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Posted: 11/16/2008 5:40:30 PM EDT
An historical freedom rooted in the Constitution is the right to assemble with others

and express our opinions. Public demonstrations and civil disobedience have played a

significant role in changing public policies over the years, such as with the Civil Rights

Movement. With the preceding in mind, at what point do public demonstrations

become harmful or counter productive? Is the threshold simply when security officials

and the public are inconvenienced? Or is the threshold higher (such as when people

are intentionally assaulted or looting takes place)?
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 6:05:32 PM EDT
IMO it's when property damage starts and / or hateful insults by the protesters.

IE: I heard some of the gays in Cali. are saying some pretty offensive things about Christianity. I think they are hurting their cause when they do that.
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 6:12:01 PM EDT
Where do you draw the line if you are public LEO or private security?
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 6:47:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lowdrag82:
Where do you draw the line if you are public LEO or private security?



Simple: when property or personal damage is being done, IMO.


Link Posted: 11/16/2008 7:13:50 PM EDT
What if my rights are being violated? What if my right to get an abortion is being prevented or if I am trying to get from one end of the street to another?
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 7:46:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2008 7:53:08 PM EDT by turdferguson]
Originally Posted By lowdrag82:
What if my rights are being violated? What if my right to get an abortion is being prevented or if I am trying to get from one end of the street to another?


You don't have a right to abortion, the government just can't stop you from having one, I and anyone else can form a human circle in front of an abortion mill provided we stay on public property and "encourage" people to not go in.

Just like crazy anti-self defense types can do the same in front of a gun store, or code pink in front of the USMC recruiting center.

Also are you a female? Because I think only females have the right to an abortion, and wouldn't that make any legislation upholding this right only to women a violation of the 14th amendment?

Oh well, abortions for some, miniature American flags for others.

My point is that in America we don't have "positive" rights, we are not entitled to anything, we have "negative" rights, meaning we are free to pursue, and the government may not interfere in our pursuit to help or hinder.
Link Posted: 11/16/2008 8:20:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lowdrag82:
With the preceding in mind, at what point do public demonstrations become harmful or counter productive?


http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=time+place+manner+constitution+1st+amendment&y=Search

ar-jedi
Link Posted: 11/17/2008 4:14:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By turdferguson:
Originally Posted By lowdrag82:
What if my rights are being violated? What if my right to get an abortion is being prevented or if I am trying to get from one end of the street to another?


You don't have a right to abortion, the government just can't stop you from having one, I and anyone else can form a human circle in front of an abortion mill provided we stay on public property and "encourage" people to not go in.

Just like crazy anti-self defense types can do the same in front of a gun store, or code pink in front of the USMC recruiting center.

Also are you a female? Because I think only females have the right to an abortion, and wouldn't that make any legislation upholding this right only to women a violation of the 14th amendment?

Oh well, abortions for some, miniature American flags for others.

My point is that in America we don't have "positive" rights, we are not entitled to anything, we have "negative" rights, meaning we are free to pursue, and the government may not interfere in our pursuit to help or hinder.


I’m not talking about the government preventing me from exercising rights. What I trying to say is if you are attempting to utilize your right to assembly, protest, or even civil disobedience; when does LE draw the line and say protesters have crossed a line and LE or private security must intervene. Yes, where legal, women have a right to get an abortion, not guaranteed as a constitutional right, but if it is being physically prevented by a protest, then it is my belief that LE or private security needs to protect her right. I may not like abortion, but I hate people being denied their right to do what they want more. Does LE or private security have an obligation to secure her safety and right?
Link Posted: 11/17/2008 4:29:32 AM EDT
Umm, if you believe killing an unborn child, with different DNA than the mother, a "right", then we must respectfully disagree as to what constitutes a "right".

When we degrade human life to it's cellular level, then most anything can be rationalized. Remember what Mengele did to further "medical knowledge"?
Link Posted: 11/17/2008 4:38:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Semiautots:
Umm, if you believe killing an unborn child, with different DNA than the mother, a "right", then we must respectfully disagree as to what constitutes a "right".

When we degrade human life to it's cellular level, then most anything can be rationalized. Remember what Mengele did to further "medical knowledge"?


O.K., I need to get back on track. I tried to use the abortion issue as an example; maybe not such a good idea. Here is my question again.

An historical freedom rooted in the Constitution is the right to assemble with others

and express our opinions. Public demonstrations and civil disobedience have played a

significant role in changing public policies over the years, such as with the Civil Rights

Movement. With the preceding in mind, at what point do public demonstrations

become harmful or counter productive? Is the threshold simply when security officials

and the public are inconvenienced? Or is the threshold higher (such as when people

are intentionally assaulted or looting takes place)?

Look a the proposition 8 issue. The gays have worked themselves up into a froth over a percieved injustice. When would LE or even private security intervene, do they wait for actual violence to occur?


Link Posted: 11/17/2008 5:31:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lowdrag82:
What if my rights are being violated? What if my right to get an abortion is being prevented or if I am trying to get from one end of the street to another?




Rights violated or being merely inconvenienced by making one walk a bit further and/or circling? There's huge amounts of gray areas in what you're asking, IMO.

The old saying about how one's right to swing their fist ends at the end of another person's nose would apply here, IMO. Just as one has a right to assemble & protest, you (we/I) have the right to go about your own personal business without being physically or verbally attacked or harrassed.
Link Posted: 11/17/2008 6:21:03 PM EDT
Peaceful Assembly.

When demonstrators are deemed by law enforcement to pose a risk to rights of others then yes they should be disbanned peacefully if possible and by force if necessary. If they did not present such risks then they have the right to have their grievances heard infront of an impartial court.

Balance between chaos and order. The Founding Fathers were brillant and that's why they prserved the right of "peaceful assembly." If that doesnt' work we've got the Courts, and if the Courts will not work then we've got the Military sworn to uphold the Constitution. If all else fails we've got the Second Amendment that exists if it becomes necessary to do more than that.

The Constitution is a brillant work of man.



Link Posted: 11/20/2008 7:31:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2008 7:32:17 PM EDT by ths]
Free?!? FREE!?

You need a permission from the government to just about anything in this country via permits and licenses.

Carry concealed
Fish
Hunt
Open a business
the list goes on.....


A license for this , A permit for that.
Unconstitutional taxes.
List down SS for every goddamn thing.
Mandatory this , mandatory that.



Do you honestly believe we live a free society ? Think about that for a minute or two.







Link Posted: 11/20/2008 7:35:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ths:
Free?!? FREE!?

You need a permission from the government to just about anything in this country via permits and licenses.

Carry concealed
Fish
Hunt
Open a business
the list goes on.....


A license for this , A permit for that.
Unconstitutional taxes.
List down SS for every goddamn thing.
Mandatory this , mandatory that.



Do you honestly believe we live a free society ? Think about that for a minute or two.






No, I don't. We live in a relatively free society.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 7:36:57 PM EDT
When a man has a point he has a point

SADLY +1


Originally Posted By ths:
Free?!? FREE!?

You need a permission from the government to just about anything in this country via permits and licenses.

Carry concealed
Fish
Hunt
Open a business
the list goes on.....


A license for this , A permit for that.
Unconstitutional taxes.
List down SS for every goddamn thing.
Mandatory this , mandatory that.



Do you honestly believe we live a free society ? Think about that for a minute or two.









Link Posted: 11/20/2008 8:17:15 PM EDT
You also need a license for most protests.

If someone does not want you protesting, they can easily charge you with some BS thing. For example, "Impeding the sidewalk" or such nonsense was used as an attempt to silence crowds all the way back to Women's Suffrage type stuff.

If someone in power wants you gone, it can happen.

I once said to a British girl "hey it's a free country" and she laughed at my stupidity. I've never looked at this country the same. It took a British girl laughing at my foolishness for me to get outraged at what we've become.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 8:29:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2008 8:29:54 AM EDT by brickeyee]
Originally Posted By ths:
Free?!? FREE!?

You need a permission from the government to just about anything in this country via permits and licenses.

Carry concealed
Fish
Hunt
Open a business
the list goes on.....

A license for this , A permit for that.
Unconstitutional taxes.
List down SS for every goddamn thing.
Mandatory this , mandatory that.

Do you honestly believe we live a free society ? Think about that for a minute or two.




The alternative form of government are even less attractive.


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