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Posted: 1/28/2006 3:23:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 3:23:40 PM EDT by 1shott]
The scene where the towns people are burned alive in the church, by the british,

The british officer says this will be forgotten....


pisses me off to no ends....


I know it is a movie, but that scene really gets to me.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:28:46 PM EDT
Me too. Great movie though.

The thing thats pissing me off right now is the thought of Heath Ledger and Bareback Mountain.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:30:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 3:31:09 PM EDT by pv74]
You will want to run out and buy a flintlock musket...

I hate movies like that
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:32:06 PM EDT
You think you're pissed?

Ask the descendants of the real British officer (Col. William Tavington) portrayed in the movie.
He was an honorable man and nothing like that.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:34:58 PM EDT
Movie came out right after we'd finish our section on the Revolution in History 101. It really helped bring some of the battles and movements of the war alive for me.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:38:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
You think you're pissed?

Ask the descendants of the real British officer (Col. William Tavington) portrayed in the movie.
He was an honorable man and nothing like that.





He is british.....


I really pissded of a guy from england a few years back.

It was at a chruch and he was ranting about how bad America is, and how we dont know anything, so I walked up to him and told him to shut up and sit down.

He looked at me and said What did you say to me?

I said sit your ass down and shut the fuck up, before I shut you up. YOU WILL NOT come into my country and bad mouth it and myself, you will mind yourself.

He just looked at me with stunned eyes, his mouth was hanging open....

People started to gather round, I could see the preacher heading over at a run....

I then told him, you are a subject, I am a citizen, big differance there ole boy, and let me tell you what else your problem is,

You see you cant get over the fact that we kicked your ass in 1776, and again 1812 and then we had to come over there twice in one century to save your sorry asses....

So next time you want to run that mouth of yours, you had better not run it around me.

He sat down and never said another word. Come to think of it, everytime he saw me, he would stop and turn and head back the way he came, funny as all get out.



Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:39:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 3:41:50 PM EDT by DOW]
I thought the character "Col. Tavington" was based on this gentleman, no?



Sir Banastre Tarleton

TARLETON, Sir Banastre, bart., British soldier, born in Liverpool, 21 August, 1754 ; died in England, 23 January, 1833. He came to America with Lord Cornwallis in Sir Peter Parker's squadron in May, TARLETON 1776. He was major in Colonel Harcourt's regiment of dragoons, and accompanied Harcourt in the raid upon Baskingridge, New Jersey, which resulted in the capture of General Charles Lee, 13 December Little is heard of him during the next three years. In December, 1779, he accompanied the expedition of Sir Henry Clinton to South Carolina with the rank of lieutenant-colonel. He raised and organized a troop known as the "British legion," or sometimes as "Tarleton's legion." It comprised both light infantry and cavalry, with a few fieldpieces, and was thus a miniature army in itself. It was made up partly of British regulars, partly of New York loyalists, and was further recruited by loyalists of South Carolina. At the head of this legion Tarleton soon made himself formidable in partisan warfare. In the difficult country of the Carolinas, with poor roads, frequent swamps or pine-barrens, and scant forage, he could move far more rapidly than the regular army, and his blows were delivered with sudden and crushing effect. After Clinton's capture of Charleston, 12 May, 1780, Colonel Buford's regiment, which had been marching toward Charleston, began its retreat to Virginia, but Tarleton, giving chase, overtook and overwhelmed it at Waxhaw Creek, near the border between the two Carolinas. Nearly all Buford's men were slaughtered, and thenceforth the phrase " Tarleton's quarter " was employed to denote wholesale butchery.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 4:22:48 PM EDT
I believe that the reason that the British massacred the Americans in that incident was that Tarleton was attacked while negotiating under a flag of truce. This rather pissed off the British soldiers. Tarleton himself didn't have much to do with it.

The Patriot was one of two recent Hollywood movies that British politicians demanded an apology from Hollywood for, due to discrepancy with real life.

NTM
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 4:29:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 4:31:11 PM EDT by the_great_snag]
Yeah, I suppose Hollywood had to make the British troops look like demons, rather than what were at the time, our fellow countrymen. Men beside which many of our patriots fought in previous wars...

The actual reasons for the revolution probably weren't interesting enough for them, and besides it made it look much more PC to portray them as the forerunners of the SS...

ETA: Still a great movie though!

I'm rather saddened though that there was a real Col. Tavington and that his descendants have suffered any kind of disgrace because of a freaking ficitonalized movie...
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 4:35:39 PM EDT
British appolgists can paint things how they like.

Tarelton was a butcher.

He had no honor.

I'm not sorry he is treated like the foul bastard he was.

He can burn in hell.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 4:44:21 PM EDT
Morgan almost got Tarleton at Cowpens. Handed him his a$$ and helped secure the South. Good battle. Tarleton was a bastard.

Link Posted: 1/28/2006 4:54:40 PM EDT
The Patriot is refered to by most 18th century historians as "Lethal Musket"

It has nothing to do with the truth, truth was not important to the director.

While truth was not important, anti British propaganda by the german director was very important.

The infamous church scene, the lack of American cannons ripping thru the Brit lines like the Brit arty did to the Americans ect ect ect

I was very happy that I passed working on that movie.............................

Link Posted: 1/28/2006 4:56:45 PM EDT
Reminds me of Waco
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 5:06:27 PM EDT
I realize that The Patriot has nothing to do with real history, but it was a damn good movie; one of my all time favorites. It wasn't the history that made it great, it was the story of someone having to defend their home and family, even though they did everything to avoid it. That is what makes it such a great movie for me.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 5:10:17 PM EDT
good MOVIE, i dont care who it offended.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 5:11:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tanam:
good MOVIE, i dont care who it offended.



+1
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 5:14:28 PM EDT
Ok, in case anyone was referring to my post, I was not trying to be a British apologist, but it did seem to me that they tried their damnedest to make the dragoons look like an SS Einsatzgruppen run amok!

And.. If i'm reading this right, there was a real Col. Tavington, but the asshole in the movie was actually a fictionalization of this other guy Tarleton? That sucks two ways. The presumably honorable officer's reputation (Tavington) is tainted, and the true asshole (Tarleton) gets a free pass by the people who see this movie and don't know any better...

Hollywood pisses me off sometimes... grrr

I would have expected better of Mel...
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 5:22:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By the_great_snag:
Ok, in case anyone was referring to my post, I was not trying to be a British apologist, but it did seem to me that they tried their damnedest to make the dragoons look like an SS Einsatzgruppen run amok!

And.. If i'm reading this right, there was a real Col. Tavington, but the asshole in the movie was actually a fictionalization of this other guy Tarleton? That sucks two ways. The presumably honorable officer's reputation (Tavington) is tainted, and the true asshole (Tarleton) gets a free pass by the people who see this movie and don't know any better...

Hollywood pisses me off sometimes... grrr

I would have expected better of Mel...



www.patriotresource.com/people/tarleton/page3.html

Fuck that no honor pig.

Hell's arms were wide open for him.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 5:47:14 PM EDT
I love it, even though it is fast and loose with the facts.

I think that movie fits so well with 2006 too.

You've got one army that wants to fight by the established rules of gentlemanly warfare. After all, they are the best navy in the world and one of the best armies, and they're only fighting "farmers with pitchforks". The one man that wants to kick ass and take names is demonized.

On the other side you have a master of asymetrical warfare. "A ghost or some damn thing, carrying a Cherokee tomahawk" who is learned and skilled in guerilla warfare from past conflicts on the frontier. He uses hit and run tactics, ambushes supply trains, aims for officers, and doesn't play by the rulebook. He's also "pretty impressive for farmers with pitchforks."

Gee, here we are in 2006, the mightest army to ever move across the earth, and we lack the political will to take off the gloves against a bunch of goat herders led by a ghost or some damn thing who carries a Soviet Krinkov.



Link Posted: 1/28/2006 6:01:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
You think you're pissed?

Ask the descendants of the real British officer (Col. William Tavington) portrayed in the movie.
He was an honorable man and nothing like that.



I suppose Tarleton's quarter doesn't ring any bells?
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 6:05:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
You think you're pissed?

Ask the descendants of the real British officer (Col. William Tavington) portrayed in the movie.
He was an honorable man and nothing like that.



I suppose Tarleton's quarter doesn't ring any bells?



OK... I'm getting really screwed up here now...

I'm gathering that there WAS a colonel Tavington, but the man called Tavington in the movie was actually based on the true person named Tarleton. So the Tavington thing was an unfortunate coincidence?

God I need a beer. This is giving me a headache...
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 6:09:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By crazyquik:
I love it, even though it is fast and loose with the facts.

I think that movie fits so well with 2006 too.

You've got one army that wants to fight by the established rules of gentlemanly warfare. After all, they are the best navy in the world and one of the best armies, and they're only fighting "farmers with pitchforks". The one man that wants to kick ass and take names is demonized.

On the other side you have a master of asymetrical warfare. "A ghost or some damn thing, carrying a Cherokee tomahawk" who is learned and skilled in guerilla warfare from past conflicts on the frontier. He uses hit and run tactics, ambushes supply trains, aims for officers, and doesn't play by the rulebook. He's also "pretty impressive for farmers with pitchforks."

Gee, here we are in 2006, the mightest army to ever move across the earth, and we lack the political will to take off the gloves against a bunch of goat herders led by a ghost or some damn thing who carries a Soviet Krinkov.






Sounds like you missed the message of the movie.
You take "the gloves off" and go after their families, and you only mae more neutrals your enemy.
Jesus people, read some fucking history.

Also - one thing that did bother me was the Militia using the American flag.
The militia would have been flying the Gadsden flag, not the American flag.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 6:15:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By the_great_snag:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
You think you're pissed?

Ask the descendants of the real British officer (Col. William Tavington) portrayed in the movie.
He was an honorable man and nothing like that.



I suppose Tarleton's quarter doesn't ring any bells?



OK... I'm getting really screwed up here now...

I'm gathering that there WAS a colonel Tavington, but the man called Tavington in the movie was actually based on the true person named Tarleton. So the Tavington thing was an unfortunate coincidence?

God I need a beer. This is giving me a headache...



You and me both.
I have taken a class or two on the american guerilla war during the AmRev, as well as the Southern Campaign of the AmRev.
Some kid did a report on the Battle of Cowpens (the final battle portrayed in the Patriot) in an english class, and he kept calling Tarleton, Tavington.

About drove me out of my damn mind.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 6:16:03 PM EDT
Never miss the forest for the trees, or the movie for the theme. Theme. Breath in, breath out....
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 6:48:33 PM EDT
some of the guys at work made started refering to me as the "neo-patriot" when i showed up with these:


course they also call me ranger rick cause i do transition fires at the range when our platoon seargent runs it.

most of them are just no fun.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:00:14 PM EDT
Jason Isaacs played Tavington in The Patriot. A year later he was Capt Mike Steele in Blackhawk Down.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:09:38 PM EDT
Still can't figure out what "aim small, miss small" means
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:31:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1shott:
The scene where the towns people are burned alive in the church, by the british,

The british officer says this will be forgotten....


pisses me off to no ends....


I know it is a movie, but that scene really gets to me.



Repeat after me:

The scene, like most of the movie, is complete and utter bullshit.

The British never did any such thing in the American Revolution, and some of the actors including Jason Isaacs, who played Tavington, and the few remaining reenactors who were still on the set, working as extras and training the other extras in military drill of the 18th century, protested bitterly about it, as well as about much of the film's utter contempt for reality, to the crew and director.

Isaacs was reminded of his contract and pretty much the rest of the reenactors walked off the set on that one. To his credit, Isaacs is the best thing in the movie. He takes a one-dimensional cardboard role and infuses it with humanity and ambiguity. Sometimes you want tro root for him- he's the only British soldier in the film who wants to do his job, and feels he has to overdo it in order to make up for Cornwallis' prissiness.

Which is historically, utter codswallop. Cornwallis was a tough, young general (42 at Yorktown) who was very energetic, and fought like a tiger.

The director Roland Emmerich is German. He wanted to tell the world that what Germany did in Russia in 1942 could be done by anybody anywhere. In other words, we are all guilty, so nobody's guilty. Nice idea, might work, but not here. It never happened in the American Revolution.



Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:32:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mauser101:
Movie came out right after we'd finish our section on the Revolution in History 101. It really helped bring some of the battles and movements of the war alive for me.



Too bad the battles weren't fought in real life the way they were in the movie.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:35:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
British appolgists can paint things how they like.

Tarelton was a butcher.

He had no honor.

I'm not sorry he is treated like the foul bastard he was.

He can burn in hell.





Victors write the histories. He wasn't a butcher any more than Robert E Lee or Grant was. He was just doing his job under the rules of the day.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:40:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:41:27 PM EDT
That movie was typical hollywood crapola.

Stupid fomula plot dumbed down to the point that any moron could enjoy it.

bad guy does something awful. good guy takes bloody revenge with a clear conscience.

it's the plot of every shoot-em-up made in the 1980's



bad guys kill the good guy's best buddy and kidnap his girlfriend

only they don't realize that he is an ex-vietnam vet. special forces

good guy goes and pulls out his trunk full of army shit he bought back from the Nam.

time for payback....
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:49:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 7:53:50 PM EDT by ScaryGuy]

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
You think you're pissed?

Ask the descendants of the real British officer (Col. William Tavington) portrayed in the movie.
He was an honorable man and nothing like that.



Okay: There was no real person named Tavington (Okay, there could have been, but not in any historical record I've read.)

There was a Banastre TARLETON, and from most accounts I've read, though not quite as bad as his reputation, he was still quite the ruthless son of a bitch.

Tavington was a fictional character loosely based on him, Just as Mel Gibson's Character was loosely based on Francis Marion, aka the Swamp Fox, and others.

SG
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:05:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By red65:
That movie was typical hollywood crapola.

Stupid fomula plot dumbed down to the point that any moron could enjoy it.

bad guy does something awful. good guy takes bloody revenge with a clear conscience.

it's the plot of every shoot-em-up made in the 1980's



bad guys kill the good guy's best buddy and kidnap his girlfriend

only they don't realize that he is an ex-vietnam vet. special forces

good guy goes and pulls out his trunk full of army shit he bought back from the Nam.

time for payback....



Well put.

Pretty much the same plot of so many of Mel's movies, going back to his Mad Max days. "This time, it's personal."
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:12:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:
Jason Isaacs played Tavington in The Patriot. A year later he was Capt Mike Steele in Blackhawk Down.



And that same year he played a gay transvestite in Sweet November
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:32:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:

Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:
Jason Isaacs played Tavington in The Patriot. A year later he was Capt Mike Steele in Blackhawk Down.



And that same year he played a gay transvestite in Sweet November



>cough< I must have missed that one...



He was also in a Harry Potter movie a while back....
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:13:05 PM EDT
Braveheart 2: This time the Americans will care about it.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:20:05 PM EDT
I know it is only hollywood,

It still pisses me off.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:53:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

Originally Posted By mcantu:

Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:
Jason Isaacs played Tavington in The Patriot. A year later he was Capt Mike Steele in Blackhawk Down.



And that same year he played a gay transvestite in Sweet November



>cough< I must have missed that one...



He was also in a Harry Potter movie a while back....



Yes, he did an excellent Lucius Malfoy IIRC...
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 12:05:34 AM EDT
You guys need to fucking ligthen up. It is a fucking movie. I thought it was entertaining.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 12:37:12 AM EDT
The best part was when the female stood up in church and talked smack without being burned at the stake. They might as well have given Mel Gibson's character an MP5.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 3:00:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

Originally Posted By 1shott:
The scene where the towns people are burned alive in the church, by the british,

The british officer says this will be forgotten....


pisses me off to no ends....


I know it is a movie, but that scene really gets to me.



Repeat after me:

The scene, like most of the movie, is complete and utter bullshit.

The British never did any such thing in the American Revolution, and some of the actors including Jason Isaacs, who played Tavington, and the few remaining reenactors who were still on the set, working as extras and training the other extras in military drill of the 18th century, protested bitterly about it, as well as about much of the film's utter contempt for reality, to the crew and director.

Isaacs was reminded of his contract and pretty much the rest of the reenactors walked off the set on that one. To his credit, Isaacs is the best thing in the movie. He takes a one-dimensional cardboard role and infuses it with humanity and ambiguity. Sometimes you want tro root for him- he's the only British soldier in the film who wants to do his job, and feels he has to overdo it in order to make up for Cornwallis' prissiness.

Which is historically, utter codswallop. Cornwallis was a tough, young general (42 at Yorktown) who was very energetic, and fought like a tiger.

The director Roland Emmerich is German. He wanted to tell the world that what Germany did in Russia in 1942 could be done by anybody anywhere. In other words, we are all guilty, so nobody's guilty. Nice idea, might work, but not here. It never happened in the American Revolution.






Preach on Brother Light Bob!
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 3:06:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

Originally Posted By Mauser101:
Movie came out right after we'd finish our section on the Revolution in History 101. It really helped bring some of the battles and movements of the war alive for me.



Too bad the battles weren't fought in real life the way they were in the movie.



Never said they did, though I can understand why you'd think so from my statement. I understood it was fiction, and in some places outright lies, but the movie still helped me visualize the fighting rather than as just names, places and dates.

I'm removed by a few thousand miles from the places this all took place so I can't grab a map and walk the fields like so many here are lucky enough to be able to do.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 3:36:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 3:56:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 4:34:02 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 4:17:27 AM EDT
A couple of our local* folks, Frank and Lally House, worked on the arms and accouterments of Mel Gibson and others in the movie.

Artists armed "The Patriot"

What the story doesn't mention is that Gibson was so taken with Frank's gun work that he commissioned Frank to build him a personal flintlock rifle. Gibson flew into the Bowling Green, KY airport and traveled up Hwy 31 to Frank's place to pick up the gun himself.

*Frank and Lally have since moved a little farther east in Kentucky
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 4:26:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 4:27:06 AM EDT by PSYWAR1-0]

Originally Posted By vito113:
1776: The 'New' Americans take.

Never ceased to be amazed by the concepts put forward about the War of Independence, usually by people who's ancestors didn't step off the boat at Ellis Island till the 1900's

In the beginning there was this peaceful country called 'The United States'. Then this evil English King called King George tried to tax them. When the people said 'NO!', he invaded the United States and started Massacreing all the people. Then this General called George Washington and the US Army defeated them and they all sailed back to England....

The End.


Actually,

There was no United States, they were 'The Colonies'

EVERYONE living in the Colonies was 'British'... no Mexicans and other illegals back in those days!

If the King had listened to Parliament and granted the 'Colonists' representation in Parliament, (Remember, 'No Taxation without Representation'), the situation would have been defused.

The Colonies actually didn't want to seperate from Britain.. read up on the 'Olive Branch Petition'.

George Washington was an Officer in the Kings Army before the war, as were many of his officers and men.

Britain had no stomach for the war, it was hugely unpopular back in England, so many men refused to join the army in case they were sent to fight against their 'own people' in the Colonies, the King was reduced to using German Mercenaries and Scottish Regiments to do much of the fighting.

Much of the fighting was the locals duking it out.

Over half a million 'Americans' left for Canada or sailed back to Britain after the War.

Both sides were happy to call it quits. The 'Americans' settled for a poor peace in their anxiety to end the war. Britain was willing to concede much more territory, (a large chunk of Canada), if needed to get a peace treaty.



The War of Independence was a just war fought for just reasons between it's OWN people.

Draft Dodging 'Born Again Patriots' like Mel Gibson, rewriting history does nothing to enhance the war and merely demneans it's significance.

It's a Hollywierd thing.. look at 'Pearl Harbor'... what a disgraceful travesty of a film! The utterly ridulous 'Pylon Race' between the Zeros and the P40's reduced the courageous actions of the few pilots that did get into the air to merely spectacle.


ANdy




What I wish everyone would understand is that there was representation, in the form of George Washington, who if he had not ambused the French Diplomats, and started the F&I War, would not have bankrupted the Crown, and led to the taxes.

Link Posted: 1/29/2006 4:28:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Still can't figure out what "aim small, miss small" means



If you aim at a man and miss a little you miss the man. If you aim at a button on his shirt and miss a little you still hit him in the chest. Thus aim at a small object and miss a small amount. Got it???
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 4:45:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
Draft Dodging 'Born Again Patriots' like Mel Gibson, rewriting history does nothing to enhance the war and merely demeans it's significance.




You're being quite disingenuous to call Mel Gibson a draft dodger. His father moved their family to Australia when he was still a teenager to keep his sons out of Vietnam...that's hardly Mel's fault.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 4:47:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 4:48:08 AM EDT by Submariner]

Originally Posted By toast:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Still can't figure out what "aim small, miss small" means



If you aim at a man and miss a little you miss the man. If you aim at a button on his shirt and miss a little you still hit him in the chest. Thus aim at a small object and miss a small amount. Got it???



Should Mel have had an Aimpoint (2 MOA dot) or an Eothingy (1 MOA dot) on his musket?
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 4:47:32 AM EDT
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