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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/21/2005 9:11:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 9:12:00 AM EDT by sgtar15]
So I was talking to my neighbor today. And the topic of the old testament and animal sacrifice came up. She mentioned how since Jesus was the Lamb of God and bleed on the cross that it was that action that fullfilled the blood sacrifices of the O.T., and is why sacrifice is not required anymore, because Jesus Himself was the sacrific.


Your thoughts?

Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 9:51:21 AM EDT
When you "sacrifice" something(or someone in Jesus's case) you give it up forever. In Jesus's case, according to the bible, he came back from the dead so where is the sacrifice in that. It would have been one thing for god to give up his son forever but to have him come back to life is like not having him die at all. If I had a son and gave him up to "save" mankind, never to see him again then I'd have sacrificed something but if I brought him back to life then what have I lost, Nothing, that's what. This is just another point where Christianity doesn't make sense.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 10:20:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
This is just another point where Christianity doesn't make sense.



Well, rising from the dead shows that God has power of everything, including death.

Kind of stupid to have a belief in a God with limited pwers if you ask me.

Sgat1r5

PS But back on topic.....................
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 11:08:42 AM EDT
So why have him die in the first place. If God is so mighty just have him wave his hand and pardon everyone, no fuss, no muss, no jumpin' thru hoops.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 11:59:41 AM EDT
1) To full fill scripture.

2) For our sins

3) Attonment of original sin.


There may be more.......

Sgatr15
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 12:07:04 PM EDT
That's why He is called The Lamb of God. The only way God set for the atonement of sin was the blood sacrifice. Hebrews did it in the Old Testament. Christ took that place and the Temple was destroyed in 70AD so no more sacrifice. That's why it's said Christ died for our sins-He was the blood atonement.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 12:10:02 PM EDT
By the account given in the new testament, he was executed plain and simple.

As I have stated before lowly sheep and goats were offered in the Holy Temple by a Kohen on a Holy Altar in a strict detailed manner.

Jesus was whipped, beaten and made sport of then executed like a common criminal by ROMANS.

Maybe you should ask the Romans they "sacrificed" him.

As to why Jews do not offer up ANIMALS today is that we have no temple. We are commanded to bring our offerings to the place where our GOD shall cause his name to rest.

<­BR>



Link Posted: 8/21/2005 12:17:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:
By the account given in the new testament, he was executed plain and simple.

As I have stated before lowly sheep and goats were offered in the Holy Temple by a Kohen on a Holy Altar in a strict detailed manner.

Jesus was whipped, beaten and made sport of then executed like a common criminal by ROMANS.

Maybe you should ask the Romans they "sacrificed" him.

As to why Jews do not offer up ANIMALS today is that we have no temple. We are commanded to bring our offerings to the place where our GOD shall cause his name to rest.

You have no temple because Christ, your long awaited Messiah came and paid the price that your animal sacrifices represented. To perform animal sacrifices now would be idolatry. Suggest you read Isaiah chapter on our Suffering Savior. Fits Christ to a T. Then Matthew and Romans. Hebrews is to the point also.

<­BR>




Link Posted: 8/21/2005 12:21:03 PM EDT
I guess I just can't understand how you can sacrifice something but still have it. It seems like God is having his cake and eating it too by the rules he's playing by in the "Christian" game.
I'd much rather believe(and I do) that we're all bound for a good afterlife unless we, personally, do something bad in this life to merit punishment. Heathen way of looking at it: We're ok unless we mess it up. Christian way of looking at it: We're doomed unless we do something(believe in Christ, ect.) to fix it.
Heck, I'm sure there are a lot of Military widows that wouldn't mind thier sacrifice so much if they're husband came back home to them 3 days later. It's the fact that they gave their life and aren't coming home that makes the sacrifice valuable, isn't it? Heck, I'd die on a cross and come back 3 days later if it'd mean living forever, Jesus wouldn't have had to have done it for me. My "sin" my "payment", that'd be fine with me. That's why it all sounds a bit strange to me when you look at it from a rational point of view. And like I said, if God was so powerful then why didn't he just grant mankind a pardon, after all it was him putting the tree in the garden that tempted Adam and Eve in the first place, wasn't it? Seems like it was his fault that mankind fell from grace, not Adam's and Eve's.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 12:24:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 12:25:14 PM EDT by 0ldGuy]

Originally Posted By alaman:

You have no temple because Christ, your long awaited Messiah came and paid the price that your animal sacrifices represented. To perform animal sacrifices now would be idolatry. Suggest you read Isaiah chapter on our Suffering Savior. Fits Christ to a T. Then Matthew and Romans. Hebrews is to the point also.

That person may be YOUR long awaited Messiah but he means nothing to me. I suggest you read Isaiah again, the chapter you refer to is about Ezekiel.

<­BR>




Link Posted: 8/21/2005 12:28:35 PM EDT
NO
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 12:45:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 12:50:28 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
So I was talking to my neighbor today. And the topic of the old testament and animal sacrifice came up. She mentioned how since Jesus was the Lamb of God and bleed on the cross that it was that action that fullfilled the blood sacrifices of the O.T., and is why sacrifice is not required anymore, because Jesus Himself was the sacrific.


Your thoughts?

Sgat1r5



Yes. And also much more.

He is our Passover Lamb. We are covered by His blood. Of course this is from a Christian perspective.

Just offering a view from my perspective as a Christian. Nothing more. I am not going to argue my faith on this point with anyone. If someohne thinks its incorrect, then they are welcome to thier opinion.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 1:37:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By alaman:

You have no temple because Christ, your long awaited Messiah came and paid the price that your animal sacrifices represented. To perform animal sacrifices now would be idolatry. Suggest you read Isaiah chapter on our Suffering Savior. Fits Christ to a T. Then Matthew and Romans. Hebrews is to the point also.

That person may be YOUR long awaited Messiah but he means nothing to me. I suggest you read Isaiah again, the chapter you refer to is about Ezekiel.

The beauty is one day you will find out you are wrong when you stand before the Judgement Seat. It is about Christ. Ezekiel never fit any of the suffering servant passages. He was not despised of man, beaten beyond recognition, hung on a cross, etc. Only Christ was of all people in the Bible.

As Christ and Daniel both said, when He was rejected by the Jews, he turned to the Gentiles to form His Church and the Jews would be blinded. Daniel's Age of the Gentiles began. One day Christ will return, as He promised, and the Jews will accept Him and weap over their prior failure.

Again, take the time to read Matthew which is written to the Jews, Romans, and Hebrews and your eyes will be opened.

<­BR>





Link Posted: 8/21/2005 2:11:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By alaman:

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By alaman:

You have no temple because Christ, your long awaited Messiah came and paid the price that your animal sacrifices represented. To perform animal sacrifices now would be idolatry. Suggest you read Isaiah chapter on our Suffering Savior. Fits Christ to a T. Then Matthew and Romans. Hebrews is to the point also.

That person may be YOUR long awaited Messiah but he means nothing to me. I suggest you read Isaiah again, the chapter you refer to is about Ezekiel.

The beauty is one day you will find out you are wrong when you stand before the Judgement Seat. It is about Christ. Ezekiel never fit any of the suffering servant passages. He was not despised of man, beaten beyond recognition, hung on a cross, etc. Only Christ was of all people in the Bible.

As Christ and Daniel both said, when He was rejected by the Jews, he turned to the Gentiles to form His Church and the Jews would be blinded. Daniel's Age of the Gentiles began. One day Christ will return, as He promised, and the Jews will accept Him and weap over their prior failure.

Again, take the time to read Matthew which is written to the Jews, Romans, and Hebrews and your eyes will be opened.

This has taken the prize for the stupidest thing I have ever read on AR15.Com!

Congratulations!



<­BR>




Link Posted: 8/21/2005 2:40:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By alaman:

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By alaman:

You have no temple because Christ, your long awaited Messiah came and paid the price that your animal sacrifices represented. To perform animal sacrifices now would be idolatry. Suggest you read Isaiah chapter on our Suffering Savior. Fits Christ to a T. Then Matthew and Romans. Hebrews is to the point also.

That person may be YOUR long awaited Messiah but he means nothing to me. I suggest you read Isaiah again, the chapter you refer to is about Ezekiel.

The beauty is one day you will find out you are wrong when you stand before the Judgement Seat. It is about Christ. Ezekiel never fit any of the suffering servant passages. He was not despised of man, beaten beyond recognition, hung on a cross, etc. Only Christ was of all people in the Bible.

As Christ and Daniel both said, when He was rejected by the Jews, he turned to the Gentiles to form His Church and the Jews would be blinded. Daniel's Age of the Gentiles began. One day Christ will return, as He promised, and the Jews will accept Him and weap over their prior failure.

Again, take the time to read Matthew which is written to the Jews, Romans, and Hebrews and your eyes will be opened.

This has taken the prize for the stupidest thing I have ever read on AR15.Com!

Congratulations!

Glad you find it humorous. As I said, one day you will not be laughing. As Christ said, he was rejected by His own (the Jews) and Isaiah predicted the same. As for a stupid post, it is straight out of the Bible so your opinion of the Bible has to be the same. Enjoy.

<­BR>






Link Posted: 8/21/2005 2:51:10 PM EDT
Well the long answer is

YES.


On another note:

I see this forum being a big problem on ARFCOM. Apparently some folks find it fun and game to poke and prod the tenants of Christianity and organized religion. If you believe the Bible, fine. If you don't, I don't care. If you don't believe in the plan of salvation, fine but don't think you could come up with some humanistic plan on your own views of how man can live however he wants and there are no consequences for living in an hedonistic manner. If you don’t like being told that your cute little views on how God will treat you in the after-life are not correct and you have no backing or evidence to back up your point other than a hope that God will make an exception in your case. I don't care if you believe in a vengeful God, I do and there is the impasse. If you are agnostic, atheistic, or just a protagonist why are you in a forum dedicated to Religion and discussion of God?
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 3:10:20 PM EDT
In the Old Testament sins were forgiven only on the basis of shed blood.
Christ shed blood was the start of a new convenant with man.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 3:51:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By walttx:
In the Old Testament sins were forgiven only on the basis of shed blood.
Christ shed blood was the start of a new convenant with man.




I really do not understand where you all come up with this. The Old Testament does not say that the only remission for sin is the shedding of blood. It doesn't matter who says differently, and that includes Paul.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 4:22:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 4:32:16 PM EDT by walttx]

Originally Posted By Twister:

Originally Posted By walttx:
In the Old Testament sins were forgiven only on the basis of shed blood.
Christ shed blood was the start of a new convenant with man.




I really do not understand where you all come up with this. The Old Testament does not say that the only remission for sin is the shedding of blood. It doesn't matter who says differently, and that includes Paul.



What was the reason for the sacrafices in the old testament then ??
Leviticus chapter16 is about the sacrafices. is it not ??
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 5:04:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By walttx:
Leviticus chapter16 is about the sacrafices. is it not ??



Which is what brought all this on for me.

SGatr15
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 6:16:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 6:19:48 PM EDT by Twister]

Originally Posted By walttx:

Originally Posted By Twister:

Originally Posted By walttx:
In the Old Testament sins were forgiven only on the basis of shed blood.
Christ shed blood was the start of a new convenant with man.




I really do not understand where you all come up with this. The Old Testament does not say that the only remission for sin is the shedding of blood. It doesn't matter who says differently, and that includes Paul.



What was the reason for the sacrafices in the old testament then ??
Leviticus chapter16 is about the sacrafices. is it not ??






Just got back from walking the dog. I'm so gald you asked. Please be so kind as to read the entire explanation.```````````I'll keep it brief.Lev. 16
To begin we are discussing the once a year Special blood service ( not sacrifice)of the Kohen Gadol's own bull and the people's he goat performed in the Holy of Holies. Now if you noticed the bull is the offering(there is a distinct difference between an offering and a sacrifice- you can look this up) This bull was the atonement for the Sanctuary,the Tent of Meeting, and the Altar.
Then the Kohen places his two hands upon the he-goat and confesses on it all the iniquities of the nation, all the rebelious sins and all thier iniquities are placed on this goat, then the goat is sent into the desert(alive). This ritual of the scapegoat inspires the people to repent, for it symbloizes that people can remove from themselves the buden of past sins.
The two identical goats symbolize that every person must choose between good and evil,those who do not choose holiness are inevitably pushing themselves toward a wasteland of spritual destruction.



Edited to add: So as you can see their are very specific rules to this atonement and could never be done by anyone who is not the Kohen.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 9:37:49 PM EDT
Jesus blood paid the price we could not pay.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:20:45 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:41:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
So I was talking to my neighbor today. And the topic of the old testament and animal sacrifice came up. She mentioned how since Jesus was the Lamb of God and bleed on the cross that it was that action that fullfilled the blood sacrifices of the O.T., and is why sacrifice is not required anymore, because Jesus Himself was the sacrific.


Your thoughts?

Sgat1r5



that is what I was taught in Church as well.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:18:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 8:50:19 AM EDT by FanoftheBlackRifle]
From the non-christian point of view:

Jesus was crucified as a criminal by the Romans. There was no sacrificing intended on their part, any more than we "sacrifice" someone via lethal injection, or the gas chamber, or old-sparky. We kill them, yes, but not as a sacrifice.

ETA: Having said that, and seeing where the other thread on this topic went, and how quickly it went there, I'm bowing out of this thread as well. The muck flinging will commence shortly, I'm sure. I just won't be around for it.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 8:18:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By walttx:
In the Old Testament sins were forgiven only on the basis of shed blood.
Christ shed blood was the start of a new convenant with man.



Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.



AMEN!

Shok

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:03:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
So I was talking to my neighbor today. And the topic of the old testament and animal sacrifice came up. She mentioned how since Jesus was the Lamb of God and bleed on the cross that it was that action that fullfilled the blood sacrifices of the O.T., and is why sacrifice is not required anymore, because Jesus Himself was the sacrific.


Your thoughts?

Sgat1r5



___________________________________

The Christian "Old Testament" is not the Jewish Bible. It is an extremely novel reading of the septuagint Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. So reread, the Bible is no longer the history of the covenant and Torah, but a complex web of prediction of the life, death, and resurrection of jesus the mesiah.

Salvation through the death of jesus, as preached by the disiples of jesus to their fellow Jews was the christian gospel tenet as the forgiveness of sins. This is hardly conceivable to the jewish mind as the gentile world would have needed a gospel of forgiveness. Jews already knew about divine readiness to forgive the repentant, irregardless of sacrifice.


source:CHRISTIAN ANITSEMITISM: A History of Hate, William Nicholls, 1995, pp. 114-115.
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