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Posted: 9/20/2004 6:50:47 AM EST
i found this while surfing around. what do you think? Jesus never struck me as a Capitalist.
can anyone refute the assumption Jesus was a communist?


We have to first of all know that one of pillars of Communism is having a GODless State. So, my response to this question will ignore this pillar, since Jesus obviously was not GODless.

Aside from that, I believe that Jesus was closer to Communism than Capitalism for the following reasons:

1- Communism believes that everyone is equal. Capitalism's human equality is largely influenced by money.

2- Jesus disliked very much the tax collectors because they were money-driven and money-hungry (Matthew 5:46, 9:10, and Luke 3:11-13).

3- Jesus disliked the rich people and promised that only few of them will make it to Heaven (Matthew 19:23-26).

4- Jesus in points 2 and 3 clearly disliked the "Capitalist" people. He clearly disliked Capitalism, because this system is all about money. Human value is precisely determined by the amount of money the person has.

Therefore, I believe that Jesus' materialistic or capitalistic views were much closer to Communism.


Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:51:44 AM EST
jesus was obviously an idealistic communist, with hell as his siberia.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:51:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 6:52:08 AM EST by sgtar15]
Jesus is God.

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:52:42 AM EST
Jesus is God
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:53:35 AM EST
Neither...Jesus was more of an anarchist...
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:57:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:
Neither...Jesus was more of an anarchist...



Jesus was anything but an anarchrist. Anarchrists believe in totaly freedom, no laws or governments. Jesus believed in the Law of Moses and said to render unto Cazar what is Cazar's(pay your taxes) that goes totally against what anarchy is all about. Jesus we a communist in the purest sense of the meaning. Not like the Russians or Chinesee type of communist but as a pure, everyone is equal and holds all things in common kind of communist. If you don't believe me read the book of Acts were they sold their stuff and held everything in common. Try to tell me that's not communist.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:59:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Jesus is God.

Sgtar15



Absolutely. Capitalism and Communism don't really apply.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:59:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:
Neither...Jesus was more of an anarchist...



Jesus was anything but an anarchrist. Anarchrists believe in totaly freedom, no laws or governments. Jesus believed in the Law of Moses and said to render unto Cazar what is Cazar's(pay your taxes) that goes totally against what anarchy is all about. Jesus we a communist in the purest sense of the meaning. Not like the Russians or Chinesee type of communist but as a pure, everyone is equal and holds all things in common kind of communist. If you don't believe me read the book of Acts were they sold their stuff and held everything in common. Try to tell me that's not communist.



Jesus' goal was to tear down the current secular order...that's why he was persecuted (prosecuted) by the government at the time...like I said...anarchist...
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:59:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 7:00:08 AM EST by Rem700PSS]
Jesus wasn't a commuinist or capitalists, he was a pacifist.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:59:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Jesus is God.

Sgtar15



i am asking about his underlying economic and social philosophy. Not disputing his divinity.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:00:39 AM EST
Theocracy anyone?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:01:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By hk940:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Jesus is God.

Sgtar15



i am asking about his underlying economic and social philosophy. Not disputing his divinity.




Jesus answered trhis: "Render unto Ceaser what is Ceasers, render to God what is God's"


Sgatr15
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:05:35 AM EST
It's interesting how people can have such varied opinions of who He was/is, depending on what they want to see.

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:08:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:
Neither...Jesus was more of an anarchist...



Jesus was anything but an anarchrist. Anarchrists believe in totaly freedom, no laws or governments. Jesus believed in the Law of Moses and said to render unto Cazar what is Cazar's(pay your taxes) that goes totally against what anarchy is all about. Jesus we a communist in the purest sense of the meaning. Not like the Russians or Chinesee type of communist but as a pure, everyone is equal and holds all things in common kind of communist. If you don't believe me read the book of Acts were they sold their stuff and held everything in common. Try to tell me that's not communist.



Jesus' goal was to tear down the current secular order...that's why he was persecuted (prosecuted) by the government at the time...like I said...anarchist...



Jesus did not come to tear down the current secular order. When he didn't take up arms against the Romans and was ask why he said that His Kingdom was not of this world, also if you would take time to read the book of Hewbrews you'll see that Christians were to support and follow their governments policies, not attack and destroy them. Dude, you really need to read "The Book" more so you'll know what you're talking about. Not trying to flame you , it's just you've got many things wrong and when the truth of the matter is right there in black and white for you to read you shouldn't have any of it wrong. Read the book.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:08:16 AM EST
I brought this topic concept up about a year ago... does Christianity = Socialism?

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:09:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By hk940:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Jesus is God.

Sgtar15



i am asking about his underlying economic and social philosophy. Not disputing his divinity.




Jesus answered trhis: "Render unto Ceaser what is Ceasers, render to God what is God's"


Sgatr15



he said you should pay your taxes? not very telling one way or the other.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:10:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:
Neither...Jesus was more of an anarchist...



Jesus was anything but an anarchrist. Anarchrists believe in totaly freedom, no laws or governments. Jesus believed in the Law of Moses and said to render unto Cazar what is Cazar's(pay your taxes) that goes totally against what anarchy is all about. Jesus we a communist in the purest sense of the meaning. Not like the Russians or Chinesee type of communist but as a pure, everyone is equal and holds all things in common kind of communist. If you don't believe me read the book of Acts were they sold their stuff and held everything in common. Try to tell me that's not communist.



Jesus' goal was to tear down the current secular order...that's why he was persecuted (prosecuted) by the government at the time...like I said...anarchist...



Jesus did not come to tear down the current secular order. When he didn't take up arms against the Romans and was ask why he said that His Kingdom was not of this world, also if you would take time to read the book of Hewbrews you'll see that Christians were to support and follow their governments policies, not attack and destroy them. Dude, you really need to read "The Book" more so you'll know what you're talking about. Not trying to flame you , it's just you've got many things wrong and when the truth of the matter is right there in black and white for you to read you shouldn't have any of it wrong. Read the book.



Dude...I HAVE read the book...nice fairy tale...
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:13:03 AM EST

he was a pacifist.


Oh really…

NO

Tell that to those in the Temple who he THRASHED.

Pacifists do not tell their followers to arm themselves.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:14:16 AM EST
Maybe some of the Old Testament but the New Testement is more of an "eye whitness" account so it's more History then a "fairy tale". Wether you believe that Jesus was "God" or not you can't dispute the history of it, he was a real person that lived in the 1st Century, even people that don't believe in God believe that because of all the historical records, even secular ones from the Romans.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:16:48 AM EST

1- Communism believes that everyone is equal. Capitalism's human equality is largely influenced by money.


Do you really believe this? In practice, equality is an illusion when you consider the gulf between the masses and the ruling elite (aka dictators).


2- Jesus disliked very much the tax collectors because they were money-driven and money-hungry (Matthew 5:46, 9:10, and Luke 3:11-13).


Ever hear of Zacheus? He was a greedy little tax collector and Jesus picked him out of the crowd to have dinner with Him.


3- Jesus disliked the rich people and promised that only few of them will make it to Heaven (Matthew 19:23-26).


The target of such teachings is people who place their trust and faith in worldly wealth. Not rich people per se.


4- Jesus in points 2 and 3 clearly disliked the "Capitalist" people. He clearly disliked Capitalism, because this system is all about money. Human value is precisely determined by the amount of money the person has.


You sound like you've been indoctrinated by a liberal college professor. You have a theory and are trying to force Jesus to fit it.


Therefore, I believe that Jesus' materialistic or capitalistic views were much closer to Communism.


He operated within a capitalist system. He gave Peter a hand with his fishing business and provided money for buying food. He never said that money itself was bad, but rather that unhealthy attitudes toward money would bring problems.

The question itself is a red herring.

Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world. Thus, discussions like this are pointless. Rather, go and learn about His true kingdom in the spiritual realm, rather than try to make Him out to be a Marxist.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:18:33 AM EST
Discussing Jesus's favorite form of government is much akin to discussing the POTUS's favorite brand of nail-polish remover.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:18:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By BenDover:
I brought this topic concept up about a year ago... does Christianity = Socialism?




Since I wasn't here a year ago...

I can say a VERY QUALIFIED "yes".

Acts 2:44-45 All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.

However, membership in the group was VOLUNTARY, as was the selling of stuff for the common good. No one donated at swordpoint (unlike taxes). In fact, the motivation behind the giving was more important than the fact of it. A few verses later, we read of an attempt to "get both" charity and a few bucks in the pocket.

Acts 5:1-5 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.
Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."
When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.
[my emphasis]

A non-religious socialist would have simply called Ananias a thief for keeping back some of the money. Peter didn't call Ananias a thief, but a liar.

Does that help?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:18:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By BenDover:
I brought this topic concept up about a year ago... does Christianity = Socialism?




No.

Jesus talked about sharing with those who are in need, but He never advocated taking resources by force and giving them to the unmotivated.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:24:09 AM EST
I understand what you're saying Brohawk but I think we all mean "communist" in the pure sence, not in the worldly sence. Communism in it's purest sence has everyone holding all things in common-hence- the Commune has everyone doing things to help the good or the whole. If you read the book of Acts you'll see just that sort of communism among the believers, same as Jesus taught his disiples to share things and not to think in terms of "mine" or "yours" but more in terms of "ours". I agree that the communist system as taught by Marx and Lennon was a flawed form of communism, not pure where all were equal. Christ taught that all were equal and that we are to share what we have with others, that's communism in a nut shell.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:26:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By hk940:
1- Communism believes that everyone is equal. Capitalism's human equality is largely influenced by money.



"We hold these thruth to be self evident, that all men are created equal..." Ring a bell? I'll give you a hint, it isn't found in the Communist Manifesto.



2- Jesus disliked very much the tax collectors because they were money-driven and money-hungry (Matthew 5:46, 9:10, and Luke 3:11-13).



Jesus did not dislike tax collectors. One of Jesus's disciples (Matthew) was a former tax collector. (Matthew 10:3)

Historically during this time, tax collectors (publicans) were universally hated by Isrealits and Jews. This is because Tax Collectors were Jews who were responsible for collecting taxes for the Roman Empire which controlled Isreal. The Jewish tax collectors during this time were notorious for their graft and corruption. Jesus disliked the decitfulness and corruption of the tax collectors, not the tax collectors themselves.

Tax collectors had about as much to do with capitialism as the Mafia.


3- Jesus disliked the rich people and promised that only few of them will make it to Heaven (Matthew 19:23-26).


Jesus did not dislike rich people. Jesus stated that rich people often times held their wealth and possessions in higher regard than their relationship with God. Only those rich people who held their possessions in lower regard than their relationship with God, and following his will, are able to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The "Rich Young Ruler" in this story asked what he must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus, knowing this man's heart told him that he had to give up the thing that he held most dear and follow God. The rich young ruler chose his wealth and possessions over God. That is why Jesus said "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven."


4- Jesus in points 2 and 3 clearly disliked the "Capitalist" people. He clearly disliked Capitalism, because this system is all about money. Human value is precisely determined by the amount of money the person has.

Therefore, I believe that Jesus' materialistic or capitalistic views were much closer to Communism.



I am all for personal achievement, private ownership of wealth and property, and personal responsibility. But, anyone who truly believes that the value of a human is directly proportionate to the amount of money they have should recieve a public execution. These people would obviously place no value on the lives of the poor and middle class, and would willingly sacrifice other people's lives purely for the sake of profit. That is clearly one step too far!
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:30:54 AM EST
1 - Jesus could not have been a communist or a socialist, because he claimed to be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He was NOT equal. Also, all are not equal in heavan...though all are loved.


Matthew 6:19-20
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal."



You're good works on earth are accounted up in heavan. God is a good accountant.

2 - One of Jesus's Apostles was a Tax Collector...Matthew. Jesus didn't like sin, and the love of money is a very common sin.

3 - Jesus didn't say that very few rich people would enter heavan, but that it is very difficult. Jesus also does not say why it is difficult, but gives the example of getting a camel through the eye of a needle would be easier than a rich man getting into heavan. You could say that this means that Jesus doesn't like the rich, but that would be completely out of character of Jesus's entire character. Personally, I think it has much more to do with the attitudes of those who are rich. Mostly the difficulty the rich would have at giving up the lordship of their lives to Him.

4 - Neither points 2 or 3 from the original prove Jesus disliked capitalist people. And besides, if He disliked capitalists...I"d be in sorry shape.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:31:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
I understand what you're saying Brohawk but I think we all mean "communist" in the pure sence, not in the worldly sence. Communism in it's purest sence has everyone holding all things in common-hence- the Commune has everyone doing things to help the good or the whole. If you read the book of Acts you'll see just that sort of communism among the believers, same as Jesus taught his disiples to share things and not to think in terms of "mine" or "yours" but more in terms of "ours". I agree that the communist system as taught by Marx and Lennon was a flawed form of communism, not pure where all were equal. Christ taught that all were equal and that we are to share what we have with others, that's communism in a nut shell.



Ultimately, I think the proper attitude for a Christian is that everything is God's, and that He has entrusted us with stewardship. Thus, the resources I have are not strictly "mine", but are to be used for His service.

I'll freely admit that this is a principle that I'm imperfect in practicing, yet I believe it to be the ideal.

We get too wrapped up with "stuff" and lose sight of what really matters.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:35:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Ultimately, I think the proper attitude for a Christian is that everything is God's, and that He has entrusted us with stewardship. Thus, the resources I have are not strictly "mine", but are to be used for His service.

I'll freely admit that this is a principle that I'm imperfect in practicing, yet I believe it to be the ideal.

We get too wrapped up with "stuff" and lose sight of what really matters.



Most excellently put!
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:40:55 AM EST
Amen, everything that we own is basically "on loan" and even if you don't believe in God you still have to understand that someday you'll die and you can't take it with you so someone, other then you, will end up with what you've worked so hard for all of your life. My guns are mine while I'm here but I know that I'll die someday so I've made it clear that most of them will go to my Nephew after I die. I told my brother that I want his son to have them, I've told my wife the same thing. It's because he's on the same wave length as I am, he's into history, firearms and shooting so I want to pass them to someone that's like me and will appreciate them. I told my wife that it wasn't that I didn't love my grandkids it's just that they don't take care of things in the same way that I do. They're not into shooting and history like I am so to them my firearms would be just so much metal and wood but my Nephew will enjoy them and take care of them. My grandkids can have my DVD's and VHS tapes, my computer, my knives and other stuff but my guns to to my Nephew. I think the sooner that we understand that WE own nothing, that everything belongs to the future the better off we'll be. That way you can truly let go and enjoy what you've got while you're here.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:42:53 AM EST
All 4 of those assertions are completely false. As such the question, being based on false pretense, is ridiculous.


Jesus focused on eternity and the kingdom to come not on this earthly kingdom.

-LS
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:52:42 AM EST
Jesus was a warrior.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:05:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 8:07:09 AM EST by DonS]

Originally Posted By hk940:
. . .

Aside from that, I believe that Jesus was closer to Communism than Capitalism for the following reasons:

1- Communism believes that everyone is equal. Capitalism's human equality is largely influenced by money.



Under communism, it's "produce according to you ability, use according to your needs". That hardly implies that everyone is equal, rather it implies that those who produce more may recieve less. In capitalism, due to property rights, you recieve from the system in proportion to what you produce. Not so in communism, where you may recieve little relative to what you produce.


Originally Posted By hk940:
2- Jesus disliked very much the tax collectors because they were money-driven and money-hungry (Matthew 5:46, 9:10, and Luke 3:11-13).



Tax collectors are not capitalist. If anything, they are closer to communism.


Originally Posted By hk940:
3- Jesus disliked the rich people and promised that only few of them will make it to Heaven (Matthew 19:23-26).




Rich people like George Soros, Barbra Streisand, Theresa Heinz Kerry, etc., will probably burn in hell, and few believers in the capitialist system will cry.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:38:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 8:54:30 AM EST by wganz]
Let's answer who Jesus is then we'll look at His economic program.

Jesus very plainly stated in the Gospel of John, 8th chapter that He is The One that nailed the door shut for Noah, The One that commanded Abram of Ur to leave his home and changed his name to Abraham, The One that talked to Moses from the burning bush, and wrote the 10 commandments on Mount Sinai. He is The One that said that man 'would eat HIS bread in the sweat of HIS brow' and not bread given to him by a socialist nanny state. The laws that were laid down in the Old Testament were full of rules on buying and selling land and property. The Book of Proverbs is full of examples of what happens to the 'lazy man' or 'fool' that does not work. I won't even touch the subject of personal responsibility since that is SOooo obvious.

Hard work and personal responsibility are the deciding factors that distinguish between conservatives/capitalist and liberals/socialists. Have to put Jesus in the capitalist category.

wganz

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:15:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By wganz:

Hard work and personal responsibility are the deciding factors that distinguish between conservatives/capitalist and liberals/socialists. Have to put Jesus in the capitalist category.




Personally, I've always considered it foolishness to think of God as some sort of divine CEO. He's the King of Kings for a reason. God is a perfect Monarch with ownership over all creation. He gives us stewardship over much, but it is still His.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 11:57:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By CS223:
Jesus was a warrior.



He is the Lion of Judah, and the next time He comes He will have a sword in His hand.

So much for the pacifist argument, eh?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 12:51:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

he was a pacifist.


Oh really…

NO

Tell that to those in the Temple who he THRASHED.

Pacifists do not tell their followers to arm themselves.



+1
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 1:01:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

he was a pacifist.


Oh really…

NO

Tell that to those in the Temple who he THRASHED.

Pacifists do not tell their followers to arm themselves.



+1



When he says the meek shall inherit the earth, insert "diciplined/trained" for meek and you get a better understanding of the sentiment he expressed.

He was not a pacifist, and did not hang around with any.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 1:10:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By ghengiskhabb:

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

he was a pacifist.


Oh really…

NO

Tell that to those in the Temple who he THRASHED.

Pacifists do not tell their followers to arm themselves.



+1



When he says the meek shall inherit the earth, insert "diciplined/trained" for meek and you get a better understanding of the sentiment he expressed.

He was not a pacifist, and did not hang around with any.



Exactly...meek does not mean weak...it means having great power but using it judiciously...
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 1:10:58 PM EST
tagged for later
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 8:06:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:


Exactly...meek does not mean weak...it means having great power but using it judiciously...



Strength under control. Kind of like most American gun owners, eh?
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