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Posted: 10/7/2004 2:35:41 PM EST


Sure, it deployed near the end of the war and many of the best German pilots were used up (ie, dead), but fighter-for-fighter, was it better than the Mustang, Spitfire, etc?
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 2:37:09 PM EST
Nope, the engines had to be rebuilt basicly after every flight.


It was a nifty concept toy
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 2:37:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 2:37:34 PM EST by paenutz]
They bombed the pic right off the screen

Red X syndrome...
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 2:37:14 PM EST
What, the big X-Plane?
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 2:37:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 2:38:22 PM EST
wheres the Ray Charles pic?
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 2:39:00 PM EST
The P-51's shot several of these down, with no loses in return. The Me-262 was better as a bomber-killer than a fighter.

But right now it is the dreaded red X fighter. It could shoot down anything, including any fighter today!
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 2:42:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 2:47:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 2:48:27 PM EST by paenutz]

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
Red X means you're using Internet Destroyer.

Get a REAL browser and you'll be able to see a lot of images that IE doesn't show!

All I had to do (via Netscape) to see that pic was to right click on it and hit 'view image' once, and now
I can see it in its normal spot in the thread.

The 262 was fast and that's about it. Its only chance was to use hit and run tactics. If it had EVER slowed down to engage ANY fighter we were using at the end of WWII in a real dogfight, rather than a "zoom and boom" attack, it would have been eaten alive.

CJ




Screw you and the horse you rode in on... I run Fire Fox not IE. I just dont like right clicking.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 2:50:38 PM EST
It shows up fine for me.

The P51 was an all around better fighter. The 262 filled a niche as a nice bomber attack craft.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 2:57:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By AZ_Hi_Desert:
The P-51's shot several of these down, with no loses in return. The Me-262 was better as a bomber-killer than a fighter.


I believe the Germans used kids basically to pilot them...and they made more than they were able to get off the ground. Kind of hard to fly when you don't have fuel. LOL.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:03:05 PM EST
If the Germans had the parts, planes and time to develop and perfect tactics, the Me 262 would have written a new chapter in aviation history. Instead, that chapter was written during the Korean War.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:05:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:

The 262 was fast and that's about it. Its only chance was to use hit and run tactics. If it had EVER slowed down to engage ANY fighter we were using at the end of WWII in a real dogfight, rather than a "zoom and boom" attack, it would have been eaten alive.

CJ



In a defensive role, boom and zoom was the way to fly it--like the P-38 in the early days of the Pacific. A pilot flying the 262 from late '44 on wouldn't want to, or need to, slow down....except to land of course The ability to avoid combat with other fighters was the 262's forte.

The 262 was almost unengagable by allied fighters when the 262 was used in the bomber destroyer role. It was not a good dogfighter, but dogfighting was the last thing the pilot wanted to do. Dogfighting was desirable only when destroying fighters was the mission, or when the situation demanded or permitted it. The Germans could ill afford dogfights when the 262 appeared. The Germans needed ground support and bomber interception aircraft and the 262 was the perfect bomber intereptor of the day.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:11:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 3:35:34 PM EST by vito113]

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
Originally Posted By AZ_Hi_Desert:
The P-51's shot several of these down, with no loses in return. The Me-262 was better as a bomber-killer than a fighter.


I believe the Germans used kids basically to pilot them..



Not so, that was a loony tunes plan for the Volksjeager fighter.

Adolph Galland and the top German Aces flew the 262 towards the end of the war in a special group called JV44… made no difference… many were shot down.




Much revisonist rubbish is talked about how the 262 could have won the war… BS… Even if each 262 had shot down 100 allied planes it would hardly have made a dent, and the first Lockheed P80 Shooting Stars was already entering service in Italy by the end of the war and thousands more were on the way… the P80 was a much better all round fighter than the 262…

The P80 was flown againt the ME262 at Wright field after the war. The ME262 was slightly faster in a dive than the P80, but the P80 was found to be superior in all aspects, especially manoeverabilty, to the ME262




Andy
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:11:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 3:17:12 PM EST by Jeepster]

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
The 262 was fast and that's about it.
CJ



Also the most heavily armed fighter of its day. 4 30mm automatic cannons. Only needed a second or two burst to destroy anything, even a B17. With enough chromium and nickle to build proper turbine blades, might have changed the course of the war.

I read one of the RAF test pilots felt that, with the engines from the Meteor, it would have given the F86 Sabre a hard time.

Also a very beautiful airplane, especially in the Luftwaffe Late War Camo.

ETA - Another badass fighter from WWII was the F7F Tigercat. 4 20mm cannons 4 .50 cal M2s, 2 of the engines used in the Corsair. Wish I could post pics - THAT was a fantastic looking plane. Boring paint scheme, though.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:17:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:20:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 3:21:14 PM EST by vito113]
Chuck Yeager nailed two… and plenty were shot down in air to air combat as well when the pilots tried to tangle with the fighters escorting the bombers…

Andy
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:21:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jeepster:

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
The 262 was fast and that's about it.
CJ



it would have given the F86 Sabre a hard time.






::COUGH COUGH:: BULLHIT::COUGH::



The F86 had a much better targeting system for the guns and the F86 could go supersonic
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:24:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
Red X means you're using Internet Destroyer.

Get a REAL browser and you'll be able to see a lot of images that IE doesn't show!

All I had to do (via Netscape) to see that pic was to right click on it and hit 'view image' once, and now
I can see it in its normal spot in the thread.

The 262 was fast and that's about it. Its only chance was to use hit and run tactics. If it had EVER slowed down to engage ANY fighter we were using at the end of WWII in a real dogfight, rather than a "zoom and boom" attack, it would have been eaten alive.

CJ



Why do we have to do that, anyway?
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:26:10 PM EST
You're all wrong, This was the most badass fighter from WWII.

Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:27:37 PM EST
The F-80 or the F-86 would have flown circles around that thing, and both could have eaten them alive.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:28:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By MoparMike:
What, the big X-Plane?



+1!!



Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:29:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By Stillie:
You're all wrong, This was the most badass fighter from WWII.

8thmp.korea.army.mil/audiemurphy1.jpg



Heh-heh..... Good one!
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:30:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 3:42:20 PM EST by vito113]

Originally Posted By Blackjack272:
The F-80 or the F-86 would have flown circles around that thing, and both could have eaten them alive.



Correct!

The P80 was flown againt the ME262 at Wright field after the war. The ME262 was slightly faster in a dive than the P80, but the P80 was found to be superior in all aspects, especially manoeverabilty, to the ME262

And as the first P80's had entered front line service in Italy before the end of the war in Europe, I therefore I vote the P80 as the best fighter of WWII!

Andy
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:34:44 PM EST
I would guess the P-38 Lightening was the "most badass fighter from WWII".
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:35:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
the metalurgy was not up to snuff with the turbine engines the germans developed.

a fast throttle up or down could cause the engine to grenade.



That was they EXACT reason why they never met the P-80.

WE were having compressor failures with the early jets supplied for them, so we refused to let them fly, even when Me262's were out. The Me262's didn't cause enough havoc to press the issue.

They also had fuel starvation issues on takeoff and landing causing flameouts. Dick Bong died in 1945 flying one when that happened, trying to takeoff from Lockheed Burbank.

The Vampire shared the same basic engine as the Shooting Star, and was also delayed.
Mk I and Mk II Meteors were considered too slow to engage the 262- and possibly vulnerable to the FW-190 Longnose.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:36:10 PM EST
me-262 was faster than anything in the air, that's it. the cannons it carried weren't suited for air-to-air combat against other fighters. couldn't turn fast. very vulnerable at take-off. shooting star never saw combat in wwii. the allieds had a jet fighter that saw action, the british meteor. as i'm sure vito can attest, it was a piece of shit, but it could keep up with v1s.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:40:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
Red X means you're using Internet Destroyer.

Get a REAL browser and you'll be able to see a lot of images that IE doesn't show!

All I had to do (via Netscape) to see that pic was to right click on it and hit 'view image' once, and now
I can see it in its normal spot in the thread.

The 262 was fast and that's about it. Its only chance was to use hit and run tactics. If it had EVER slowed down to engage ANY fighter we were using at the end of WWII in a real dogfight, rather than a "zoom and boom" attack, it would have been eaten alive.

CJ



I see it in "Internet Destroyer." How about that !
Why would I want two browsers ?
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:43:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 4:28:01 PM EST by nbjly]
Best fighter - all depends on the role. But the best all around fighter that saw action in WWII - F6F Hellcat, the near perfect blend of Thunderbolt and Corsair. The Hellcat was credited with over three-quarters of the US Navy's air-to-air kills in the war. Me 262 not even close.

IMHO
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:47:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 3:47:53 PM EST by brianksain]
I was thinking the same thing Stillie my nizzle ... www.adoptasniper.org
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:52:25 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:53:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:

Originally Posted By Jeepster:

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
The 262 was fast and that's about it.
CJ



it would have given the F86 Sabre a hard time.






::COUGH COUGH:: BULLHIT::COUGH::



The F86 had a much better targeting system for the guns and the F86 could go supersonic



Ah, no it couldn't (go supersonic). Much of the design data for the Saber's wing was gleaned from ........The 262. It was THE premier fighter of WWII. However, wars don't hinge on small numbers of technologically advanced but poorly piloted planes. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 3:56:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By Blackjack272:
The F-80 or the F-86 would have flown circles around that thing, and both could have eaten them alive.



Actually, it has been speculated that re-engined with post war powerplants it would have outperformed the F-86 Saber. It is nice to grunt about but the Germans had our ASSES whipped in the Aerospace department. Nearly all post war weapons projects began with reverse engineering of German planes, rockets, processes. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 4:05:25 PM EST
They were built using slave labor and flown by the bottom of the barrel of German fighters.

Had Hitler developed it earlier in the war and had Hitler made it into a fighter instead of a bomber and had the LW developed tactics for it.....
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 4:12:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 4:15:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sierra_Hombre:
me-262 was faster than anything in the air, that's it. the cannons it carried weren't suited for air-to-air combat against other fighters. couldn't turn fast. very vulnerable at take-off. shooting star never saw combat in wwii. the allieds had a jet fighter that saw action, the british meteor. as i'm sure vito can attest, it was a piece of shit, but it could keep up with v1s.



Although the P80 never saw full scale combat, two they did fly a small number of missions to try and nail some german Arado Jet bombers that were making a pain of themselves over Italy, the war ended before they could make a sucessful intercept.

The Meteor Mk I&II were indeed dogs… very slow, barely 415MPH with a following wind… flying turds!

The significantly faster (IIRC @520mph), and much improved Meteor MkIII entered front line service in January 1945, but the pilots were specifically ordered not to cross into German airspace in case they were shot down and the engine technology in their new Rolls Royce Derwent turbojets fell into german hands… this pissed the pilots off who were very keen to go up against the 262's in their new jets that now had similar performance.



Interestingly, the Mk 3's were painted all white to stop their own side trying to shoot them down as everyone assumed a jet was german.

Andy
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 4:31:02 PM EST
Actually, (at the risk of being fussy with terms) I’d think the Me-262 was really more of an interceptor than a true fighter.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 4:34:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By Planerench:

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:
Originally Posted By Jeepster:
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
The 262 was fast and that's about it.
CJ



Ah, no it couldn't (go supersonic). Much of the design data for the Saber's wing was gleaned from ........The 262. It was THE premier fighter of WWII. However, wars don't hinge on small numbers of technologically advanced but poorly piloted planes. Planerench out.



No 'stricly' speaking correct. The sweep back on the 262's wing was due to the very heavy engines, Willy Messerschmitt swept back the wings to balance them. It was a fortuitous accident that he then discovered it improved the aerodynamics significantly.

IIRC, the real basis of the F-86 was the ME 1101 which the US captured and shipped back to the States. This was the plane in which Messserscmitt fully developed the swept wing concept and did much advanced and groundbreaking research into sweep angles and such. This plane was 'copied' as the Bell X-5 and produced much very valuable data on swept wings. IIRC the original design for the Sabre was a straight wing (aka USN "fury') but was hastilly redesigned in the light of the breakthrough research in swept wing designs captured in Germany at the end of WWII.



Me P1101 Fighter



Bell X-5 research aircraft

Andy
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 4:45:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By BB:
I would guess the P-38 Lightening was the "most badass fighter from WWII".
www.visitusa.com/planes/p38.jpg



God, I wanted so dearly for the F-22 to be named Lightning II, but I must admit: Raptor fits the F/A-22 very well as it is indead a predator-bird.

I suspect the latter P-38s were more capable than the credits it has ever been given, but I've yet to find the data that would confirm it. The data I have found makes the P-38L to me a super-bird, but the data was compiled by Lockheed. I want independant data.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 4:55:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By obershutze916:

Originally Posted By KA3B:
They were built using slave labor and flown by the bottom of the barrel of German fighters.

Had Hitler developed it earlier in the war and had Hitler made it into a fighter instead of a bomber and had the LW developed tactics for it.....





The aircraft was develped earlier in the war, the Luftwaffe had tactics for it, and check out this guy. Still a a National hero back home.

www.luftwaffe-experten.com/pilots_day/W_Nowotny.html

Please do your homework first.



Thank God somebody finally said it. There was a lot more to the German Jet program than I care to go into, so please do you homework.

Link Posted: 10/7/2004 5:10:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By Belfry_Express:

Originally Posted By Jeepster:

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
The 262 was fast and that's about it.
CJ



it would have given the F86 Sabre a hard time.






::COUGH COUGH:: BULLHIT::COUGH::



The F86 had a much better targeting system for the guns and the F86 could go supersonic



If you reread the comment, I didn't say "superior". A 262 with proper engines would have been an interesting match for a Sabre - more heavily armed and the security of two engines vs. manoverability and better sights for a lighter armament. Similar to the comparison of the Zero to the Lightning - each capable of beating the other if one pilot should miscalculate.
Funny thing about that comparison is I recall reading that during the India-Pakistan War of the early 70s, Pakistani pilots recorded some victories over Mirages in Sabres (cannon armed versions). So the previous generation equipment isn't necessarily a walkover.
Also read about a Super Skyhawk being made for Indonesia (or Malaysia?). A4 Skyhawk with the same engine as the F18. The development pilot said that it is a VERY formidable aircraft air-to-air.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 5:24:17 PM EST
We are fortunate that the ME-262 was fucked over by Hitler. If Adolf Galland had his way, Bf-109 production would have been completely halted in late 42 / early 43 and the ME-262 would have been built BALLS TO THE WALLS. This would have been extremely bad news, in late 42 / early 43 the Luftwaffe was still extremely strong and most of its ace pilots were still alive. The USAAF pilots were pretty green at this time and they did not break the back of the Luftwaffe by shear numbers until 44. By the time the ME-262 really came online as a fighter, the Luftwaffe was in shambles and most of its experienced pilots dead.

ME-262 usually didn't tackle fighters because they were under explicit orders to down bombers, one just needs to look at its cannon to see the ME-262's role as an Interceptor. It was armed with 4 Mk108 30mm cannon(Heinz Bar flew one with 6 cannon), it could almost be classified as a grenade launcher since it had an extremely low muzzle velocity and the cannon projectile contained just as much explosive as a hand grenade. 3 rounds in a B-17 was all that was needed to rip it to shreds. One projectile could disintergrate a P-51 or P-47!!! The ME-262 was also loaded out with 24 55-mm R4/M rockets, which were incredibly devastating to bombers and also forced the bomber boxes to break up which made them sitting ducks. The ME-262's weak point was its Jumo engines, the Germans didn't have the metal Cobalt to use in the engine so they had to use steel which didn't last long in the high heat, service life between overhaul was like 11 hours.

Johannes "Macky" Steinhoff wanted to use the ME-262 against the fighters and let the FW-190's and Bf-109's tackle the bombers. The Jets would have completely forced the fighters to try to engage them and in turn making them eat up their fuel since they would have to fly their fighters at full power or become complete sitting ducks in the air. This would leave the bombers to the propeller driven fighters unescorted. The ME-262 would have been better off ditching the Mk108 cannons for MG 151 20mm cannons for a fighter role.

As far as the P-80, it too had shitty engines, they had flameout problems. The US ace of aces Richard Bong was killed when his P-80 flamed out on takeoff and didn't have enough altitude when he bailed out. He died ironically on Aug 6, the day of the Hiroshima bombing.

Lets be glad the war ended when it did, too many good people would have died had it continued in Europe.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 5:26:27 PM EST
I heard what the allied Mustang drivers would do was sneak in around airfields and wait for 262s to come back in. They had to slow way down and go very easy, so they were easy pickings.

I'd agree, the way they were armed, they were meant to be interceptors. Swoop in and nail the crap out of some bombers and swoop out faster than the escort fighters could cope with. Good in idea.

The Germans had some badass projects... including a flying wing bomber that would have been able to reach NYC and probably DC. If only Hitler hadn't jumped into aggressions in such a great number of fronts, the war may have gone differently.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 5:26:43 PM EST
Always loved the Corsair.

Link Posted: 10/7/2004 5:34:17 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 5:49:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
I heard what the allied Mustang drivers would do was sneak in around airfields and wait for 262s to come back in. They had to slow way down and go very easy, so they were easy pickings.

I'd agree, the way they were armed, they were meant to be interceptors. Swoop in and nail the crap out of some bombers and swoop out faster than the escort fighters could cope with. Good in idea.

The Germans had some badass projects... including a flying wing bomber that would have been able to reach NYC and probably DC. If only Hitler hadn't jumped into aggressions in such a great number of fronts, the war may have gone differently.



The Mustangs could one really pick on them when they took off /landing or tried to dive from above. Other than that, Allied Fighters were at an extreme disadvantage as "Speed is Life" and the ME-262 was 150 mph faster than the Mustang. The Luftwaffe Experten pilots were EXPERTS at boom and zoom , the jet enabled the Luftwaffe pilots really be able to fight in the vertical.

I have read about Adolf Galland and a few other 100+ kill Experten testing tactics with the ME-262 against P-51's and P-47's, the results were devastating to the allied aircraft. The Allied fighters couldn't touch them as long as they didn't try to dogfight and the ME-262's used the vertical with their superior speed (Boom & Zoom) also don't try to dive from a P-47. Also I have read many stories and listened to pilots like Chuck Yeager say, attempting to fight a ME-262 up at altitude was nearly impossible because they were so damn fast and if the ME-262 had a pro in the cockpit it could be a unpleasant day to be in a P-51.

Yeager pounced his two ME-262's while they were landing BTW, he has stated that was the only reason he was able to shoot them down as they flew too damn fast.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 5:53:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
It is true that we can be thankful that Hitler was in charge, and was rather stupid about some things.

But what can you expect? His military experience ended when he was a CORPORAL!

If the plots to assassinate Hitler had succeeded, someone COMPETENT might have taken over, and that would have spelled bad news for the Allies.

I think we would have won eventually in any event, but it could have gotten much worse.

CJ



I am in complete agreement! Gen Adolf Galland stated that Germany would only have delayed the war another year or two had the ME-262 gone into full production like he wanted. Also the Russians would have been able to gobble up more of Europe in the process. He was also glad it ended when it did as too many good men had been killed on both sides due to that Austrian Idiot.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 5:59:52 PM EST


This has always been my fav of WWII.. I grew up with my nose buried in the book "1000 Destroyed".

This particular plane was flown by Don Gentile.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 6:03:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Always loved the Corsair.

alisulbasento.altervista.org/img/F4U5.jpg



A big Hose-Nose +1



SG
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 6:08:04 PM EST
You know I asked an WWII air force pilot that question once and he told me simply: "Whatever plane got you home"
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 6:19:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By Planerench:

Actually, it has been speculated



Yes, and it's been speculated that Kerry will be our next President.
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