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Posted: 6/22/2011 8:13:03 AM EDT
I see the crowd comes equipped with green laser pointers and that they sometimes appear to coordinate and point at particular policemen.  Other times they just are swirling them around at the police.

How distracting/disruptive would this be?  Any chance of eye damage if several are aimed together?

Seems like a good tactic for counter-demonstrators against Progressive agitators.

Thoughts?

<going to ebay to see how much 1000 laser pointers cost>
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:18:25 AM EDT
From what I understand eye damage is possible up close. Esclation of force begits esclation of force. Laser use would make it very tempting to increase the force of the dispersion tactics used by the police.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:20:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:23:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Slavac:

Originally Posted By shadrach:
From what I understand eye damage is possible up close. Esclation of force begits esclation of force. Laser use would make it very tempting to increase the force of the dispersion tactics used by the police.

One thing I noticed was the almost total lack of effect of the tear gas grenades and canisters they were using.  It seemed if perp A had a cheap bandanna over his face, he was immune.

Anyone know what they're using?  Why is it ineffective?
 


heck, with the amount of riots they have had maybe the tear gas they are using is old and has degraded

just guessing

Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:26:57 AM EDT
so when going to a riot, bring riot dog, gas mask, and green lasers.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:28:34 AM EDT



Originally Posted By Slavac:





Originally Posted By shadrach:

From what I understand eye damage is possible up close. Esclation of force begits esclation of force. Laser use would make it very tempting to increase the force of the dispersion tactics used by the police.


One thing I noticed was the almost total lack of effect of the tear gas grenades and canisters they were using.  It seemed if perp A had a cheap bandanna over his face, he was immune.



Anyone know what they're using?  Why is it ineffective?

 




Fo dog can neutralize any chemical agents.



 
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:29:12 AM EDT


That's a great way to get shot.

Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:30:07 AM EDT
Whatever happened to the device (some sort of sound generator, IIRC) that would make people roll around on the ground and puke?

Have they been produced / employed anywhere.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:31:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:
That's a great way to get shot.



Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:31:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:
That's a great way to get shot.



I'm guessing that in the US lasers are more associated with firearms than in Greece, due to a firearm ownership prevalency difference?

Also, I think it is different in a demonstration situation than some cop patrolling alone and having a laser illumination.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:32:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2011 8:37:24 AM EDT by 3Trip]
Originally Posted By BattletweeteR:
so when going to a riot, bring riot dog, (bring everyone)gas mask, and green lasers.


Fix'd as being the only one with a gas mask will attract unwanted attention.

While your at, bring a dog for everyone too.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:36:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:45:52 AM EDT
The laser pointers are a clever idea, but the execution leaves something to be desired.  Anyone with a little persistence can purchase (or make) a laser pointer powerful enough to blind by itself, thereby eliminating the need for coordinated activity.  Ideally one would use a laser in a non-visible wavelength so that the blinding would happen discretely and without risk of the laser wielder being located.

There is a simple countermeasure here; protective glasses.  So in the grand scheme of things I don't see lasers being a disruptive technology.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:46:47 AM EDT



Originally Posted By callgood:


Whatever happened to the device (some sort of sound generator, IIRC) that would make people roll around on the ground and puke?



Have they been produced / employed anywhere.


The brown note



 
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:48:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By flyfishnepa:
Originally Posted By Slavac:

Originally Posted By shadrach:
From what I understand eye damage is possible up close. Esclation of force begits esclation of force. Laser use would make it very tempting to increase the force of the dispersion tactics used by the police.

One thing I noticed was the almost total lack of effect of the tear gas grenades and canisters they were using.  It seemed if perp A had a cheap bandanna over his face, he was immune.

Anyone know what they're using?  Why is it ineffective?
 


heck, with the amount of riots they have had maybe the tear gas they are using is old and has degraded

just guessing



Or the protesters have developed an immunity.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:49:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Monoz:
The laser pointers are a clever idea, but the execution leaves something to be desired.  Anyone with a little persistence can purchase (or make) a laser pointer powerful enough to blind by itself, thereby eliminating the need for coordinated activity.  Ideally one would use a laser in a non-visible wavelength so that the blinding would happen discretely and without risk of the laser wielder being located.

There is a simple countermeasure here; protective glasses.  So in the grand scheme of things I don't see lasers being a disruptive technology.

This will be the begining of the Eye's race.

Stronger lasers will require stronger protective glasses, which will require stronger lasers, which will require stronger glasses.

What a world, what a world.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:55:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 8:59:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Harvster:

Originally Posted By callgood:
Whatever happened to the device (some sort of sound generator, IIRC) that would make people roll around on the ground and puke?

Have they been produced / employed anywhere.

The brown note
 


Mythbusters demonstrated as bogus.


The US military has a microwave cooker that is very effective at dispersing protesters. I believe it has been operationally used.

Link Posted: 6/22/2011 9:00:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By callgood:
Whatever happened to the device (some sort of sound generator, IIRC) that would make people roll around on the ground and puke?

Have they been produced / employed anywhere.

http://gizmodo.com/5369190/lrad-sound-cannon-used-on-pittsburgh-g20-protesters

Also, WRT protestors using lasers on cops: several manufacturers produce laser-protective lenses/goggles.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 9:03:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2011 9:05:43 AM EDT by fisherman]
"a non-visible wavelength"  ....... of a laser??

Not sure if serious.  

Also not sure is same exists or how it would be aimed .

Me thinks your vocalizations are coming from your posterior but apologize in advance if mistaken.
fisherman
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 9:05:05 AM EDT




Originally Posted By Harvster:





Originally Posted By callgood:

Whatever happened to the device (some sort of sound generator, IIRC) that would make people roll around on the ground and puke?



Have they been produced / employed anywhere.


The brown note





My thoughts exactly. Make the entire world shit their pants at the same time. Epic.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 9:05:47 AM EDT



Originally Posted By fisherman:


"a non-visible wavelength"  ....... of a laser??



Not sure if serious.  



Also not sure is same exists or how it would be aimed .



Me thinks your vocaliztions are coming from your posterior but apologize in andvance if mistaken.

fisherman


Yep, nost .mil laser range finders work in the non-visible spectrum, and can pop eyes...



PEQ, M1A2



 
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 9:10:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fisherman:
"a non-visible wavelength"  ....... of a laser??

Not sure if serious.  

Also not sure is same exists or how it would be aimed .

Me thinks your vocalizations are coming from your posterior but apologize in advance if mistaken.
fisherman


The US Army uses lasers in the IR wavelengths for aiming while using night vision equipment. It would be kind of stupid for our soldiers to run around using NV and essentially being invisible then turning on visible spectrum lasers that would show the enemy exactly where they are. (One of Murphy's laws of combat, "Tracers work both ways.")

An ultra-violet laser would be invisible and do serious, nearly instantaneous damage to a person's eyes. Aiming would be accomplished the same way you aim a rifle, with sights. Only you wouldn't have to accommodate for bullet drop.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 9:25:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2011 9:28:06 AM EDT by Green_Canoe]
Originally Posted By fisherman:
"a non-visible wavelength"  ....... of a laser??

Not sure if serious.  

Also not sure is same exists or how it would be aimed .

Me thinks your vocalizations are coming from your posterior but apologize in advance if mistaken.
fisherman


My company makes IR lasers for measuring in industrial settings.  The visible wavelengths of light are only one tiny portion of the electromagnetic spectrum.  We are now making the move to visible lasers.   Visible lasers reduce the danger classification of the laser because when it is invisible you have no indication to turn away from the light before damage to your eyes is done.

Invisible light is everywhere.  The best example of IR light is the heat you feel at a distance from a fire or hot object.  An everyday example of UV light it the "black light" in a bar.  You don't see it until it excites white things to give off visible light.

Protecting for your eyes from laser light is rather simple but it does help to know the wavelength of the light you are trying to avoid to maximise protection.  With the weak IR light  (>5 mW) we use in our lasers any green glass or plastic will offer protection.  However, to maximise protection special lenses are required.  Normal clear glasses will protect your eye from weak UV.  According to my eye doctor one of the advantages lifetime eyegrasses wearers have is a lower incidence of cataracts caused my exposure to UV light from the sun.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 9:31:22 AM EDT



Originally Posted By callgood:


Whatever happened to the device (some sort of sound generator, IIRC) that would make people roll around on the ground and puke?



Have they been produced / employed anywhere.


Pretty sure Greece can't get a loan for one.

 
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 9:36:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Slavac:

Originally Posted By shadrach:
From what I understand eye damage is possible up close. Esclation of force begits esclation of force. Laser use would make it very tempting to increase the force of the dispersion tactics used by the police.

One thing I noticed was the almost total lack of effect of the tear gas grenades and canisters they were using.  It seemed if perp A had a cheap bandanna over his face, he was immune.

Anyone know what they're using?  Why is it ineffective?
 


CS isn't really that big of a deal, especially if you've been exposed before. It is a particulate so an N95 mask would keep most of it out of your lungs, which would leave your eyes just stinging a little bit. In an open area, it does even less.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 9:39:20 AM EDT
What about 5.3? I couldn't imagine someone building an immunity to that.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 11:47:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fisherman:
"a non-visible wavelength"  ....... of a laser??

Not sure if serious.  

Also not sure is same exists or how it would be aimed .

Me thinks your vocalizations are coming from your posterior but apologize in advance if mistaken.
fisherman


IR and UV are both non-visible wavelengths of light.  Aiming could be done using sights on the side of the laser tube or with crosshairs in a side tube.

Your "advance apology" accepted, but wouldn't it have been better just to not put your foot in your mouth?
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 11:59:23 AM EDT




Originally Posted By callgood:

Whatever happened to the device (some sort of sound generator, IIRC) that would make people roll around on the ground and puke?



Have they been produced / employed anywhere.




giant micro wave .



I don't know if we have sold any to other countries. Seems like a good time to test them though.  We should let them borrow a few. I want to know the effective range so I can take one out before it hits me if there ever is some crazy shtf event that causes martial law.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 12:17:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By victorgonzales:

Originally Posted By callgood:
Whatever happened to the device (some sort of sound generator, IIRC) that would make people roll around on the ground and puke?

Have they been produced / employed anywhere.


giant micro wave .

I don't know if we have sold any to other countries. Seems like a good time to test them though.  We should let them borrow a few. I want to know the effective range so I can take one out before it hits me if there ever is some crazy shtf event that causes martial law.



I've always wondered if I could wrap myself in tin foil and throw giant sparks if I ever encountered one of those.  Could I wrap my whole mob in tin foil and blow the magnetron?
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 12:18:51 PM EDT
Don't bring green lights to a rubber bullet fight.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 12:26:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Green_Canoe:
Originally Posted By victorgonzales:

Originally Posted By callgood:
Whatever happened to the device (some sort of sound generator, IIRC) that would make people roll around on the ground and puke?

Have they been produced / employed anywhere.


giant micro wave .

I don't know if we have sold any to other countries. Seems like a good time to test them though.  We should let them borrow a few. I want to know the effective range so I can take one out before it hits me if there ever is some crazy shtf event that causes martial law.



I've always wondered if I could wrap myself in tin foil and throw giant sparks if I ever encountered one of those.  Could I wrap my whole mob in tin foil and blow the magnetron?


There is one that operates at a much higher frequency than your normal household microwave (~2.45GHz for your basic nuker, 95 GHz for active denial systems) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System




Other stuff for controlling rioters etc:

http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public//PubFullText/RTO/TR/RTO-TR-HFM-073///TR-HFM-073-ANN-G.pdf

Link Posted: 6/22/2011 12:29:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:
That's a great way to get shot.



Without hesitation.

Life limb or eyesight is enough.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 12:32:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Slavac:

Originally Posted By echo6:
Originally Posted By Slavac:

Originally Posted By shadrach:
From what I understand eye damage is possible up close. Esclation of force begits esclation of force. Laser use would make it very tempting to increase the force of the dispersion tactics used by the police.

One thing I noticed was the almost total lack of effect of the tear gas grenades and canisters they were using.  It seemed if perp A had a cheap bandanna over his face, he was immune.

Anyone know what they're using?  Why is it ineffective?
 


It doesn't take long to build up an immunity / tolerance to CS/CN. When I got out of the .mil I could walk into a room filled with gas and not suffer any discomfort at all. Though  when I came home and took off my uniform my wife was not pleased at ALL

I'll be damned, I always thought that was an urban legend.  

Seriously these guys were picking up softball sized cans of smoke, picking a target patiently and chucking them.  No coughing, hell not even a twitch.  
 


I've seen crooks gassed enough that they were nearly immune.

Chem agents rely on atmosphere to be effective.  

Deploying them on the street is.......Not useless....but close to it.

The crooks in our loockup understand that once the grenades start
going off, deadly force will shortly follow if compliance is not gained.

That's the real threat of chem agents
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 12:36:46 PM EDT
If they were smarter (or meaner) they would use the "Blue Ray" lasers.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 12:45:46 PM EDT

Cheap green laser pointers can be pretty dangerous because they aren't strictly 'green'. They use an 808nm (IR) diode to excite an Nd:YAG crystal which outputs 1064nm (even longer IR) which is then doubled to 532nm (green) in a KTP crystal. After that, a filter should stop the IR and let the green light pass through, but in some cheap lasers the filter is not installed. These then output several times as much invisible IR light as green light. 1064nm is a particularly nasty wavelength because it passes easily through the lens of the eye to burn the retina. Other wavelengths (like the 'eye-safe' 1500nm lasers) are stopped by the cornea where they cause cataracts, which can be repaired to some degree vs. burnt retina which is irrepairable.

Laser pointers can be much more than a distraction. A rioter pointing one of these at a cop might as well poke him in the eye with a stick. Either action can cause permanent loss of vision.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 12:48:48 PM EDT
Maybe the greek cops need to start using the Israeli tactic of suppressed 22LRs to take out (by shooting them in the leg/gut) individual troublemakers in crowds...
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 1:07:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By echo6:
Originally Posted By Slavac:

Originally Posted By shadrach:
From what I understand eye damage is possible up close. Esclation of force begits esclation of force. Laser use would make it very tempting to increase the force of the dispersion tactics used by the police.

One thing I noticed was the almost total lack of effect of the tear gas grenades and canisters they were using.  It seemed if perp A had a cheap bandanna over his face, he was immune.

Anyone know what they're using?  Why is it ineffective?
 


It doesn't take long to build up an immunity / tolerance to CS/CN. When I got out of the .mil I could walk into a room filled with gas and not suffer any discomfort at all. Though  when I came home and took off my uniform my wife was not pleased at ALL


Is this you?   (Police Academy 3 reference)
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 2:21:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence:
Maybe the greek cops need to start using the Israeli tactic of suppressed 22LRs to take out (by shooting them in the leg/gut groin) individual troublemakers in crowds...


Link Posted: 6/22/2011 2:33:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence:
Maybe the greek cops need to start using the Israeli tactic of suppressed 22LRs to take out (by shooting them in the leg/gut) individual troublemakers in crowds...






Link Posted: 6/22/2011 2:36:43 PM EDT
Is there a video of them doing it?  I'd like to see it.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 2:44:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fisherman:
"a non-visible wavelength"  ....... of a laser??

Not sure if serious.  

Also not sure is same exists or how it would be aimed .

Me thinks your vocalizations are coming from your posterior but apologize in advance if mistaken.
fisherman


IR lasers are very much available.  I designed construction lasers using them.  They were focused 5 and 10 mW so not (too) harmful.
Stronger laser diodes are easily available.

PEQ2 and PEQ15 military weapons lasers use an IR laser beam and an adjustable IR lamp for use with NVGs.
Link Posted: 6/22/2011 2:47:14 PM EDT






















Link Posted: 6/22/2011 2:51:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hondaciv:
Is there a video of them doing it?  I'd like to see it.


was on fox news or fox business last night.  couldn't find a good video just now but I didn't spend a lot of time searching.
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