usually illegal in nature) while receiving services. These are the people who "can" work and contribute but are unwilling but DO take advantage of social services.

Expelling the illegals, arresting the criminals and ending support for those who don't earn it is a start. But even if we could successfully do that it probably still wouldn't solve the problem 100%.

We could get rid of pointless expenditure such as social programs with no real merit (Midnight basketball, etc.) that rob funds from those who could most use them. We could reduce the salary of Congress members to that of the average median income (which is all they deserve and would provide motivation to improve the average income of most Americans.) In fact the operating size of government should be based upon the productivity and strength of our economy more than anything else. In times of depression Hoover should live in a "Hooverville" and Carter should have earned a "recession era" salary and been forced to wait in the same gas lines. Bill Clinton, for all his other faults, was smart enough not to dick up the economy and in that respect at least earned his check.

We could stop giving huge sums of money to countries that don't need or deserve it such as Israel in the former case and most Arab countries in the later case. In fact most of our foreign aid should go to those in "this country" who are in need. I feel sorry for the tsunami victims but I don't think those people ever helped our homeless and hungry. If we can spare it after taking care of our own then that is another matter. Until then our foreign aid should be based soley on "need" and only provided to those who help us in our times of need.

We could stop sending jobs overseas and making domestic production too high to be cost effective. Unions have so fucked up this country that it is now cheaper to make shit in another country and import it. Unions have a place and people who dedicate their lives to a job deserve "some" consideration but what they currently demand and get is absurd. It should cost more for a US company to have production overseas (even given the cheaper labor) and import their product than produce it domestically. There was a time when that is exactly what happened. When imported foreign products generally were higher priced than domestic goods and only in rare cases were they superior to American made goods. The US steel industry is the perfect example of the problem. We used to lead the world, now most steel comes from China. It is now cheaper to import than produce domestically.

And finally energy. This country, at great cost, discovered the secrets of nuclear energy. It is cheaper than any other energy source and despite what Jane Fonda may tell you it is no more harmful to the environment than coal or fossil fuels. Solar is cleaner and better and as soon as we figure out how to run the country on solar we should, but in the meantime we need to go nuclear. France and many western Euro countries use nuclear for more than half of their countries energy needs. There is no excuse for us to be oil dependent on hostile Arab countries when he have a nuclear capacity. The reaons nuclear is so expensive is because of the ridiculous eco restrictions and environmental safety requirements to build a nuclear power plant. We aren not Russia, we won't be guaranteed to evenetually have a Chernobyl event. In fact the track record of Russia for all of their cutting corners and shoddy approach to safety proves just how safe nuclear is. Russia has only had one major accident and they were just begging for something to go wrong for decades with their approach to safety. If we had a nuclear power plant in every state (except for states small enough to share) we could cut our electric bills in half and have a surplus of energy and that would leave fossil fuels for things like cars UNTIL we found an alternative for that.

Well those are some of the easy one anyway.

Certainly a better solution than raising taxes...
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 3:13:37 PM EST
Pass a federal law banning coverage exclusions in property casualty insurance. Give 24 hours' notice published only in The American Rifleman, American Hunter, First Freedom, and InSights magazines. Carpet bomb the cities.

Problem solved. All of America's citizens will be happy, healthy, and self-sufficient. The crime rate will be negligible. Tax rates will fall. Even the nutjobs of Islam will tread warily around us.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 3:16:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 3:21:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:
How do you prevent people from being lazy?



You can't. And that is why socialism never worked on it's own merits.

But you can put into place solutions where people who wish to contribute can have basic safeguards.

For those who wish to do "nothing" they have made their choice and I think we would decide they deserve NOTHING.

I'd rather they have NOTHING than somebody who does work and contribute be in need.

When they get tired of having NOTHING they can do something.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 3:27:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 3:30:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 4:12:38 PM EST
Don't take away incentive to work.

Means testing for eligibility.

Most programs have limited lifespan. Results testing.

Local testing first before national implementation. Maybe regional before national.

Better education about economics. Expanded information on what an employer pays to and on behalf of an employee. People need to know how much health care costs are in total. How much money is paid total to Social Security and Medicare. How much to State Disability Insurance.

Link Posted: 5/17/2005 4:14:15 PM EST
Gas chamber anyone who isn't productive.

Link Posted: 5/17/2005 4:20:49 PM EST
Stop all foreign aid to countries that Pangea doesn't personally approve of. Use those monies to develop and fund programs for non goal oriented individules to WORK for their money instead of getting a handout.

Well maintained and painted bridges, clean streets and buildings, good roads, plenty of modern schools. Everybody wins.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 4:24:50 PM EST
A nuclear warhead, pot of coffee, AR15, boatload of ammo, lucky rabbit's foot and a toaster oven.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 4:42:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 4:48:48 PM EST


CW
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 4:50:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:
How do you prevent people from being lazy?



Kill them. It worked for the Khmer Rouge
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 4:51:09 PM EST
Plan A: Maximum lifetime cap of 4 years on welfare benefits. Forsake voting rights while on welfare. Beggars can't be choosers.

Plan B: Mandatory vasectomy at birth. Reversable later in life, after proving an IQ above room temperature, and means of affording to have a child.

Plan C: Demolition of housing projects. With no prior warning for tenants.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 4:51:57 PM EST
Personally I am a pessimist about people getting off their butts and working.

So I like the current program where you can only go on welfare for a couple years, enough to give people a safety net if bad luck happens but not enough time that people choose welfare as a career choice.

Link Posted: 5/17/2005 4:54:28 PM EST
Follow the Constitution 100%. It's not the Feds or taxpayers responsibility. Any person that wants to work can and can move up the economic ladder.

Prior to Socialistic Security and other socialistic welfare programs, families, neighbors, friends, and churches took care of the needy as our founding fathers designed. Now those have been destroyed at the public feeding trough.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 4:54:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 4:56:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
On Plan C: Warning should be given. 6 months worth. Why? That's enough time for somebody to apply for public and private aid for vocational training, complete the training, get a job, find new living quarters and get moved.
Anybody who is still there in 6 months is just going to find another place to live. Naturally, the aid should still be available, for those with no resources of their own.



You misunderstood me. I meant with the tenants still inside.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 6:06:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 6:37:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

I believe that most people, with obstacles cleared out of their way and with proper information, will work for their own good without harming others, and will properly invest in their community and future.
My opponents take the approach that the average person can't or won't do that, or is too stupid and selfish to do it, so government has to do it for them.



With certain exceptions I believe that as well.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 6:42:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

I believe that most people, with obstacles cleared out of their way and with proper information, will work for their own good without harming others, and will properly invest in their community and future.
My opponents take the approach that the average person can't or won't do that, or is too stupid and selfish to do it, so government has to do it for them.



With certain exceptions I believe that as well.



What are the obstacles faced by somebody who gets free food, a free education, free housing, access to free religious training, rafts of private charity for the asking, et c. et c.? I don't get it. Having an twit for a single mom and no known father might be an obstacle, but that's not curable without a deliberate return to traditional values and shame-based enforcement of those values.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 7:00:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 9:44:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

The first OBVIOUS solution is to get rid of the "will nots." These are the people who do NOT contribute but burden the nation.




I vant to zee your papers, pleez. Yez, ...I zee..., Go to zee right.

You are on thin ice with this one already, Auggie.

Link Posted: 5/17/2005 9:46:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

We could stop sending jobs overseas and making domestic production too high to be cost effective. Unions have so fucked up this country that it is now cheaper to make shit in another country and import it.




But, Auggie, Unions were going to be the SOLUTION to the exact problem you are laying out. They were to create a workers' paradise.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 9:50:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/17/2005 9:51:52 PM EST by Mike_Mills]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

And finally energy. This country, at great cost, discovered the secrets of nuclear energy. It is cheaper than any other energy source and despite what Jane Fonda may tell you it is no more harmful to the environment than coal or fossil fuels. Solar is cleaner and better and as soon as we figure out how to run the country on solar we should, but in the meantime we need to go nuclear.





Speaking as a solar energy professional (for the last 28 years), I could not agree more. In this nation, we need a major paradigm shift on energy. If we did not need oil, we would not be in the middle east. If we were not hemorrhaging dollars importing oil, ...
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 9:54:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

The first OBVIOUS solution is to get rid of the "will nots." These are the people who do NOT contribute but burden the nation.




I vant to zee your papers, pleez. Yez, ...I zee..., Go to zee right.

You are on thin ice with this one already, Auggie.




Well actually you have to read the ENTIRE paragraph to see who are the "will nots."

Reposted for you...

The first OBVIOUS solution is to get rid of the "will nots." These are the people who do NOT contribute but burden the nation. These are the illegal immigrants who by there mere presence take away from the "have nots." These are the criminals who rob and scam the system and have incomes (usually illegal in nature) while receiving services. These are the people who "can" work and contribute but are unwilling but DO take advantage of social services.

So you see the "will nots" are not a group based upon race or religion or anything like you tried to imply. They are the criminals take advantage of and burden our system.

Furthermore by "get rid of" I don't mean kill, I mean deport or incarcerate.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 10:33:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/17/2005 10:34:09 PM EST by Mike_Mills]
I read the whole thing, Auggie. Ztep to zee right.

ETA - All I said was you were on thin ice.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 3:19:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

The first OBVIOUS solution is to get rid of the "will nots." These are the people who do NOT contribute but burden the nation. These are the illegal immigrants who by there mere presence take away from the "have nots." These are the criminals who rob and scam the system and have incomes (usually illegal in nature) while receiving services. These are the people who "can" work and contribute but are unwilling but DO take advantage of social services.



First of all, you aren't goinbg to get everyone to agree that the illegal immigrant isn't contributing to society. Some of them work damn harder than native born citizens.
Secondly, how are you going to "get rid of " the chronic non-contributor"? You can't simply ship them off to some island somewhere to get rid of them like the Brits did. You will have to deal with them being in society , and simply cutting off benefits will not make them go to work.The amount of squalor that exists now shows that people will live in it and not even blink. And the ones who will wind up suffering more will be their kids, who are just the next generation of "will nots".So whats your answer?
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 3:23:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By alaman:
Prior to Socialistic Security and other socialistic welfare programs, families, neighbors, friends, and churches took care of the needy as our founding fathers designed. Now those have been destroyed at the public feeding trough.


Not very well; thats why the current programs were created in the first place.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 4:42:17 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 4:53:53 AM EST
SteyrAug, I agree with you completely...productive members of society should be able to afford a decent living. Not everybody will be rich and famous, but you should be able to take care of a small family if you've got a job, and show up every day to do it.

The whole health care thing is getting ready to blow up...in 5 years, if prices keep going up, I think you'll see 100 million people with no insurance....and I'll probably be one of them. I pay $374 a month now, for just me. When that gets to $500 a month, I'm gonna have to come up with a plan B...I just can't afford that right now.

And the bigger problem is that people with no health insurance tend to avoid getting medical care for stuff that eventually gets much more serious, and much more expensive to treat. they end up in the emergency room, and the hospital gets stuck with the bill, OR the patient goes bankrupt to pay the bill.

I have no friggin' clue how we address these problems, though. It's for people who are a lot smarter than me to figure out. I'm not advocating a .gov solution, especially for health care, but there's got to be some sort of way to get some sytem that people can *opt* into if they want.



Link Posted: 5/18/2005 4:56:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/18/2005 4:57:23 AM EST by kill-9]
- Eliminate ALL government social programs. This would dramatically lower taxes, giving folks more money to invest in health care and retirement. It would also incent people to support themselves. Let families and charities (iow VOLUNTEER giving) take care of those unable to care for themselves.

- Eliminate ALL government regulation of the health care industry. Leave the free market FREE to fill the niches creating by the need for low-cost health care.

Those are the first two that spring to mind. They would go a long way toward allowing people to solve these problems.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 6:49:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/18/2005 6:52:10 AM EST by Mike_Mills]

Originally Posted By kill-9:
- Eliminate ALL government social programs. This would dramatically lower taxes, giving folks more money to invest in health care and retirement. It would also incent people to support themselves. Let families and charities (iow VOLUNTEER giving) take care of those unable to care for themselves.

- Eliminate ALL government regulation of the health care industry. Leave the free market FREE to fill the niches creating by the need for low-cost health care.

Those are the first two that spring to mind. They would go a long way toward allowing people to solve these problems.



I believe this could lead to a revolution in this country (even possibly violent). Certainly social spending dwarfs defense spending and is totally non-/counter productive.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 6:54:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By Fenian:
SteyrAug, I agree with you completely...productive members of society should be able to afford a decent living. Not everybody will be rich and famous, but you should be able to take care of a small family if you've got a job, and show up every day to do it.



And that really was my main point. Thank you for getting it.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 6:58:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/18/2005 7:22:42 AM EST by nightstalker]
Medical care is a "broken" market. It no longer responds to principles of supply and demand. It is an artificial market with subsidies, high bureaucratic costs and fraud. We can't afford all three.

As P.J. O'Rourke says, "If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free"

The same can be said for any "safety-net" scheme that works through an intrenched bureaucracy.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 7:03:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/18/2005 7:06:26 AM EST by WildBoar]
Most people have screwed up priorities. No heath care but they have cable tv, car payments, and eat out all the time. No one wants to take care of the essentials first. I hear so many piss and moan about not having health insurance yet they have about $200 worth of wasteful bills everymonth.

Cable TV? either get basic or drop it all together. Gotta have that lexus that costs over $400 a month, get rid of it, buy a good quality used vehicle. EAting out will rn you an average of $50 a week. Try shopping wise and actually learn how to cook, saves enough money right there to pay for the health insurance you are going to need to fix your body after eating out all the time.

Its not as bad as people think, they just have fudged up priorities.

America used to attract hard working people who wanted an opportunity. People used to understand that if properly motivated and some work effort is made, ANYONE can be great in the US. But thanks to the liberals, it now a place where people can come and get by. A place to do as little as possible and let someone else pick up your slack.

Thank you liberals.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 7:06:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
Most people have screwed up priorities. No heath care but they have cable tv, car payments, and eat out all the time. No one wants to take care of the essentials first. I hear so many piss and moan about not having health insurance yet they have about $200 worth of wasteful bills everymonth.

Cable TV? either get basic or drop it all together. Gotta have that lexus that costs over $400 a month, get rid of it, buy a good quality used vehicle. EAting out will rn you an average of $50 a week. Try shopping wise and actually learn how to cook, saves enough money right there to pay for the health insurance you are going to need to fix your body after eating out all the time.

Its not as bad as people think, they just have fudged up priorities.


Have you priced how much personally purchased insurance COSTS lately? I don't care how much you scrimp, its awfully difficult to come up with 8 or 9 hundred dollars a month to buy your own insurance.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 7:07:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/18/2005 8:35:15 AM EST by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
Most people have screwed up priorities. No heath care but they have cable tv, car payments, and eat out all the time. No one wants to take care of the essentials first. I hear so many piss and moan about not having health insurance yet they have about $200 worth of wasteful bills everymonth.

Cable TV? either get basic or drop it all together. Gotta have that lexus that costs over $400 a month, get rid of it, buy a good quality used vehicle. EAting out will rn you an average of $50 a week. Try shopping wise and actually learn how to cook, saves enough money right there to pay for the health insurance you are going to need to fix your body after eating out all the time.

Its not as bad as people think, they just have fudged up priorities.


Have you priced how much personally purchased insurance COSTS lately? I don't care how much you scrimp, its awfully difficult to come up with 8 or 9 hundred dollars a month to buy your own insurance.



Yes I have and I do. You are paying how much? Where did you get those insane numbers? I am paying $255.00 for a Humana PPO
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 7:09:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:

Originally Posted By kill-9:
- Eliminate ALL government social programs. This would dramatically lower taxes, giving folks more money to invest in health care and retirement. It would also incent people to support themselves. Let families and charities (iow VOLUNTEER giving) take care of those unable to care for themselves.

- Eliminate ALL government regulation of the health care industry. Leave the free market FREE to fill the niches creating by the need for low-cost health care.

Those are the first two that spring to mind. They would go a long way toward allowing people to solve these problems.



I believe this could lead to a revolution in this country (even possibly violent). Certainly social spending dwarfs defense spending and is totally non-/counter productive.



Agreed. Not only that, but doing so overnight would cause grief for a lot of good folks who have planned their long-term finances around programs like Medicare and Social Security. Therefore, the programs would have to be phased out over some period of time.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 7:27:40 AM EST
While I agree with SA, I am afraid it is too late....our society has been transformed by the libs/socialists to a "gimmee gimmee, I want it and you owe it to me society..its my right!!!!", and our country is doomed for that reason as well as a few others our populace has been brainwashed to believe for the psat 3-4 generations. Even Bush has contributed to this problem, esp. with his views on illegal immigrants.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 7:52:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Yes I have and I do. You are paying how much? Where did you get those insane numbers? I am pating $255.00 for a Humana PPO


Are you single? Some sort of HMO? I an citing what it would cost me to pay for my BC/BS family plan out of pocket.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 8:16:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By alaman:
Follow the Constitution 100%. It's not the Feds or taxpayers responsibility. Any person that wants to work can and can move up the economic ladder.

Prior to Socialistic Security and other socialistic welfare programs, families, neighbors, friends, and churches took care of the needy as our founding fathers designed. Now those have been destroyed at the public feeding trough.




This is the solution. It is not my responsibility as a tax payer to fund someone else's lifestyle. If you are GENUINELY disabled we as a society should help. If you are too lazy or stupid to take care of yourself then too fucking bad --starve. Starvation is a great motivator. Why should my lifestyle be deminished with high taxes so someone else can park thier butt on the couch?
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 8:29:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
Most people have screwed up priorities. No heath care but they have cable tv, car payments, and eat out all the time. No one wants to take care of the essentials first. I hear so many piss and moan about not having health insurance yet they have about $200 worth of wasteful bills everymonth.

Cable TV? either get basic or drop it all together. Gotta have that lexus that costs over $400 a month, get rid of it, buy a good quality used vehicle. EAting out will rn you an average of $50 a week. Try shopping wise and actually learn how to cook, saves enough money right there to pay for the health insurance you are going to need to fix your body after eating out all the time.

Its not as bad as people think, they just have fudged up priorities.


Have you priced how much personally purchased insurance COSTS lately? I don't care how much you scrimp, its awfully difficult to come up with 8 or 9 hundred dollars a month to buy your own insurance.



Yes I have and I do. You are paying how much? Where did you get those insane numbers? I am pating $255.00 for a Humana PPO



He's in New York ... a lot of companies won't even do business there because it's regulated so much that it's impossible to make a buck.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 8:35:13 AM EST
Reading all these costs of personal health insurance makes me happy that I have my job. I've been here 5 years, make a decent salary, and pay $3.49 a week for full medical and dental coverage though BC/BS.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 8:36:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/18/2005 8:37:36 AM EST by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Yes I have and I do. You are paying how much? Where did you get those insane numbers? I am pating $255.00 for a Humana PPO


Are you single? Some sort of HMO? I an citing what it would cost me to pay for my BC/BS family plan out of pocket.


Its just for me, to add my kids it would be $110 more. I could always do HMO and save a few $$ My kids are on my ex wives insurance. I still pay for it but they already have good coverage on hers so I just pay her the extra $145
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 8:49:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/18/2005 8:59:32 AM EST by MonkeysUncle]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

But I think it is ridiculous that people who actually work cannot make enough to provide for themsleves and a average size family (something a high school graduate could do in the 1950s).

I also think it is a sad commentary that a person who works but can't afford health care can get sick and NOT be able to take care of himself adequately.

The idea that they have no recourse other than to "die quietly" is offensive.

I think the United States "should" be capable of putting into place minimum safeguards that would protect those who work and live in the lower tax brackets from the extremes of homelessness, hunger and major health risks.



Somebody with a high school education CAN provide for themselves and an average size family.
Especially if they are willing to live at a 1950's standard of living.
What would that mean?
For starters, they'd do without a microwave oven, color tv, cable tv, dedicated phone line, cell phone, pager, internet, computers, atoumotive safety features like seatbelts, airbags and anti-lock brakes.

Medically, they'd have to go without many of our current lifesaving drugs, procedures and equipment like MRIs, cat scans, organ transplants, heart bypass surgery, cancer treatments, anti-cholesterol drugs, etc.

Tho get this on a national scale we'd have to do without almost all FDA and EPA regulations along with probably 99% of OSHA regulations.

I could go on and on with this, but just remember that most inventions don't save us money, they just make our lives easier/safer/more enjoyable. All those improvements don't come free, they cost BIG time.

Both my mother and father-in-law are alive today because of technology that didn't exist even 10 years ago. Did it cost anything to save them? YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT COST! Between the 2 it cost well over $1 million, almost $2 million. More money than either of them had made in their ENTIRE lives! (Ask yourself what are the economics behind that? What if it was you?)

You think it costs to live now? I have news for you - it's only going to get worse.

There are only two solutions: Make more money or swear off all the latest improvements, including medical ones.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 8:57:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

A perfect example of an obstacle is the ridiculous rule that you have to have a commercial space to conduct most businesses out of, such as an FFL. I wonder how many people who know something about repairing guns have been DETERRED from starting their own gunsmith business because the government says they can't conduct a lawful business in that field out of their home, and they can't afford a lease or don't have the time/energy/patience for the red tape that comes with applying for gov't assistance. Ask brasspile about that. You'll likely get an earful.



In economics that is known as the "Dead Weight Loss of Regulation". These regulations add nothing to the value of goods and services produced, they are just added, useless expense. Another example is the cost of having your taxes prepared. It creates absolutely NO value, yet even if you do it yourself it is hugely expensive.

This sort of thing is a HUGE drag on the economy and adversly affects the ability of people to make livings.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 9:00:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:


He's in New York ... a lot of companies won't even do business there because it's regulated so much that it's impossible to make a buck.



Didnt notice. I guess that would make a huge difference then. NY is known for excessive regulation.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 9:38:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By nightstalker:
Medical care is a "broken" market. It no longer responds to principles of supply and demand. It is an artificial market with subsidies, high bureaucratic costs and fraud. We can't afford all three.

As P.J. O'Rourke says, "If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free"

The same can be said for any "safety-net" scheme that works through an intrenched bureaucracy.



Here's a little eye opener for you.

90% of all money spent on healthcare in the US is spent in the last 2 years of a persons life.

The level of ignorance here amazes me sometimes. Its not crack whores and their illigitimate kids who are driving up the cost of health care. Its not illegal mexican immigrints.

Its your 79 year old father and mother on medicare who go to the doctor to have their nose blown for them because they are bored.

Its the doctor who does triple bypass surgury on the 88 year old woman so she can live to be 89. At a cost of $92,000.

It the chemo and radiation of the 82 year old man so he can live to be 83 at a cost of $51,000.

All those insurance plans that wrap around medicare for retirees have to figure in the cost of expensive procedures. Why do you suppose it cost General Motors $1,500 on each car it builds for retirees medical insurance?

You really want to reduce the cost of health care in this country? Convince you parents to forego treatment when they get past 65 years old.

Stop subsidizing China. The average Wal Mart employee makes $17,000 a year and has no medical benefits. When they get sick medicaid pays. That's you and me in the end. But we employ a lot of Chinese to make the crap Wal Mart sells. The Wal Mart employee uses Medicaid when they get sick, thats a form of socialized medicine. Oops, the Chinese guy working in the factory that makes things for Wal Mart has socialized medicine too!

What percentage of people do you think don't want to live in a decent house, have decent food, clothes, and go to a movie once in a while?

I don't know any, but I'm sure there must be a few around, but very few.

How many people in this country have an IQ under 90? We know the AVERAGE IQ is 100. We used to have jobs in this country for stupid people. We don't have many left because so many went overseas.

Back in the 50's, stupid people could get factory jobs and live a half way decent lifestyle. Not anymore.

And don't believe for a minute they can all borrow money, go to college and become computer programmers. They can't. They are too stupid.

What's the answer? There isn't one. There are a lot of little and big things that need doing.

More birth control.
Genetic engineering to raise intelligence.
Stop welfare for the rich like farm subsidies, tax breaks for companies who stay until they run out then on to the next. Corporate malfeasance like Enron, etc. Stiff jail terms in real prisons for corporte thieves.
Put America and Americans first! Encourage consumption of US made products. Make it unpatriotic to buy foreign made crap.

Illegal immigration is just another 'redistribute the wealth' program for the wealty. Cheap labor not only directly costs less but also drives down wages. The lower and middle class pays the bill through lower wages and higher taxes to pay for the illegals health care, education, etc.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 9:59:59 AM EST
I own a business in a very highly regulated industry - health care (a skilled nursing facility). "Health care is the second most regulated industry, after the nuclear industry." [NFPA Journal] Even though my business is labor intensive, the costs of governmental compliance and professional liability insurance are the major components of my increased costs over the last 3 decades. And as far as labor costs, health care coverage (ironically) is the fastest growing cost component. Today, I only pay 1/2 of an employee's benefit. Most cannot, or will not, pay the other half.

Last year I lost about $30,000 for the first time ever. The main reason? Welfare (Medicaid) paying folks more to stay at home than they are willing to pay me to keep them 24/7. Now, I know everone wants to grow old at home and are willing to pay a premium to do just that. But we are talking about welfare recipients here. People who have no money! Fortunately for me, my wife runs the local Home Health agency for the community hospital. So, one of us should be able to keep our job.

The point is that the govt. can't even spend our money in the most efficient way possible. Why should they? People tend not to value that which isn't theirs in the first place. What motivation is there for US to cut budgets and be effecient? Market influences and capitalism only work in free markets. Our government has a true monopoly on redistribution of wealth. That is the classic definition of Socialism and that is exactly what we have now (only on a smaller than population-wide scale).

As far as wages, the market does a great job of self-regulation. If there is a shortage of workers for any given job, at any given pay scale, the job will have to pay more to attract workers. Very simple. If illegals are kicked out, our strawberries will cost more because the growers will have to pay more to get them picked. In my business, I pay people from $9.25 to 40.00/hr. That's what the market dictates. Taco Bell pays kids (including my 17yo) barely more than minimum wage. But those jobs are NOT MEANT to be career opportunities. They are starter jobs. I'm already bugging my boy to extend himself by looking for other employment (note: I won't hire him myself out of principal.).

You can say that jobs today don't give what they used to give. But how many of the pre-baby boomers had lifelong jobs flipping burgers? Those jobs have NEVER been intended to support a family on.

And you can't say we don't already pay enough in taxes. I pay as much, per dollar, as anyone in this country. Probably more, since my business is a subchapter S corp and is taxed as personal income to me. I'm tired of this crap. I'm tired of providing for people who don't want to for themselves. I'm sick and tired of being made to feel guilty because "we" (I) don't do enough for those 'unfortunates.' Cut out all the waste and fraud - then ask me for more money (if it's even needed then).

BTW, there will always be those unwilling to pull their own weight. And there will always be bleeding hearts willing to give them my money in order for them to live at a level they didn't work for and don't deserve.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:34:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By PhatForrest:
Reading all these costs of personal health insurance makes me happy that I have my job. I've been here 5 years, make a decent salary, and pay $3.49 a week for full medical and dental coverage though BC/BS.



Health care premiums are just part of your pay. I think companies find it beneficial to them to pay your health care benefits rather than give you a higher salary (from which you would pay for your own health care). This way they avoid having paying SS and Medicare taxes on this money (about 11% total). It's smart business in a way but you aren't getting something for nothing, it just seems that way.
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