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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/10/2005 9:21:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:32:19 AM EDT
they usually get invaded by Visigoths or something
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:35:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
they usually get invaded by Visigoths or something



Islamic fighters invaded Spain from Africa and killed the Visigoths.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:38:18 AM EDT

He called the West "sensate" for its infatuation with human-centered thinking and fleshly desire... Sorokin taught that a culture becomes sensate when it bankrupts itself of truth.
.
.
.
[W]ithout the Kingdom of God we are doomed to a weary and torturing pilgrimage from calamity to calamity, from crisis to crisis, with only brief moments of transitory improvement for regaining our breath. In that case the way out will always be the ‘way of death,' ordeal and destruction.


I like how Pope Benedict described Western Civilization as "a world that is tired of its own culture".


Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:48:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 9:57:01 AM EDT by TNFrank]
"We have abandoned the Christian values that allowed us to prosper and have stability and we are being directly threatened by the Muslim civilization through infiltration and direct attack."

Well gee, I guess time about is fair play. Seems like I remember Christian civilization doing it's fair share of "inflitration" back in the day and overthrowing the Worldview/culture of the people that they hogged in on. Civilization doesn't begin or end with "Christianity", many civilizations have come and gone that were not Christian. Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Babalonians, et al, have prospered and died without knowning one thing about Christ or Christian Civilization.
As far as our civilization goes, it's simply time for us to be lowered a peg or two and some other country take over as "World Leader". Remember, when our country was first founded England was the "Big Dawg" on the block, we kicked their butt and took the title over and now China is kicking our butt in the market place and taking over. It's just the natural order of things. Get used to it.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:48:46 AM EDT
Well in the case of the Roman Empire it happened barely 100 years after becoming the FIRST Christian nation.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:50:24 AM EDT
IBTMTTNF


(In before the move to the nutter forum)
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:55:06 AM EDT
so...which utes are waiting to carry us to redemption, the ones with their pants hanging off their asses or the young sluts with 15 std's under their belt?
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:57:55 AM EDT
They vote Democrat.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:03:23 AM EDT
when 'civilizations' die they break off into geographical 'factions' and then subdivided into demographical 'sects.'

Given the layout of the US, it'll be a very interesting place.


so....when the SHTF....


I'll be nestled up in northern Maine. Don't call me, I'll call you.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:08:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Well in the case of the Roman Empire it happened barely 100 years after becoming the FIRST Christian nation.



Yes, but it was the less Christian Western half that fell. The more heavily Christianized east went on for another 1000 years.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:13:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:15:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hokie:
I'll be nestled up in northern Maine. Don't call me, I'll call you.




I'm heading to Hokie's house and borrowing his guns.

<­BR>

If you believe that he'll let me borrow them, you probably also believe that the state educated utes of today will save our nation.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:19:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 10:20:19 AM EDT by Torf]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Well in the case of the Roman Empire it happened barely 100 years after becoming the FIRST Christian nation.



I bet that if China would become a Christian nation, it would rapidly cease to exist as it does today.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:19:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 10:22:00 AM EDT by TheCynic]
Same thing that we all do: crap their pants.

eta: sorry for the obl. South Park reference.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:40:05 AM EDT
Thought they became religious fundamentalists...
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:42:45 AM EDT

What Happens When Civilizations Die?



Hide and watch.

<­BR>


Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:42:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 10:43:35 AM EDT by SteyrAUG]

Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Well in the case of the Roman Empire it happened barely 100 years after becoming the FIRST Christian nation.



Yes, but it was the less Christian Western half that fell. The more heavily Christianized east went on for another 1000 years.



Uhhhh no. The Roman Empire, as a whole....FELL.

It became something else. The Eastern Roman empire didn't remain anymore than modern Western Europe is the more successful "modern" Nazi Germany.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:54:30 AM EDT
It's a good write up & and interesting read, but it's built on shaking foundations & reasoning. Look at this statement for example:


Sorokin taught that a culture becomes sensate when it bankrupts itself of truth.


First, "sensate?" WTF? This sure doesn't give an adequate definition:


He called the West "sensate" for its infatuation with human-centered thinking and fleshly desire.


Second, what is actually the definition of "bankrupts itself of truth?" In the process of growing up we all quickly learn that there are few absolute truths, unlike when we are in school & everything is simplified so that there are absolute answers.

Third, since when is "human-centered thinking" unique to the West? I can't believe that all humans do have some measure of thinking about themselves & wanting to take care of themselves, although there obviously usually some type of altruism in humans. I could make a good case that this is one of the key items that separate us from animals, that duality.

Fourth, "fleshly desire?" I ain't even going to get into that one.

[sgtar15 mode on] Discuss. [/sgtar15 mode off]
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 11:00:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 11:18:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ghengiskhabb:

Originally Posted By Hokie:
I'll be nestled up in northern Maine. Don't call me, I'll call you.




I'm heading to Hokie's house and borrowing his guns.

If you believe that he'll let me borrow them, you probably also believe that the state educated utes of today will save our nation.



hey bud, if you were going actually travel from AZ to Maine to visit me, you can borrow my guns anytime, provided you never motioned for my M4, obviously!!!
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 11:42:13 AM EDT
The SOUTH SHALL RISE AGAIN.

<­BR>




I am not really a true southerner (born in CA) but I do like it here.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 12:52:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:


Like it or not, even atheism is a religious position. So that makes everybody and their values religious at some level.




So is a person who doesn't believe in Zues relgious about their non belief in Zues?

Is that YOUR religion or do you believe in Zues?
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 1:44:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
I seem to recall similar predictions during the "Gay '90's"--the 1890's.

I don't. How old are you anyway?


Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
The same things were predicted during the "Roaring Twenties"--and we got Prohibition. During WWII it was doubted any civilization could exist amongst so much evil.

Doubted by who!??

That's absurd.



Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
The 1960's, with some very ugly stuff to behold (anyone recall Charles Manson and his merry band?), had similar dire warnings. Life goes on.

That we haven't hit the very bottom of the abyss yet is no evidence against the obvious fact that we are indeed speeding down hill as a civilization.

"Life goes on"... I bet the pagans, queers and idolators living in Sodom & Gomorrah were saying the exact same thing to anyone warning them of their path to destruction.

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 1:48:18 PM EDT
Sooooooooo we got the economy about to take a shit........... & Western civilization is at a crisis point...............

<­BR>



SWEET! This is gonna be fun!!
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 2:08:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 2:26:04 PM EDT by MRW]
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 2:09:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
I seem to recall similar predictions during the "Gay '90's"--the 1890's. The same things were predicted during the "Roaring Twenties"--and we got Prohibition. During WWII it was doubted any civilization could exist amongst so much evil. The 1960's, with some very ugly stuff to behold (anyone recall Charles Manson and his merry band?), had similar dire warnings. Life goes on.



All that shit can't hold a light to islam.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 2:12:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By MRW:


Like it or not, even atheism is a religious position. So that makes everybody and their values religious at some level.




So is a person who doesn't believe in Zues relgious about their non belief in Zues? to say that the god Zeus does not exist is a religious statement. Is that YOUR religion or do you believe in Zues?



are you honestly asking or are you trying to provoke?

I have not and cannot explore every corner of the universe to see if I can find him, nor can I be sure that my detection methods are good enough to discover him even if I can locate him. Therefore if I say that zeus does not exist, I must base my statemwnt on faith, rather than evidence.


atheism states that God does not exist. That is a theological statement. Theological statements are founded on faith, not direct empirical evidence. Therefore atheism is a religiously held position.




So the same holds true for the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy I assume?

I just find the notion that a person who doesn't believe in these things is taking a 'religious' position is absurd.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:45:35 PM EDT
Keep watching and you'll find out
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:50:41 PM EDT
they end up on a screen like this
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:57:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 3:59:43 PM EDT by jkstexas2001]

Originally Posted By hardcase:
It's a good write up & and interesting read, but it's built on shaking foundations & reasoning. Look at this statement for example:


Sorokin taught that a culture becomes sensate when it bankrupts itself of truth.


First, "sensate?" WTF? This sure doesn't give an adequate definition:


He called the West "sensate" for its infatuation with human-centered thinking and fleshly desire.


Second, what is actually the definition of "bankrupts itself of truth?" In the process of growing up we all quickly learn that there are few absolute truths, unlike when we are in school & everything is simplified so that there are absolute answers.

Third, since when is "human-centered thinking" unique to the West? I can't believe that all humans do have some measure of thinking about themselves & wanting to take care of themselves, although there obviously usually some type of altruism in humans. I could make a good case that this is one of the key items that separate us from animals, that duality.

Fourth, "fleshly desire?" I ain't even going to get into that one.

[sgtar15 mode on] Discuss. [/sgtar15 mode off]



Sensate, from what I am able to deduce from his writings, means fixated on physical pleasures and entertainment (bread and circuses is the term used for this characteristic of later Roman civilization), and fixated on the acquisition of physical things (money, homes, etc). The Roman Civilization got to the point where it abandoned the idealism of the Republic (pre-Caesar) and focused on getting fed and being entertained - they welcomed the Dictators as long as they made sure the Romans kept getting fed and entertained. We see parallels in todays world. Sensate would be the opposite of spiritual - by Spiritual I do not mean christianity necessarily, but the focus is on invisible things, such as character, honor, good citizenship, morality, literacy, etc. The "spiritual" focus of our civilization is long gone. We no longer emphasize character development, the importance of honor, the importance of being literate - but the emphasis is more on entertainment (Xbox, NFL, ESPN, Movies), acquisition of goods, etc. That's how I interpret his writings, and there is a lot of truth in it.

Do you not think that our country would vote in a dictator or bad leader, if the leader promised food in every plate, free entertainment, and wealth? Most folks would welcome such a leader. That's why we stopped having Statesmen, and began voting in politicians.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:58:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sharky30:
they end up on a screen like this
www.civ3.com/images/screenshots/defeat_screen.jpg



Best...game...ever...
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 4:02:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Well in the case of the Roman Empire it happened barely 100 years after becoming the FIRST Christian nation.



Yes, but it was the less Christian Western half that fell. The more heavily Christianized east went on for another 1000 years.



Uhhhh no. The Roman Empire, as a whole....FELL.

It became something else. The Eastern Roman empire didn't remain anymore than modern Western Europe is the more successful "modern" Nazi Germany.



Where the heck are you getting that from? At the time of the fall of the Western Empire the Roman Empire was split into two co-equal halves, each with its own Emperor and entirely separate militiary and civilian administration. When Romulus Augustulus was forced to abdicate (in 469, IIRC) the Eastern Empire continued to operate as it always had. Over time, it gradually evolved into a more medieval state, but was considered the most technologically advanced Christian state up until its final destruction by the Turks in 1453.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 4:03:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:

Sensate, from what I am able to deduce from his writings, means fixated on physical pleasures and entertainment (bread and circuses is the term used for this characteristic of later Roman civilization), and fixated on the acquisition of physical things (money, homes, etc). The Roman Civilization got to the point where it abandoned the idealism of the Republic (pre-Caesar) and focused on getting fed and being entertained - they welcomed the Dictators as long as they made sure the Romans kept getting fed and entertained. We see parallels in todays world. Sensate would be the opposite of spiritual - by Spiritual I do not mean christianity necessarily, but the focus is on invisible things, such as character, honor, good citizenship, morality, literacy, etc. The "spiritual" focus of our civilization is long gone. We no longer emphasize character development, the importance of honor, the importance of being literate - but the emphasis is more on entertainment (Xbox, NFL, ESPN, Movies), acquisition of goods, etc. That's how I interpret his writings, and there is a lot of truth in it.

Do you not think that our country would vote in a dictator or bad leader, if the leader promised food in every plate, free entertainment, and wealth? Most folks would welcome such a leader. That's why we stopped having Statesmen, and began voting in politicians.



I think you've got it!

What's really scary is how many don't get it.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 4:08:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sharky30:
they end up on a screen like this
www.civ3.com/images/screenshots/defeat_screen.jpg




I'm not usually surprised by Arfcom smartassed replies but that one got me.



Now I gotta fire up my game and play a round.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 6:44:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 6:47:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 6:52:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 6:53:32 PM EDT by SteyrAUG]

Originally Posted By MRW:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

So the same holds true for the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy I assume?

I just find the notion that a person who doesn't believe in these things is taking a 'religious' position is absurd.



straw man argument fallacy.

But yes, at it's core, if you don't believe in the easter bunny or the tooth fairy, it's a religiously held position. You have not searched everywhere in the universe for them nor are you all-knowing to be fully aware of everything that exists even if you could search the universe.

BUT

you can make a very well substantiated and reasoned conclusion about their existance based on what you DO know about the nature of the universe, the part that you HAVE observed and have experience with, and we naturally ASSUME that the properties and principles that we observe in our corner of the universe hold true in all other areas of the universe, so we can comfortably say that it is EXTREMELY unlikely that those two do not exist, and not loose any sleep over our intellectual honesty.

But we can't say we are 100% certain they do not exist. 99.9999999999999999% perhaps, give or take a nine. And if you want to give me a Tec-nine, I'd sure not turn it down.

you are an FFL dealer, right?




Straw man argument fallacy?

Your God is no more provable than Zues. And Zues is no more provable than the Easter Bunny. Has NOTHING to do with straw men or fallacies (unless we are talking about mythical deities).

And I find it absurd to suggest that NON BELIEF in Zues, Your God, The Easter Bunny, etc. is a RELIGIOUS BELIEF. It is common sense for most people.

And you are correct, you cannot disprove a negative.

And if that makes me religious then fine, I subscribe to the religion of "Likely" and the "Church of Can Be Supported By Evidence" and we are religious due to our NON BELIEF of pink fairies, smurfs, Zues, magical elves and assorted other non entities.

You of course are free to continue to believe any kind of silly shit you like.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:15:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 8:33:19 AM EDT by MRW]
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:48:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:
not very sportsmanlike of you to pop a gasket.



Who popped a gasket?!? I answered your post.


Originally Posted By MRW:
Perhaps you do compare the existance of God to the existance of the easter bunny and the tooth fairy, and say that they are equivalent. I do not, and therefore to set up a very easily defeatable argument (easterbunnytoothfairy) and attack it successfully, and then say that the existance of God can be refuted just as easily, is the very definition of a straw man argument.



Not just me but many people do not believe. And there is no more evidence for the Hebrew God than there is for the Easter Bunny and that is because NONE exists. Which is why they require faith.


Originally Posted By MRW:
Here is why I do not think them comparable: Remember what I said about making a decision based on what we have experience observing? Every bit of what I observe, from the physical universe and it's detailed order and laws, the wonder of biological life, the human capacity to reason and understand the universe, and control and manipulate it, the transcendent moral order, the proven and observable extra-terrestrial nature of the scriptures (telling the end from the beginning), the cycle and flow of human history, to the inescapable and undeniable INTERNAL conviction that there is a God and I am accountable to Him, and on and on, EVERY BIT testifies that there is a Creator God and some of his nature can be known.



It is all just what you believe, no evidence exists. Not a shred. Try and remember for centuries people held identical convictions for Zues and Raj. In fact ALL mythology at some point in history was religious fact.


Originally Posted By MRW:

So if I can be intellectually comfortable with denying the existance of the EB and TF based on what little I know of the nature of the universe, I have a HUNDRED times more reason to be intellectually comfortable with my belief that God is real and his qualities can be known. It is not true because I believe it, my wishful thinking does not make it true. I believe it because I have been convinced that it IS true, and therefore I have no other choice but to believe a lie.

But I cannot stick God in a test tube and poke him with a pencil. So even though the weight of evidence is vast for me to believe, ultimately my position is a matter of faith.

And if you claim He does not exist, so is yours.





I do NOT claim he does NOT exist. I noted you cannot prove a negative. I have simply stated I don't believe in the Hebrew God any more than I beleive in Easter Bunnies and Tooth Fairies.
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