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Posted: 3/14/2005 8:29:33 AM EST
What Bible passage states that a woman must give herself to her husband? Is there such a thing? Or is this just Catholic belief?

Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:35:45 AM EST
Romans 1:27
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.



No wait thats not it...


try....


Ephesians

5:22
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

5:24
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.


Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.



Among several others

Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:36:15 AM EST
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Ephesians 5:21-23
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:37:04 AM EST
is this the troll account for sarge?
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:37:10 AM EST
[homer] submit sub...ahhhhhh[/homer]
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:37:23 AM EST
tagged to see where it goes....
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:38:03 AM EST
<firefly>Whoa, good bible.</firefly>
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:39:18 AM EST
Yes, but....there is a caveat there. My wife would know as i try to use that to my benefit sometimes. The caveat being that the husband is to love his wife as he does Christ or something. I am theologically challenged so the more scholarly here among us can clarify...
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:42:06 AM EST
1 Peter, Chapter 3

3:1
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

3:2
While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

3:3
Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

Don't let her wear gold, braid her hair either!


Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:42:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By skpp108:
Yes, but....there is a caveat there. My wife would know as i try to use that to my benefit sometimes. The caveat being that the husband is to love his wife as he does Christ or something. I am theologically challenged so the more scholarly here among us can clarify...



"Careful there Pea. You're getting in over your head." - Gus McCray

A husband is to love his wife "as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it".

If you love your wife like that, why wouldn't she want to submit to your leadership?
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:47:30 AM EST
Yes, I knew it was something like that and my wife has reminded me of that-
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:48:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By WaWaTuSi:

Don't let her wear gold, braid her hair either!





Careful there, my friend. Let's read it in context:

1 Peter 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:


Paul is teaching that women ought to be "beautiful" through their "heart", not just through their dress and jewlery.

If he was condeming all "plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold,", then he must have also condemed "putting on of apparel". I don't think he was advocating going naked.

Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:48:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
A husband is to love his wife "as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it".

If you love your wife like that, why wouldn't she want to submit to your leadership?



+1

Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:49:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By mknherhappy:
What Bible passage states that a woman must give herself to her husband? Is there such a thing? Or is this just Catholic belief?




There is a parallel commandment that husbands are supposed to give themselves to their wives as well:

"3Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

1st Corinthians 7

The scripture taken as a whole is clear in demonstrating that both partners in the marriage have an obligation to the other person.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:50:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By WaWaTuSi:

Don't let her wear gold, braid her hair either!





Careful there, my friend. Let's read it in context:

1 Peter 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:


Paul is teaching that women ought to be "beautiful" through their "heart", not just through their dress and jewlery.

If he was condeming all "plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold,", then he must have also condemed "putting on of apparel". I don't think he was advocating going naked.




Amen. Context is your friend.

Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:52:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By kill-9:
<firefly>Whoa, good bible.</firefly>



That is the first thing I thought of...


ByteTheBullet (-:
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:53:52 AM EST
The question was already answered. Now for the why (this is from a rabinnical writing):


A certain wise woman said to her daughter before her marriage: "My child, stand before thy husband and minister to him. If thou wilt act as his maiden he will be thy slave, and honour thee as his mistress; but if thou exalt thyself against him, he will be thy master, and thou shalt become vile in his eyes, like one of the maidservants."



It would be a good idea to read up on Edersheim's (Edershiem ?) works where he went to great detail of Jewish society at the time the New Testament was written.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:00:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By mknherhappy:
What Bible passage states that a woman must give herself to her husband? Is there such a thing? Or is this just Catholic belief?




Flowers, soft music and a little wine will work a lot better than quoting scripture.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:04:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

A husband is to love his wife "as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it".

If you love your wife like that, why wouldn't she want to submit to your leadership?



What if he was an idiot? Seriously?
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:06:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:

Originally Posted By mknherhappy:
What Bible passage states that a woman must give herself to her husband? Is there such a thing? Or is this just Catholic belief?




Flowers, soft music and a little wine will work a lot better than quoting scripture.



+1



­
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:06:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

A husband is to love his wife "as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it".

If you love your wife like that, why wouldn't she want to submit to your leadership?



What if he was an idiot? Seriously?



Doesn't matter....

who's fault is it that she married an idiot?
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:06:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By mknherhappy:
What Bible passage states that a woman must give herself to her husband? Is there such a thing? Or is this just Catholic belief?




One of the best passages that is directed to BOTH husband and wife is I Corinthian Chapter 7. Historical context...The church at Corinth was in a bit of a mess. "Half" the church was chasing prostitutes and the "other half' felt that even sex in marriage was sinful. Paul addresses this second group in Chapter 7. He first repeats their saying 'that it is best that a man not touch a woman', but goes on to put sexuality in its correct context in marriage. As was posted by someone else, if you love your wife as Christ loved the church, gettin a little lovin isn't much of an issue. It is just gonna happen. :)

Unfortuately, most men pick and choose the submission passages for their wife while ignoring the commands to love their wife.

1 Corinthians 7:1-5
   1Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman." 2But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:11:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

A husband is to love his wife "as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it".

If you love your wife like that, why wouldn't she want to submit to your leadership?



What if he was an idiot? Seriously?



Well, hopefully by submitting herself to him, he will then value her and the relationship won't turn adversarial but be mutually supportive. She can then sway his decision making from idiotiic to less idiotic.

If she does not respect him, he will not value her and divorce will be on the horizon. If he insists on idiocy, prayer, a Darwin award, or divorce would be the only way out.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:16:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2005 9:19:22 AM EST by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

A husband is to love his wife "as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it".

If you love your wife like that, why wouldn't she want to submit to your leadership?



What if he was an idiot? Seriously?



There is a whole long teaching about authority and respect that would need to be fully presented to intelligently answer this question.

I don't have the time to begin to teach it all....

You people are harder to teach than my Sunday School class.....



The cliifs notes are basically this:

1. The husband and wife are expected to MUTUALLY SUBMIT. The husband to the emotional, physical, and financial NEEDS of the wife, and the wife to the leadership of her husband.

2. The husband is required to love his wife like he loves himself, and like Christ loves the church. A very high standard.

3. The wife, then, is required to follow the husband who loves her like Christ loves the church and to support his leadership of the home.

4. There are principles of Kingdom authority that are in play here as well.

Those 4 points would take hours to expound upon in requisite detail, but thems the basics.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:16:45 AM EST
The main point is that all aspects of the relationship should be for the benefit of BOTH parties.

These scriptures are not to be used as a tool for the man to coerce or manipulate the woman.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:19:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
The main point is that all aspects of the relationship should be for the benefit of BOTH parties.

These scriptures are not to be used as a tool for the man to coerce or manipulate the woman.



DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!

We have a winner!

Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:34:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

A husband is to love his wife "as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it".

If you love your wife like that, why wouldn't she want to submit to your leadership?



What if he was an idiot? Seriously?



John_Wayne777 gave the correct answer.

A Christian woman ought not to marry "an idiot". But, if her husband makes bad decisions, she should give him good, Scriptual advice, in private, and help him make better decisions.

But once he feels that he is doing what God wants him to do, it is his wife's duty to support him and pray for him.

Here's where the rest of the story lies.

A husband that then makes the wrong decision is totally responsible for what happens as a result. The wife is blameless.

Therefore, any Christian man ought to be very careful about going against the advice of his wife. He, as the head of the household and priest of the family, will bear total responsibility to God for his actions.



Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:40:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2005 9:43:17 AM EST by u-baddog]

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:

Originally Posted By mknherhappy:
What Bible passage states that a woman must give herself to her husband? Is there such a thing? Or is this just Catholic belief?




Flowers, soft music and a little wine will work a lot better than quoting scripture.



Your right with that one.

About two years ago one of the guys my office started going to a new church. This minister told him to not let the wife decide anything important. HE WAS THE LEADER OF THE HOUSE and he needed her to SUBMIT to his will. The church helped him by sitting down with the wife and the minster told them " Eve screwed the pooch in the garden of eden, so chicks cant be trusted.
This poor guy get assigned his own "prayer partner " who was supposed to help him. The prayer partner was some other guy who was having troubles too It was supposed to help them both by giving them someone to speak with when they felt like they couldnt walk in the spirit of jesus. My co-worker was to help his prayer parnter with problems, one problem was he was a MAN SLUT ????
The "prayer partner " told my co-workers wife when he was alone with her that he really didnt think the wife being a 2nd class person was right. All while telling my co-worker how he needed to take charge of his wife.

HAHAHAHAH The wife bitched about the new church to her husband for year. HE then put his footdown and said " I AM THE MAN AND GOD SAYS I AM IN CHARGE , FORGET ABOUT IT AND BE HAPPY. He was so proud of himself the day he told us.

So she started fucking the " prayer partner " the church had assigned her husband . This went on for months. My co-worker would come home after work to find this guy coming out of his shower and explained it away by saying the guy works constuction and need a shower before bible study.

My co-worker went home early one day and found his wife and his " prayer partner " praying very loudly upstair . OH GOD, OH GOD, YES ,YES, OH GOD, YES ...........in his bed.

He forgave them both right away. He said WWJD. I said I dont know what jesus would but John would kick someones ass.
He did leave that church.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:41:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

What if he was an idiot? Seriously?



Before they got married?

Or did he go dumb after the wedding?

I've seen some women turn an incredibly blind eye toward psychopathic tendancies rather than call off the wedding.

Sad. Really.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:42:35 AM EST
tag
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:43:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

A husband is to love his wife "as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it".

If you love your wife like that, why wouldn't she want to submit to your leadership?



What if he was an idiot? Seriously?



There is a whole long teaching about authority and respect that would need to be fully presented to intelligently answer this question.

I don't have the time to begin to teach it all....

You people are harder to teach than my Sunday School class.....



The cliifs notes are basically this:

1. The husband and wife are expected to MUTUALLY SUBMIT. The husband to the emotional, physical, and financial NEEDS of the wife, and the wife to the leadership of her husband.

2. The husband is required to love his wife like he loves himself, and like Christ loves the church. A very high standard.

3. The wife, then, is required to follow the husband who loves her like Christ loves the church and to support his leadership of the home.

4. There are principles of Kingdom authority that are in play here as well.

Those 4 points would take hours to expound upon in requisite detail, but thems the basics.


So the Cliff Notes of your answer is: "Yes, even if the husband is an idiot, she should respect his authority and position in the household."

As an example, lets take a guy who is just itching to spend 30k on a bass boat, even though the family is living paycheck to paycheck. It's his main hobby, the kids would love it, but it would send them over the financial edge, and the wife knows it, even though hubby is in denial. By your statements, she should support his decision even though all adults looking on, can see it will become a big problem for the family unit.

Now I know you will take the easy way out of this and say 'If he himself was a man of god, he would know not to buy the boat in the first place." This isn't the question, the guys mind is made up to purchase.

Hey, I'm all for the husband (should he be interested in the position) being the head of the household, but that does not mean he gets to operate without the possibility of comment or critique.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:54:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
So the Cliff Notes of your answer is: "Yes, even if the husband is an idiot, she should respect his authority and position in the household."



That is, to a large extent, true. The Bible says we are to respect ALL authority, even people who are unrighteous, simply because God commands it. All authority comes from God.

Now the wife, of course, has a choice in whom she marries. If she marries an idiot, then she is asking to be saddled to an idiot. If she sought God's will in the matter and went against His judgement....



As an example, lets take a guy who is just itching to spend 30k on a bass boat, even though the family is living paycheck to paycheck. It's his main hobby, the kids would love it, but it would send them over the financial edge, and the wife knows it, even though hubby is in denial. By your statements, she should support his decision even though all adults looking on, can see it will become a big problem for the family unit.



A BIGGER problem for the family unit would be for the wife to constantly nag the husband and to undermine his authority with the kids. Respecting the authority of the husband doesn't mean that she has to agree with everything he does. It DOES mean that she is not to try and undermine his authority or competence even if he does something disagreeable. To do that is to do far worse violence to the family than simply getting them in debt.

Respect for authority doesn't even BEGIN until there is a disagreement.



Now I know you will take the easy way out of this and say 'If he himself was a man of god, he would know not to buy the boat in the first place." This isn't the question, the guys mind is made up to purchase.



No, I am not taking that "easy way out" as you incorrectly put it. I am saying that honoring authority is a requirement no matter what they do. Bill Clinton is a good example. I disagree with him on just about every issue, but the man IS a former President of the United States and I will show him a level of respect and deference merely because he was elected as a leader of this nation.

I don't like him or agree with him, but I will respect him for the sake of the office.



Hey, I'm all for the husband (should he be interested in the position) being the head of the household, but that does not mean he gets to operate without the possibility of comment or critique.



The husband's Biblical authority is not a license to be a domestic hitler. Remember the whole "love your wives as Christ loved the church" thing? That paints the picture of a caring, nurturing husband who places the interests and well being of his wife far above his own wants and desires. That is what Christ did for the church, and it is what the husband is COMMANDED to do by God.

The wife still has input on how to guide the family, raise the kids, and to deal with everything else in the household. But whatever the issue, she ought to show the husband tremendous respect and ought always to seek his edification. She shouldn't talk bad about him to girlfriends. She shouldn't attempt to demean him EVER. Doing so hinders the blessings of God on the family.

Similarly, the husband ought to always respect his wife, loving and cherrishing her and treating her like the gift of God that she is.

A genuine Christian marriage is a thing of beauty.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:58:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By u-baddog:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:

Originally Posted By mknherhappy:
What Bible passage states that a woman must give herself to her husband? Is there such a thing? Or is this just Catholic belief?




Flowers, soft music and a little wine will work a lot better than quoting scripture.



Your right with that one.

About two years ago one of the guys my office started going to a new church. This minister told him to not let the wife decide anything important. HE WAS THE LEADER OF THE HOUSE and he needed her to SUBMIT to his will. The church helped him by sitting down with the wife and the minster told them " Eve screwed the pooch in the garden of eden, so chicks cant be trusted.
This poor guy get assigned his own "prayer partner " who was supposed to help him. The prayer partner was some other guy who was having troubles too It was supposed to help them both by giving them someone to speak with when they felt like they couldnt walk in the spirit of jesus. My co-worker was to help his prayer parnter with problems, one problem was he was a MAN SLUT ????
The "prayer partner " told my co-workers wife when he was alone with her that he really didnt think the wife being a 2nd class person was right. All while telling my co-worker how he needed to take charge of his wife.

HAHAHAHAH The wife bitched about the new church to her husband for year. HE then put his footdown and said " I AM THE MAN AND GOD SAYS I AM IN CHARGE , FORGET ABOUT IT AND BE HAPPY. He was so proud of himself the day he told us.

So she started fucking the " prayer partner " the church had assigned her husband . This went on for months. My co-worker would come home after work to find this guy coming out of his shower and explained it away by saying the guy works constuction and need a shower before bible study.

My co-worker went home early one day and found his wife and his " prayer partner " praying very loudly upstair . OH GOD, OH GOD, YES ,YES, OH GOD, YES ...........in his bed.

He forgave them both right away. He said WWJD. I said I dont know what jesus would but John would kick someones ass.
He did leave that church.



That "pastor" was a bonehead, and that theology/doctrine is totally out of order.

Please don't paint all of us with that same brush.

I cherish my wife as a gift from God. I have the responsibility for leadership and making decisions, but I seek counsel from her because she adds a different perspective on issues.

She submits to my leadership. This does not give me license to abuse and manipulate her. It is simply an acknowledgement by her of the responsibility for leadership that God has placed on my shoulders.

The hard part is me giving her something worth submitting to. I do my best to care for her, but usually feel like I come up short of what she really deserves.

The central point is that love is two people giving of each other for the benefit of the other.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 10:06:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2005 10:07:52 AM EST by u-baddog]

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Originally Posted By u-baddog:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:

Originally Posted By mknherhappy:
What Bible passage states that a woman must give herself to her husband? Is there such a thing? Or is this just Catholic belief?




Flowers, soft music and a little wine will work a lot better than quoting scripture.



Your right with that one.

About two years ago one of the guys my office started going to a new church. This minister told him to not let the wife decide anything important. HE WAS THE LEADER OF THE HOUSE and he needed her to SUBMIT to his will. The church helped him by sitting down with the wife and the minster told them " Eve screwed the pooch in the garden of eden, so chicks cant be trusted.
This poor guy get assigned his own "prayer partner " who was supposed to help him. The prayer partner was some other guy who was having troubles too It was supposed to help them both by giving them someone to speak with when they felt like they couldnt walk in the spirit of jesus. My co-worker was to help his prayer parnter with problems, one problem was he was a MAN SLUT ????
The "prayer partner " told my co-workers wife when he was alone with her that he really didnt think the wife being a 2nd class person was right. All while telling my co-worker how he needed to take charge of his wife.

HAHAHAHAH The wife bitched about the new church to her husband for year. HE then put his footdown and said " I AM THE MAN AND GOD SAYS I AM IN CHARGE , FORGET ABOUT IT AND BE HAPPY. He was so proud of himself the day he told us.

So she started fucking the " prayer partner " the church had assigned her husband . This went on for months. My co-worker would come home after work to find this guy coming out of his shower and explained it away by saying the guy works constuction and need a shower before bible study.

My co-worker went home early one day and found his wife and his " prayer partner " praying very loudly upstair . OH GOD, OH GOD, YES ,YES, OH GOD, YES ...........in his bed.

He forgave them both right away. He said WWJD. I said I dont know what jesus would but John would kick someones ass.
He did leave that church.



That "pastor" was a bonehead, and that theology/doctrine is totally out of order.

Please don't paint all of us with that same brush.

I cherish my wife as a gift from God. I have the responsibility for leadership and making decisions, but I seek counsel from her because she adds a different perspective on issues.

She submits to my leadership. This does not give me license to abuse and manipulate her. It is simply an acknowledgement by her of the responsibility for leadership that God has placed on my shoulders.

The hard part is me giving her something worth submitting to. I do my best to care for her, but usually feel like I come up short of what she really deserves.

The central point is that love is two people giving of each other for the benefit of the other.



He loved his wife and I really think he did the best he could by her. He drove her away by taking away choices they had aways shared. She struck back.

I wasnt painting anyone with any brush. The story is about a dumbass at my office. If others find themselves in the same boat they may learn something.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 10:12:44 AM EST
As it was explained to me by a priest and theologian, the man has the harder, and higher, responsibility. Yes, the wife is told to accept that the husband is the head of the family, but the husband is ordered to love his wife "as Christ loved the Church". Which means even unto the laying down of his life for her. That whole thing of women and children first, and men taking a bullet for the fairer sex, that did not exist before Christ. Does not everyone pretty much have to obey their boss at work? But are we called on by God to lay down our lives for the boss? Don't think so. Everything Christ did was for the Church. That is what is required of a man in marriage.
This is why it was like someone shooting me in the head with a nail gun when those goofy "promise keepers" came to DC once for group hug or some such nonsense. I honestly thought they were next going to start braiding each others hair. Keep your promises? That's setting the bar a little low. I would imagine that keeping ones word is right above "the importance of breathing" and below "this side of the fork holds the food."
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 10:45:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
The main point is that all aspects of the relationship should be for the benefit of BOTH parties.

These scriptures are not to be used as a tool for the man to coerce or manipulate the woman.



And if you need to quote the bible in order to get laid, you're one sad son of a bitch in the 1st place.
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 2:27:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By u-baddog:

I wasnt painting anyone with any brush. The story is about a dumbass at my office. If others find themselves in the same boat they may learn something.



OK, understood.

I just see a lot of, "All Christians are like this..." these days.
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 2:57:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Originally Posted By u-baddog:

I wasnt painting anyone with any brush. The story is about a dumbass at my office. If others find themselves in the same boat they may learn something.



OK, understood.

I just see a lot of, "All Christians are like this..." these days.



I stand back and look at this guy and wish I had the conviction and blind faith in god this guy has.
I step back a little farther and see the damange it has done to his family and think TOO much faith ?
Is that possible ?

OH here the kicker. His wife gave birth a 8 months ago. Do the math ?
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 3:30:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By u-baddog:
I stand back and look at this guy and wish I had the conviction and blind faith in god this guy has.
I step back a little farther and see the damange it has done to his family and think TOO much faith ?
Is that possible ?

OH here the kicker. His wife gave birth a 8 months ago. Do the math ?



There are a lot of people who claim the name of Christ but reproduce exactly NONE of His charachter. These people are not Christians:

" 3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

7Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.

9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him."

1st John 2

There is no such thing as too much faith in God's word. There IS such a thing as using the Bible to justify what you want to do anyway:

" 9And he [He being Jesus] said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

Mark 7

Giving to the temple was a tradition ordained byGod. But certain men had come along and tried to use something God had ordained and had turned it into an excuse to dodge the responsibility to take care of their elderly parents. Modern day pharisees do the same thing. They take the idea of female submission and then twist it and contort it to justify abusing and mistreating their wives with God's blessings, all the while ignoring the parts of scripture that plainly speak of how men are supposed to love their wives.

I can't tell you how many people IN THE CHURCH that have criticized girls and young women for dressing inappropriately or for fornication, calling them sluts, harlots, etc, and yet these same people wink and laugh when THEIR SONS are the ones spoiling the virginity of these girls. At least the girl thought she was loving someone, when the guy was just trying to get some.

It is heartbreaking and sickening to see. A woman comes to church wearing a pair of slacks (because it is the best clothing she can afford) and people waste no time in criticising her to scorn, and driving her away from the church and from Christ. Just the memory of this kind of thing is making me so angry I could smash something! There are people who grab a little piece of scripture that appeals to what they are already inclined to do, and then they use it as a justification! They don't go in to the Kingdom of Heaven, but they also bar the door and keep others from going in too!

In my church right now we are dealing with a pharisee who is resisting the work of The Spirit in the church and who is placing the souls of precious little ones in grave peril. It is tearing me up inside.
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 3:47:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/15/2005 3:48:56 AM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 3:51:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/15/2005 4:08:52 AM EST by Zaphod]

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

"Careful there Pea. You're getting in over your head." - Gus McCray

A husband is to love his wife "as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it".

If you love your wife like that, why wouldn't she want to submit to your leadership?




Because she's a mindless, selfish bitch?

Ask me how I know.....



ETA: I asked Trillian just the other day about this. I asked her what her opinion was concerning the role of the man as the head and pastor of the family.

To the first, her answer was, "Of course. That's the way it is supposed to be." To the second she answered, in effect, "That's fine, so long as you don't go too looney on me." The final answer? "I'll follow you anywhere, anytime."

For reasons I won't go into here, I honestly believe this woman is a gift ftom God. The differences are striking, and the discussions we have (which are pretty damned blunt; I don't have time to pussyfoot around), simply confirm it time and time again.

This woman will appreciate my role, be it biblical or cultural, as husband, head of the family, and family pastor. That doesn't mean I'm perfect or that she won't ring my bell, HARD, when she thinks I'm out of line. That's the way it should be.

Someone once said that marriage is a 50/50 proposition. BULLSHIT! It's a 100/100 commitment. She must submit to him totally, and he must cherish and treat her like spun glass. Anything less on either end and the marriage will fail. I speak from experience, unfortunately.

Edited again for some key spelling goofs.
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 3:56:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

"Careful there Pea. You're getting in over your head." - Gus McCray

A husband is to love his wife "as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it".

If you love your wife like that, why wouldn't she want to submit to your leadership?




Because she's a mindless, selfish bitch?

Ask me how I know.....



Right you are.

I should have said, "If you love your wife like that, why wouldn't shouldn't she want to submit to your leadership?

Then, your answer applies.

As you know, my good friend, all we can do in this life is the best we can do. We cannot control what others do. They will have to answer to God for their actions.

We, for ours.


Link Posted: 3/15/2005 3:59:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/15/2005 4:00:31 AM EST by u-baddog]

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By u-baddog:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:

Originally Posted By mknherhappy:
What Bible passage states that a woman must give herself to her husband? Is there such a thing? Or is this just Catholic belief?


Flowers, soft music and a little wine will work a lot better than quoting scripture.


Your right with that one.

About two years ago one of the guys my office started going to a new church. This minister told him to not let the wife decide anything important. HE WAS THE LEADER OF THE HOUSE and he needed her to SUBMIT to his will. The church helped him by sitting down with the wife and the minster told them " Eve screwed the pooch in the garden of eden, so chicks cant be trusted.
This poor guy get assigned his own "prayer partner " who was supposed to help him. The prayer partner was some other guy who was having troubles too It was supposed to help them both by giving them someone to speak with when they felt like they couldnt walk in the spirit of jesus. My co-worker was to help his prayer parnter with problems, one problem was he was a MAN SLUT ????
The "prayer partner " told my co-workers wife when he was alone with her that he really didnt think the wife being a 2nd class person was right. All while telling my co-worker how he needed to take charge of his wife.

HAHAHAHAH The wife bitched about the new church to her husband for year. HE then put his footdown and said " I AM THE MAN AND GOD SAYS I AM IN CHARGE , FORGET ABOUT IT AND BE HAPPY. He was so proud of himself the day he told us.

So she started fucking the " prayer partner " the church had assigned her husband . This went on for months. My co-worker would come home after work to find this guy coming out of his shower and explained it away by saying the guy works constuction and need a shower before bible study.

My co-worker went home early one day and found his wife and his " prayer partner " praying very loudly upstair . OH GOD, OH GOD, YES ,YES, OH GOD, YES ...........in his bed.

He forgave them both right away. He said WWJD. I said I dont know what jesus would but John would kick someones ass.
He did leave that church.


Sounds like that fellow found out one thing that he didn't previously know.

His wife was just a common whore.

I suppose he should take some comfort in finding out that bit of info.

Eric The(HopefullyAfterLeavingThatChurch,HeLeftTh­atWife)Hun



See blue for the leaving thing.

Wasnt that what he was supposed to do ?
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 4:04:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Right you are.

I should have said, "If you love your wife like that, why wouldn't shouldn't she want to submit to your leadership?

Then, your answer applies.

As you know, my good friend, all we can do in this life is the best we can do. We cannot control what others do. They will have to answer to God for their actions.

We, for ours.




Indeed, and I have a lot of 'splainin' to do.....

Fortunately, I have a good lawyer!
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 4:06:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By jmzd4:
is this the troll account for sarge?




No, my wife and I are fine thank you very much.


SGatr15
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 4:06:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/15/2005 4:09:53 AM EST by Zaphod]

Originally Posted By u-baddog:

Wasnt that what he was supposed to do ?



Yes, but please don't confuse forgiveness with living as a fool.

Christ Himself said that divorce as acceptable only in cases of adultery fornication. So he has every right (both in religious and secular terms) to divorce the slut and be rid of her. However, he is expected to forgive her her indiscression and move on.

It's not easy, but then again, being a Christian isn't supposed to be easy. It's why we have Him to pick up the pieces where we fail to measure up (and we ALL do).


Edited to correct terminology.
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 4:08:22 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 5:07:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By u-baddog:

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Eric The(HopefullyAfterLeavingThatChurch,HeLeftTh­atWife)Hun



See blue for the leaving thing.

Wasnt that what he was supposed to do ?


Yes, forgive them both and then come see me for a real quick divorce!

There's no requirement that Christians be idiots in their personal lives. There's no Oath of Cuckoldry that we must take.

Let the Teachings of Christ be our only guide:

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication,causeth her to commit adultery:and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery . Matthew 5:32

and:

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. Matthew 18:9

So, uh, fornication is a basis for divorce given by the Lord Himself.

I can live with that. Hopefully your friend's minister is telling him the same thing. Or maybe he's in on the gang-bang, as well?

Oh, well, fornication happens!

Eric The(HolierThanFew)Hun



Honest off-topic question here, guys.

Something I have pondered, as I know others have:

Remarriage.

and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery

and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery


So.....does that mean that I can't marry the divorced adulterer (what is sort of implied here)

or...does it mean that if I marry ANYONE who is divorced, i commit adultery?

(that's what it says......and I''ve read it in the original language, in the commentaries (most of which gloss over it as one would do any other unpleasantness that might offend people) and also in the writings of Paul....who implies that one, once divorced, should focus on living for christ, not looking for a new family - or so I gather, based on what he said about widows)

Serious question...and not meant to offend anyone, as I firmly believe in God's grace, and second chances (and third, and fourth....He has given ME more than that, for sure).

Anyway....I recently dated a girl who had been married before, and divorced by a poor excuse for a husbnad.

The issue came up.

I'd love to hear some honest, Biblical opinions on the subject.

Link Posted: 3/15/2005 5:14:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Anyway....I recently dated a girl who had been married before, and divorced by a poor excuse for a husbnad.

The issue came up.

I'd love to hear some honest, Biblical opinions on the subject.


A scripture comes to mind:

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Is adultry the "unforgivable sin"?
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 5:20:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Honest off-topic question here, guys.

Something I have pondered, as I know others have:

Remarriage.

and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery

and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery


So.....does that mean that I can't marry the divorced adulterer (what is sort of implied here)

or...does it mean that if I marry ANYONE who is divorced, i commit adultery?



Here's the thing: The person who is unfaithful in the marriage is the adulterer, and they carry that with them out of the marriage to. If you then hook up with them, you become an adulterer as well.

Now if the person was unfaithful, was divorced, then repented and began to live with Christ as Lord in deed as well as in word, then the person is pure before God and there is no obstacle to you marrying them. The same is true for someone who has fornicated. Fornication is a sin, but once the person genuinely repents, their sins are forgotten by God and in His eyes they are pure and virginal. So they should be in our eyes.

We should see people as He sees them, and we won't run into problems.



(that's what it says......and I''ve read it in the original language, in the commentaries (most of which gloss over it as one would do any other unpleasantness that might offend people) and also in the writings of Paul....who implies that one, once divorced, should focus on living for christ, not looking for a new family - or so I gather, based on what he said about widows)



Paul is right that we should focus on Christ, ESPECIALLY after having gone through something like a divorce. But it is clearly God's will for most of us to have a mate, for God Himself said that it is not good for man to be alone.

The key is to be with the mate that God has ordained, not the one we think is best. When we actively seek God's will in an area of our life and obey His voice, we will have His very best, and that includes the realm of finding a mate. If we hold out for God's choice, we will never regret it. The problem is that too many people today are birthing Ishmaels instead of waiting for Isaacs. When we try to help God out we end up in a mess. I have seen it more times than I can speak about.



Serious question...and not meant to offend anyone, as I firmly believe in God's grace, and second chances (and third, and fourth....He has given ME more than that, for sure).

Anyway....I recently dated a girl who had been married before, and divorced by a poor excuse for a husbnad.

The issue came up.

I'd love to hear some honest, Biblical opinions on the subject.



If she was the wronged party according to Jesus' definitions, then she is without sin and pure. If she was the unfaithful party and has since gotten herself straight with God, then she is without sin and pure, though I would urge you to be that much more careful to seek God's will and wisdom, because we can often see things as we wish to see them rather than as He does.

If she was the innocent party and is NOT living with Christ as Lord, then she is innocent of the sin of divorce but is still not healthy for you to be in relationship with. (Don't yoke yourself to an unbeliever or rebel....) If she is the guilty party and has not repented of it, then avoid her at all costs.

What someone did before they met Christ is of minimal importance to the Christian mindset, or at least it should be. Paul, after all, was a murderer and blasphemer before he encountered Jesus, but Jesus made him the greatest Gospel minister of all time. Let no man insult what God has cleansed.

It is what someone has done AFTER professing Christ that we need to be deeply concerned about. If they committed adultery AFTER professing Christ, then run like hell. If they divorced without the cause of adultery, abuse, or abandonment AFTER professing Christ, then run like hell.
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 5:25:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
A scripture comes to mind:

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Is adultry the "unforgivable sin"?



Once someone has GENUINELY repented and GENUINELY set Christ ever before them, then whatever they have done in their past is completely gone. There may be some physical evidences of past sin (like there was when David sinned with Bathsheba) but in God's eyes once repentence is made forgiveness is given and the transgression is no more. It is obliterated entirely from existence, tossed away as far as the east is from the west.

We have no right as Christians to hold anything against a person that God does not hold against them.
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