First of all, I am agnostic, so please forgive my ignorance. Back when I ddin't believe in God, I got into several arguments aobut what created the Universe, People told me that God created it, I asked what created God and they said that he was just there. I would ask them then why don't they believe that the universe just started and It was just there. None of them agreed with me but I still never got an answer as to what created God. Can any of you answer this for me without getting into a pissing match?

If you believe in the God of the Christian faith, IMHO you accept by faith that He always has been and always will be (IOW, He was not "created" by anyone/anything).  You also accept that we don't fully understand that because we can't fully understand that, because we aren't supposed to fully understand that.  If that faith isn't there, IMHO no amount of explanation/argument/etc. is going to mean anything to you  (see my sig-line ).  

(Edited to add "fully" x3 above.)

I wonder how much stuff God did not tell us because we would not understand. I can imagine him telling a old testment prophet , I created a giant explosion that created trillions of galaxies that are expanding into space at the speed of light.  Huh.

If you ask this, you pretty much are guaranteed to not be a person of Faith.

That's where the Faith comes from.

God is eternal.  You believe it or you don't.

Next question?

What created G-d?

_____________________________________________

How may one explain the inexplicable of g-ds nature, much less the force that created G-d?

Both may be inter-twined, is as much as much of the Torah literally indicates that G-d he is who what he is, or is what he will become.  Similar also is the growing knowledge of G-d portrayed to Jews as both G-d and the Israelites understanding of G-d matures through the texts of the Torah; a symbiotic relationship is revealed.

To those earlier posts, and this is not intentioned as a "slam", but to have put forth such patent answers to such a question have lost the idea of the text of the Torah, and are only left with idolic ideals of it's text.

Jewish Ed

Quoted: First of all, I am agnostic, so please forgive my ignorance. Back when I ddin't believe in God, I got into several arguments aobut what created the Universe, People told me that God created it, I asked what created God and they said that he was just there. I would ask them then why don't they believe that the universe just started and It was just there. None of them agreed with me but I still never got an answer as to what created God. Can any of you answer this for me without getting into a pissing match?

Firstly, you must understand the concept of God in the Christian idea:

I AM THAT I AM.

Now that seems quite cryptic and confusing at first, but it does make sense upon consideration.

The Christian concept of God is that God is The Eternal Being, fountainhead of all existence, source of all life and being, the origin of and continuance of and end of all things. When a Christian refers to God as being Eternal (with a big E), they are saying that God Himself has the attribute of being without beginning or end. He always was, always is, and always shall be.

Creator God is the source of all existence, thus Creator God does not Himself have a source, or THAT source would be the true God.

The Christian concept of God is as The Ultimate Being, who bows His knee to nothing, for nothing is greater than Him. To the Christian mind no being, no matter how powerful or glorious, who was created by any being or any force is even worthy of the title of God Almighty. Christian theology even goes so far as to say that Christ Himself has His source in God The Father, who Alone is the source of all existence, even of The Divine Son and Holy Spirit, for The Son is the "only begotten" of God and who does all things for "the glory of God The Father".

Our human eyes see a beginning, growth, decay, and death of all things. It is the "natural" order that  governs everything we can see or touch. But as Creator, God Himself is not bound by the same laws as the universe He created. Thus God requires no source because He IS The Source of all things.

The Eternal nature of God is one of the attributes of God's charachter that has been revealed by God Himself through scripture. It is accepted not because it fits into any equation we have handy, but because we as limited creatures acknowledge the Soveriegn and Supreme Nature of Creator God.

Everything within the known universe, however, DOES have a beginning, DOES have growth, DOES have decay, and DOES die. God not being bound by the laws that govern the universe that is inferior to Him makes sense. But the universe itself not being governed by the laws that we see governing it seems to be a bit of a stretch to me.

Firstly, you must understand the concept of God in the Christian idea:

I AM THAT I AM.

______________________________________________

Well, there John...'don't mean to imply you're shooting from the hip, though the Hebrew text may also be understood as:

I AM WHAT I WILL BECOME

I would suggest you instead learn the nature of the heart, and...study more.



The Jewish Ed

Quoted: If you ask this, you pretty much are guaranteed to not be a person of Faith.

I am a person of Faith, but I am not Christian. I am, in fact, agnostic. Please don't say I have no faith because I truly believe in what I say. (How many of you guys can see you've seen a ghost?)

No one here has convinced me of anything yet, you all use the same arguments that other people have.  Just to play Devils Advocate here, What if there is no God and the Universe was just always there and always will be?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoted:
If you ask this, you pretty much are guaranteed to not be a person of Faith.
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I am a person of Faith, but I am not Christian. I am, in fact, agnostic. Please don't say I have no faith because I truly believe in what I say. (How many of you guys can see you've seen a ghost?)

No one here has convinced me of anything yet, you all use the same arguments that other people have. Just to play Devils Advocate here, What if there is no God and the Universe was just always there and always will be?

___________________________________________________________________

Conviction, or non-conviction in an religion is secondary to conviction and dedication of one's life to an ethos.

Even if G-d were a manufactury of humankinds expression or need to feel connected with something greater than themselves, it doesn't matter.

A life built upon ethics, which may generally be summed-up in the rule of law re: our relationship and obligations to our fellows, has ultimate value.



Jewish Ed

Quoted: Quoted: If you ask this, you pretty much are guaranteed to not be a person of Faith. I am a person of Faith, but I am not Christian. I am, in fact, agnostic. Please don't say I have no faith because I truly believe in what I say. (How many of you guys can see you've seen a ghost?) No one here has convinced me of anything yet, you all use the same arguments that other people have.  Just to play Devils Advocate here, What if there is no God and the Universe was just always there and always will be?

As a Christian, I believe you cannot be a person of Faith and not a Christian.

So, you are not a person of faith.  
Agnostic by definition means no faith.    

Oxford Dictionary:  Agnostic: a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

Figure out what YOU are before you question others on what THEY are.  No one here is trying
to convince you of anything.  I could care less whether you have faith or not, but as a Christian
I am absolutely certain of what will happen to you if you don't.

Quoted: Quoted: What if there is no God and the Universe was just always there and always will be? My guess is, as long as you have 'faith' in that statement, you're as right as anyone else.

He is not allowed to have faith, he has claimed to be an Agnostic.  Agnostics have no faith.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you ask this, you pretty much are guaranteed to not be a person of Faith. I am a person of Faith, but I am not Christian. I am, in fact, agnostic. Please don't say I have no faith because I truly believe in what I say. (How many of you guys can see you've seen a ghost?) No one here has convinced me of anything yet, you all use the same arguments that other people have.  Just to play Devils Advocate here, What if there is no God and the Universe was just always there and always will be? As a Christian, I believe you cannot be a person of Faith and not a Christian. So, you are not a person of faith.   Agnostic by definition means no faith.     Oxford Dictionary:  Agnostic: a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God. Figure out what YOU are before you question others on what THEY are.  No one here is trying to convince you of anything.  I could care less whether you have faith or not, but as a Christian I am absolutely certain of what will happen to you if you don't.

OK, I made a mistake, I am not agnostic, I don't know what I am because I have a religion all my own. I did not question anyone on what they are, I just wanted to see if somebody had a better argument then what I have been hearing.

scuba-ed, you raise a very good point and I feel that some religions where made-up so people would behave in the days before police officers.

A lot of people or a group of people that started a religion, I have no doubt that they saw something or dreamed something that made them believe, and I believe people can be a person of  faith even if they aren't a person of my particular faith, TexasSIG. Maybe it is all a hoax set forth by one God because he got bored one day.

Quoted: OK, I made a mistake, I am not agnostic, I don't know what I am because I have a religion all my own. I did not question anyone on what they are, I just wanted to see if somebody had a better argument then what I have been hearing. scuba-ed, you raise a very good point and I feel that some religions where made-up so people would behave in the days before police officers. A lot of people or a group of people that started a religion, I have no doubt that they saw something or dreamed something that made them believe, and I believe people can be a person of  faith even if they aren't a person of my particular faith, TexasSIG. Maybe it is all a hoax set forth by one God because he got bored one day.

May be, but you have to understand that as a Christian, I have none of these lingering doubts, and as a Christian I know that those that do have doubts and no faith are, to put it bluntly, FUBAR.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What if there is no God and the Universe was just always there and always will be? My guess is, as long as you have 'faith' in that statement, you're as right as anyone else. He is not allowed to have faith, he has claimed to be an Agnostic.  Agnostics have no faith. Not allowed? From dictionary.com: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. I think there is plenty of 'faith' to go around.

That's real nice.  Dictionary.com is the same site that got a member banned temporarily for it's
BS definitions of words.  Let's stick with real dictionaries; MW, Oxford American, etc.

Oxford American uses:

a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God

Quoted: Quoted: OK, I made a mistake, I am not agnostic, I don't know what I am because I have a religion all my own. I did not question anyone on what they are, I just wanted to see if somebody had a better argument then what I have been hearing. scuba-ed, you raise a very good point and I feel that some religions where made-up so people would behave in the days before police officers. A lot of people or a group of people that started a religion, I have no doubt that they saw something or dreamed something that made them believe, and I believe people can be a person of  faith even if they aren't a person of my particular faith, TexasSIG. Maybe it is all a hoax set forth by one God because he got bored one day. May be, but you have to understand that as a Christian, I have none of these lingering doubts, and as a Christian I know that those that do have doubts and no faith are, to put it bluntly, FUBAR.

OK.

Quoted:

Probably a good idea.  I have a feeling we are ALL going to regret there being a Religion forum

He is the 'Creator', everything else is 'created' by Him.

To say he was created by someone/something is to deny one of the qualities which makes him God.

Quoted: He is the 'Creator', everything else is 'created' by Him. To say he was created by someone/something is to deny one of the qualities which makes him God.

that "insight" is about as funny as the scene in ANIMAL HOUSE, where donald sutherland is explain that our entire universe could be under the fingernail of somebody......so that means there could be a different entire universe, under your fingernail.

Quoted: Quoted: He is the 'Creator', everything else is 'created' by Him. To say he was created by someone/something is to deny one of the qualities which makes him God. that "insight" is about as funny as the scene in ANIMAL HOUSE, where donald sutherland is explain that our entire universe could be under the fingernail of somebody......so that means there could be a different entire universe, under your fingernail.

possibly, but you must realize that there would have to be an "ultimate fingernail" in which other fingernails would recusively exist underneath.

Quoted: possibly, but you must realize that there would have to be an "ultimate fingernail" in which other fingernails would recusively exist underneath.

not really.........who says there has to be a ultimate anything? it just could be a circle, that has no ultimate anything. so really there would be no ultimate or "god".

Quoted: Quoted: possibly, but you must realize that there would have to be an "ultimate fingernail" in which other fingernails would recusively exist underneath. not really.........who says there has to be a ultimate anything? it just could be a circle, that has no ultimate anything. so really there would be no ultimate or "god".

how can it be a circle?  how can a small fingernail encompass a larger fingernail?

Quoted: Firstly, you must understand the concept of God in the Christian idea: I AM THAT I AM.

Fixed.  

As Christ spoke of Himself "Before Abraham was, 'I am.' "

Quoted: how can it be a circle?  how can a small fingernail encompass a larger fingernail?

who says that there is large and small fingernails? the fingernails can be the same size.

Quoted: Well, there John...'don't mean to imply you're shooting from the hip, though the Hebrew text may also be understood as: I AM WHAT I WILL BECOME I would suggest you instead learn the nature of the heart, and...study more. The Jewish Ed

My study is just fine:

"11And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?

  12And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.

  13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

  14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

  15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. "

Exodus 3

Quoted: Quoted: how can it be a circle?  how can a small fingernail encompass a larger fingernail? who says that there is large and small fingernails? the fingernails can be the same size.

Forgive me for saying so, but I am not about to take Animal House as a philosophical basis upon which to bet my entire existence.

Fingernails indeed!

My study is just fine:

"11And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?

12And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.

13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

___________________________________________________________________

The majority of Jewish commentators have understood both occurrences of Ehyeh to convey the future tense and to mean: "I will be what tomorrow demand."

That's the interpretation of the Torah Commentary on this section.  Are you referring to another Torah, or a re-interpreted text?

Jewish Ed

Quoted: Forgive me for saying so, but I am not about to take Animal House as a philosophical basis upon which to bet my entire existence. Fingernails indeed!

but yet you will take,  the poof you are here, as a sound basis for existance.

Quoted: but yet you will take,  the poof you are here, as a sound basis for existance.

Uhhh.....

the "poof" I am here??

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What if there is no God and the Universe was just always there and always will be? My guess is, as long as you have 'faith' in that statement, you're as right as anyone else. He is not allowed to have faith, he has claimed to be an Agnostic.  Agnostics have no faith.

untrue

you can have faith in Taoism or Buddhism without believing in God.

I'm an atheist and an agnostic and I have faith

Quoted: First of all, I am agnostic, so please forgive my ignorance.

Hebrews 11:6 Now without faith it is impossible to please him, for the one who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

You can interpret that to mean, God does not take your "ignorance" so lightly.  He makes no promise to satisfy your curiosity as long as you maintain this stance.

You must believe two things: 1) that He exists and 2) that He is true to his promises.  If you beilieve that He is trustworthy in His statements about rewarding those who seek Him, He will receive you.

Quoted: Quoted: but yet you will take,  the poof you are here, as a sound basis for existance. Uhhh..... the "poof" I am here??

yes............poof, "god" created

Here goes an over simplified version of my own.
A Bible verse says God is a Spirit. The Mormon Prophet Joeseph Smith said Spirit is matter. Science says matter can neither be created or destroyed. Therefore God has always existed!
(Mormons believe God has a body and spirit though.) Hows that for simple?

If something created God, then WHAT CREATED IT?

sounds like an endless argument to me...


I think that limiting God to the physics that He created is ridiculous anyway. God created time, and now we think He is bound by it? Not hardly...

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So you haven't seen a ghost who cares does this mean you don't believe in ghosts? Ok just because you haven't seen a million bucks does it mean there is none?  God has mercy on people like you.... you you....

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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What if there is no God and the Universe was just always there and always will be? My guess is, as long as you have 'faith' in that statement, you're as right as anyone else. He is not allowed to have faith, he has claimed to be an Agnostic.  Agnostics have no faith. untrue you can have faith in Taoism or Buddhism without believing in God. I'm an atheist and an agnostic and I have faith How can you be both an atheist and an agnostic? You are either one of the other, if you are aware of the correct meaning of the words.

****Edited****<va-gunnut>







btw G-man, how've ya been?  Haven't caught up with you in awhile.

Quoted: Firstly, you must understand the concept of God in the Christian idea: I AM THAT I AM. ______________________________________________ Well, there John...'don't mean to imply you're shooting from the hip, though the Hebrew text may also be understood as: I AM WHAT I WILL BECOME I would suggest you instead learn the nature of the heart, and...study more. The Jewish Ed

You can also say "I shall be what I will be." since the verb "eyeh" is a tense of the verb, to be.
Always seemed to me a polite G-d way of saying mind your own business.

Quoted: How can you be both an atheist and an agnostic? You are either one of the other, if you are aware of the correct meaning of the words.

you seem to be the one who is not aware of quite a few things, do me a favor and don't tell me what I am and I won't tell you what you are...

I do not think God  (if he exists) is anything we can truly understand and is beyond our means to prove or disprove.   That makes me an agnostic.  I think the evidence for the existence of God is very slim and amounts mostly to "we can't explain it , it must be God"

I do not believe in any deity or deities, so I am an atheist.  I use the same logic I used when deciding that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny were not real.   I can't prove any of them don't exist (or that IIPEW's don't exist either) but I see no need to believe in them without evidence.

If I were to convert to a theistic religion like Christianity or Islam, I would still be an agnostic because I don't believe you can prove or disprove God.

If new evidence surfaces, I may change my mind about my atheism, but to sway me from my agnosticism would be require something earth shattering.   Like speaking with God directly and him telling me he is a very simple creature my limited human mind can comprehend fully....

If your aware of set theory then atheism is a set and theism is a set, they are exclusive of each other.  agnosticism is a set that has an area within theism, an area within atheism, and an area all its own (pure agnosticism)

Pure agnostics are few and far between, most people look at the available evidence and fall on one side or the other.

For a much better overview (and the slippery nature) of agnosticism, you can head here:
www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm

Quoted: I wonder how much stuff God did not tell us because we would not understand. I can imagine him telling a old testment prophet , I created a giant explosion that created trillions of galaxies that are expanding into space at the speed of light.  Huh.

He could give it a go, what's the harm?  At least we could write down the answers for future generations.

Quoted: btw G-man, how've ya been?  Haven't caught up with you in awhile.

Outstanding.

Employed, and  witing for my SBR paper work.

Yerself??