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Posted: 10/23/2004 11:31:57 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:32:59 AM EST
I don't think anyone expected it.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:35:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:
I don't think anyone expected it.






NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISTION!!!!!
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:38:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:41:56 AM EST
Wow... all of the torture devices that were developed and used during that time period must have just been for shits and giggles then
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:51:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 11:51:26 AM EST by Paul]
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:59:39 AM EST
What a show..
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 12:03:47 PM EST
Here we go
we have a mision to convert the jews
we're going to teach them wrong from right
we're going to help them see the light
and make an offer that they can't refuse

that the jews just cant refuse

confess, don't be boring
say yes, don't be dull
the fact you're ignoring
it's better to lose you're skull cap than your soul...
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 12:13:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 12:15:50 PM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 12:24:29 PM EST
Glad to see Bellisaries is getting work again.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 12:26:18 PM EST
and now for something completely different.....

<­BR>

The Larch.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 12:32:26 PM EST
http://hometown.aol.com/philvaz/articles/num25.htm

It's my understanding a lot of the deaths were related to civic punishments, IOW the government got involved in witchcraft punishing, a different proposition than the Inquisition.

Link Posted: 10/23/2004 12:46:20 PM EST
But, but, that's impossible! Everyone knows that Christianity is just as evil as Islam. We know this because of all the commands in the Bible to execute or convert all non-Christians.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 12:55:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 12:55:40 PM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 12:55:44 PM EST
3-5 k is all?
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 1:00:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 1:01:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 1:01:37 PM EST
Eric, while I'd be the first to say that much of the conventional wisdom related to the Spanish Inqusition is a result of anti-Catholic sentiment over the years, that article did cause me to think some things were being overlooked.

From folks I have talked to who have studied the era, Rome was very displeased with some of the activities in Spain - and had quite a time trying to reign them in.

It also does not talk about the many rules in place in civil society that caused people to pretend to be Christian. While the Inquisition itself may not have discriminated or cared if you were Jewish or Muslim, the society at large did - thus leading people to fake conversion and fall under the jurisdiction of the Inquisition. The way the author presents that subject is very deceptive, IMHO.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 1:01:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 1:04:17 PM EST by luger355]


NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 1:26:48 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 1:26:56 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 1:30:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 1:34:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 1:38:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
Eric, while I'd be the first to say that much of the conventional wisdom related to the Spanish Inquisition is a result of anti-Catholic sentiment over the years, that article did cause me to think some things were being overlooked.


Such as?

From folks I have talked to who have studied the era, Rome was very displeased with some of the activities in Spain - and had quite a time trying to reign them in.

And....????

It also does not talk about the many rules in place in civil society that caused people to pretend to be Christian.

Sort of like the law in effect at the time that Massachusetts ratified the US Constitution that made it a felony NOT to attend church on Sundays?

Where are you going with this?

While the Inquisition itself may not have discriminated or cared if you were Jewish or Muslim, the society at large did - thus leading people to fake conversion and fall under the jurisdiction of the Inquisition.

As the article states, and careful research shows, you could simply say that you were NOT a Christian and the Inquisition had no authority over you.

What the secular authorities in Spain, or the population of Spain thought about that decision is not germane to any discussion about the Spanish Inquisition.

If you'd like to start a discussion generally on man's inhumanity to man, be my guest!

The way the author presents that subject is very deceptive, IMHO.

How so?

The subject was the myth of the Spanish Inquisition.

Not the good civil manners of the ordinary people of Spain from the Fifteenth to Seventeenth Centuries.

Eric The(StayingOnTrack)Hun



You inserted questions in there that I believe I answered in the rest of the post.

When the casual ignorant reader reads that "all" you had to say is you were not Christian, it is CRITICAL to understand the context of WHY people wouls say they were Christian when they were not - absolutely CRITICAL. While it is not the inquisitions "fault," it none the less affected the perception of the Inquisition and the realities of life under it.

Jews, for example, could live as Christians and practice Judaism in secret - thus allowing them to have property rights, etc. - but this would then make them subject to the Inquisition.

Also, it is very significant that the Chirch authorities in Rome had issues with the Spanish Inquisition - since those issues do not seem to be addressed by the author you posted - who presents it as completely above board.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 1:40:08 PM EST
Compared to the millions (100+) killed between 1917 and 1980 for not being "true believers" in Communism, that's not a whole lot, is it?
In fact, Chritianity hasn't done too badly overall compared to the deaths imposed by all belief systems.

Larry
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:02:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:04:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Glad to see Bellisaries is getting work again.


You must be referring to Michael A. Bellesiles, the author of Arming America: The Originas of a National Gun Culture, whose research proved to be not only erroneous, but downright deceitful?

Nope. He had nothing to do with either the Cornell Review's article or the BBC's documentary.

So, what, other than Monty Python's Flying Circus, upon what do you base your opinion of the Spanish Inquisition's methods?

The Illustrated Comics' Man of La Mancha?

C'mon be specific.

There is NO difference whatsoever, it appears, between what liberal professors have taught us for years about the 'depth of depravity' of the Spanish Inquisition's crusade, and what those same liberal professors would say about America's involvement in the War on Terror taking place today.

Figure out whose side you are on and go with it!

Eric The(Chuckling)Hun



The article is pretty fair and factual. We have good numbers on the number of persons prosecuted under the Spanish Inquisition because we have their records. Does this make the Spanish Inquisition good or right… no but as the history of religious prosecution goes it is rates light in weight?

The simple fact the Spanish Inquisition is remembered much worse that it was because the histories studied in most of the West were written by the English. The English hated the Spanish.

When compared to the religious persecution and mass murder that occurred in Britain after Henry VIII broke from the Catholic Church and for the next 200 years the Spanish Inquisition looks small in scale. Tens and Tens of thousands of Catholics were murdered by the new English church not including Ireland, religious persecution of the Puritans ect. When it comes to state sanctioned religious persecution and mass murder England has no equal.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:08:38 PM EST
Tie her...to the RACK!!! *dramatic music*
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:10:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 2:12:50 PM EST by CAMPYBOB]
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:14:30 PM EST
I was under the impression it was something that happens regularly in history and sure to happen in the future when ignorant people come to power and manipulate the other ignorant people in a society.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:18:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
In fact, Chritianity hasn't done too badly overall compared to the deaths imposed by all belief systems.

i wonder how millions of american indians would answer that question? were they not slaughtered by those that called themselves christians?

how about the millions of mayans, toltecs, aztecs and other idians of central and south america that were killed and enslaved by catholic conquistadors?

i'll also wager that most of the guards at bergen-belsen went to church on sunday.

look harder. you will find that not all the onward christian soldiers were as christ-like as some would have us believe.

Compared to the millions (100+) killed between 1917 and 1980 for not being "true believers" in Communism, that's not a whole lot, is it?

moral relatavism?




No, it's not moral relativism. The Christian faith does not teach to kill because they are unbelievers, and you carefully changed that to "killed by those calling themselves Christian". You can't change the topic in the middle of a debate, my friend. Killed by elievers is not the same as killed for your belief. There wasn't a single amerind killed for refusing Christianity.
The Communists killed because people didn't believe; and Communism is indeed a religion.

You won't find me a Catholic appologist either; I am technically under a Papal ban calling for my death if Rome ever gains control of the USA. I also do not consider Roman Catholicism to be biblical Chritianity.

Larry
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:21:49 PM EST
Eric got it sort of right. But there are also a few misconceptions about it. In the 8th century Spain was ruled by "germanic" Barbarians called the west GOTHS. They were pagan and stupid and assholes altogether. Then Islam rose about the same time. These people were not TURKISH. They were Arabs, A combination of Middle eastern and Berber (atlas Moutains). They swept into Spain AND portugal and made it "submissive" to Allah! But that was'nt enough for the "Religion of peace ©", there is no cumpulsion in religion, types. They then planned to invade France. They did so, and met Germanic Barbarians called the Franks, at Tours in 786, 786 i think! Luckily for Western Europe They were defeated and driven back across the pyranees. So Spain which had a a majority Catholic poulation some Jews and Pagan Germans were all ruled by the Arab Elite. They basically set up a Apartheid system with Them on top (of course) and all those others segregated. They had to pay taxes for being Dhimmi, And were not permitted to hold good offices. Of course anyone who converted to Islam was immediatly risen up to "ruling class" status. Which is hard to Refuse. And also they brought in Missionaries to slowly but surely make Spain and portugal Islamic. Now to the good part, although this is true, Spain and portugal under Islam did better than most of Europe because at the time it was the "dark ages" and German and Viking invaders were laying waste to the rest of Europe. But the Muslims were making progress and there came to be a substantial Islamic population in Iberia (spain & portugal). But luckily the pope was behind the christians. With Italy and France they tried to smuggle in arms and destabilise the region I guess you could call it an insurgency?? Keep in mind that this was over a period of 700 years!! Now northern Spain is mountain and hard to control (tribal Lands??) so it was here that the first rebellions formed. Once all of Europe became christian (the Germans and vikings too) they turned their attention to "reconquista", Reconquering Spain for Christianity. Knights from all over Europe came to fight the "heretic" Muslims. For the Spanish the battle cry was "sangre pura", Pure blood. They wanted the Arabs OUT!! in fact the flag of spain dates to that time with a king who wearing a golden belt, to show his bravery in battle took two fingers dipped them in his own blood and smeared them onto it, look at Spains flag if you want. So long story short, 700 years after the arabs first crossed the straight into europe the last of them was driven out of Grenada in 1492. Note the year! And it became the Mission of Ferdinand and Isabel to "De-islamisize" Spain. Historians predict that at one time 20% of Iberia was Islamic. To do this they took two routes, Just like the Muslims before them. One was, GET OUT! the other was convertion to christianity. But the Spanish wanted to make sure the conversion was genuine. We all know how Indoctrinated Muslims are against Conversion to Christianity and Judaism, It even has passages in the Koran about how to debate Christians. So examinations were given quizing them on faith and such as well as drinking wine and eating pork!! HAHAHAHA! I would have loved that job! Here ya go Abdul, Have a nice budweiser and italian hero sandwich, Sucka!! <----Abdul <---me.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:35:45 PM EST
PS- I noted Camps reply, Yes it is true that many Jews were killed or driven out. Reason? You might not want to here this but......#1 The Spanish were very "whipped up" about Non-Christians living in Spain after 700 of Islamic oppression. Just like how the foundation of Isreal caused Muslims in other countries to "beat up on" Local jews in retaliation for Isreali victory's. #2 This could be disputed as being Anti-semetic but.........Jews did not like the "goths" and actually helped the arabs conquer them. And becuase Jews were not worried about Conversion losses (they are pretty stubborn ya know) they "sucked up" to the ruling class of Arabs. So when the Arabs were defeated the Christians had a "long" memory of who helped the arabs and who did'nt. But the kings of Spain and portugal tried their hardest to protect them. But to no avail. Eventually most Jews left Spain by 1550. As to protestants, Well they didnt show up in Spain until the mid 1500's and the Muslims were long gone. But very few of them were persecuted because like in Italy the movment nver became big at all. No communities, or strongholds etc. I belive this to be because Catholicism was what kept the people united and hopeful and to turn their back on the church and the pope now would be very hard after they thought God had given them back their country.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:38:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:42:14 PM EST
The Inquisition (Let's begin)
The Inquisition (Look out sin)
We have a mission to convert the Jews (Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew)
We're gonna teach them wrong from right.
We're gonna help them see the light
and make an offer that they can't refuse. (That those Jews just can't refuse)
Confess, don't be boring.
Say yes, don't be dull.
A fact you're ignoring:
It's better to lose your skull cap than your skull (or your govalt!)
The Inquisition (what a show)
The Inquistion (here we go)
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away.
But the Inquisition's here and it's here to stay!

"I was sitting in a temple. I was minding my own business.
I was listening to a lovely Hebrew mass.
Then these Papus persons plungered and they throw me in a dungeon and they shove a red hot poker up my ass.
Is that considerate? Is that polite?
And not a tube of Preperation H in sight!"

"I'm sittin' flickin' chickens and I'm lookin' throught the pickins' and suddenly thes goyim pull down valls.
I didn't even know them and they grabbed my by the stoghum and started playing ping pong with my balls!
Ooh, the agony! Ooh, the shame!
To make my privates public for a game?"

The Inquisition (what a show)
The Inquisition (here we go)
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away.
But the Inquisition's here and it's here to-
"Hey Toquemada, walk this way."
"I just got back from the Auto-de-fe."
"Auto-de-fe? What's an Auto-de-fe?"
"It's what you oughtn't to do but you do anyway."
Will you convert? "No, no, no, no."
Will you confess? "No, no, no, no."
Will you revert? "No, no, no, no."
Will you say yes? "No, no, no, no!"

Now I asked in a nice way, I said, "Pretty please."
I bent their ears, now I'll work on their knees!
"Hey Toquemada, walk this way. We got a little game that you might wanna play, so pull that handle, try you're luck."
"Who knows, Toq, you might win a buck!"

"How we doin', any converts today?"
"Not a one, nay, nay, nay."
"We flattened their fingers, we branded their buns!
Nothing is working! Send in the nuns!"

The Inquisition, what a show.
The Inquisition, here we go.
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away!
So all you Muslims and you Jews
We got big news for all of yous:
You'd better change your point of views TODAY!
'Cause the Inquisition's here and it's here to stay!
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:42:27 PM EST
To think of all the folks put to "THE COMFY CHAIR!!!"


Hey Torquemada, whaddaya say?
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:42:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:45:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
the point is that christians killed millions of non-christians.

do terms like, heathens, savages, pagans, etc. carry relgious meaning? you bet they do.

The Christian faith does not teach to kill because they are unbelievers, and you carefully changed that to "killed by those calling themselves Christian".

ask those that were slaughtered at the hands of christians if they thought that religion had NOTHING to do with why they were killed. i submit that it DOES.

hell, the christians even turned on other 'christians' in salem, mass. not on a grand scale, but certainly exemplary of how a christian and his "thou shalt not kill" mentality can work.

Killed by elievers is not the same as killed for your belief. There wasn't a single amerind killed for refusing Christianity.

uh....go lookup the salem witch trials, sir. i think you will also find an interesting history of how the american indians were treated in the ohio river valley. some converted...some did not. the results for those did not were very ugly and shameful.

The Communists killed because people didn't believe; and Communism is indeed a religion.

no. communism is an economic system. you are confusing the cult of personality, totalitarianism and fascism with communism, also. i will agree with you that self-proclaimed communists (probably better described as marxists, lenists, trotskyites, stalinists, etc.) killed millions. EVERYONE comes away from this thing called history with blood on their hands.

to get back to the point of the post, though, the catholic christians thru the well documented acts of the spanish inquisition were definitely guilty of numerous and heinous crimes.

You won't find me a Catholic appologist either; I am technically under a Papal ban calling for my death if Rome ever gains control of the USA.

cool! may i ask what you did to piss of the pope so badly?

I also do not consider Roman Catholicism to be biblical Chritianity.

i'm not going down that road...paging sgtar...paging mr. sgtar!





No, Mr. CampyBob, you continue to change the terms of the debate in every case. You can't do that and have a rational discourse. The article cited repeatedly stated that this referred only to the official Inquisition, and that there were vast differences between this and the SECULAR issues happening concurrently.

Salem, MA was never about heresy or belief, but specific behavior. The witness were perjurers, it had nothing to do with what you imply id does, ie persecution for individual beliefes, nothing at all.
All same same your other examples; you continue to insert bad behavior by religionists, and blame it on the religion.

Classic Marxism is indeed a religion. Leninism was as well.

And I have no intention of debating Catholicism with anyone; I don't have the time or interest.

Larry
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 2:54:35 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 3:03:47 PM EST
Nobody expects the Spansih Inquisition!

<­BR>



And now for something completely different....
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 3:20:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 3:21:07 PM EST by CAMPYBOB]
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 3:22:24 PM EST
You could probably ask Ed Sr. I believe he was alive back then.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 3:26:03 PM EST
"Torquemada. Do not look to him for mercy.

Torquemada. Do not look to him for goodness.

Torquemada. Let's face it, you can't talk 'im outta anything....."

Link Posted: 10/23/2004 3:49:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 3:50:19 PM EST by DigDug]
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 3:53:14 PM EST
The inquisition itself must be combined with the convert, exile or die that preceeded it. The inquisition itself was an attempt to root out the rest of those filthy jews and muslims who may have converted so they wouldn't have to leave their homes.
What happened to those filthy jews (et al) who refused to convert when the edicts were originally published.
What is more evil? To kill and torture a person or to make that person give up their God under penalty of exile or death?
As a Christian, would you rather die or give up Christ?
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 3:55:06 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 4:01:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 4:03:26 PM EST by bblake00]
Phil_A_Steen beet me to it . But still a funny.


The Inquisition (Let's begin)
The Inquisition (Look out sin)
We have a mission to convert the Jews (Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew)
We're gonna teach them wrong from right.
We're gonna help them see the light
and make an offer that they can't refuse. (That those Jews just can't refuse)
Confess, don't be boring.
Say yes, don't be dull.
A fact you're ignoring:
It's better to lose your skull cap than your skull (or your govalt!)
The Inquisition (what a show)
The Inquistion (here we go)
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away.
But the Inquisition's here and it's here to stay!

"I was sitting in a temple. I was minding my own business.
I was listening to a lovely Hebrew mass.
Then these Papus persons plungered and they throw me in a dungeon and they shove a red hot poker up my ass.
Is that considerate? Is that polite?
And not a tube of Preperation H in sight!"

"I'm sittin' flickin' chickens and I'm lookin' throught the pickins' and suddenly thes goyim pull down valls.
I didn't even know them and they grabbed my by the stoghum and started playing ping pong with my balls!
Ooh, the agony! Ooh, the shame!
To make my privates public for a game?"

The Inquisition (what a show)
The Inquisition (here we go)
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away.
But the Inquisition's here and it's here to-
"Hey Toquemada, walk this way."
"I just got back from the Auto-de-fe."
"Auto-de-fe? What's an Auto-de-fe?"
"It's what you oughtn't to do but you do anyway."
Will you convert? "No, no, no, no."
Will you confess? "No, no, no, no."
Will you revert? "No, no, no, no."
Will you say yes? "No, no, no, no!"
Now I asked in a nice way, I said, "Pretty please."
I bent their ears, now I'll work on their knees!
"Hey Toquemada, walk this way. We got a little game that you might wanna play, so pull that handle, try you're luck."
"Who knows, Toq, you might win a buck!"

"How we doin', any converts today?"
"Not a one, nay, nay, nay."
"We flattened their fingers, we branded their buns!
Nothing is working! Send in the nuns!"

The Inquisition, what a show.
The Inquisition, here we go.
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away!
So all you Muslims and you Jews
We got big news for all of yous:
You'd better change your point of views TODAY!
'Cause the Inquisition's here and it's here to stay!
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 4:01:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ohio:

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
In fact, Chritianity hasn't done too badly overall compared to the deaths imposed by all belief systems.

i wonder how millions of american indians would answer that question? were they not slaughtered by those that called themselves christians?

how about the millions of mayans, toltecs, aztecs and other idians of central and south america that were killed and enslaved by catholic conquistadors?

i'll also wager that most of the guards at bergen-belsen went to church on sunday.

look harder. you will find that not all the onward christian soldiers were as christ-like as some would have us believe.

Compared to the millions (100+) killed between 1917 and 1980 for not being "true believers" in Communism, that's not a whole lot, is it?

moral relatavism?




No, it's not moral relativism. The Christian faith does not teach to kill because they are unbelievers, and you carefully changed that to "killed by those calling themselves Christian". You can't change the topic in the middle of a debate, my friend. Killed by elievers is not the same as killed for your belief. There wasn't a single amerind killed for refusing Christianity.
The Communists killed because people didn't believe; and Communism is indeed a religion.

You won't find me a Catholic appologist either; I am technically under a Papal ban calling for my death if Rome ever gains control of the USA. I also do not consider Roman Catholicism to be biblical Chritianity.

Larry



You were making sense until the last paragraph, I will leave this thread now Mr. Rushdie wannabe.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 4:06:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ohio:

You won't find me a Catholic appologist either; I am technically under a Papal ban calling for my death if Rome ever gains control of the USA. I also do not consider Roman Catholicism to be biblical Chritianity.

Larry



You've been reading too many Jack Chick anti-Catholic tracts.

Link Posted: 10/23/2004 4:11:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jeepster:

Originally Posted By Ohio:

You won't find me a Catholic appologist either; I am technically under a Papal ban calling for my death if Rome ever gains control of the USA. I also do not consider Roman Catholicism to be biblical Chritianity.

Larry



You've been reading too many Jack Chick anti-Catholic tracts.




I can't help it if you and Nightwatchman are ignorant. If you aren't the same person, that is.
Ask your priest if the anathema from Trent or the sentence against apostates pronounced at Trent have been revoked.

Larry
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 4:30:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 4:31:15 PM EST by Adam_White]

Originally Posted By Ohio:

Originally Posted By Jeepster:

Originally Posted By Ohio:

You won't find me a Catholic appologist either; I am technically under a Papal ban calling for my death if Rome ever gains control of the USA. I also do not consider Roman Catholicism to be biblical Chritianity.

Larry



You've been reading too many Jack Chick anti-Catholic tracts.




I can't help it if you and Nightwatchman are ignorant. If you aren't the same person, that is.
Ask your priest if the anathema from Trent or the sentence against apostates pronounced at Trent have been revoked.

Larry



Most were revoked two year slater by Pius IV. Care to be more specific?

The only death penalty I have ever heard of in relation to apostasy was for people who induced others away from the Church. Simply leaving the Church or deciding you did not believe ha salmost always led to mere excommunication - kinda like the Church saying, "you can't quite, your fired."
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