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Posted: 3/12/2007 11:56:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/16/2007 8:55:03 PM EST by Scott574]
Still working on my home theater remodel that I posted about a few months ago. Stuff is starting to arrive and the project is taking shape. The demo and rebuilding of the demising wall will start this weekend, but a potential snag just occurred to me.

This is the wall:





The wall has a metal stud frame. I will be tearing it out and replacing it with a wood stud wall with slightly different dimensions. The wall is anchored in two places, the CBS wall on the left, and along the footer. It appears that the footer was originally anchored with an industrial type concrete nailer, every 8".

I will be hanging a 75lb monitor and a 50lb articulating mount on one side of the wall. I am concerned that the new wall will flex or lean with the weight as it is only anchored on two sides. The articulating mount can extend out up to 28", changing the weight distribution placed on the wall.

What is the best way for me to anchor the wall to the CBS and concrete floor for stability. Are there any framing techniques that would strengthen the wall and limit the flexing?
Link Posted: 3/13/2007 5:32:51 AM EST
you could add a post (floor to ceiling) on the "free" end of the wall...

a monitor of that weight, extended that far can exert a lot of force on whatever it's mounted to. Do your best to frame everything tight!, and if you're worried about the 2x4's being too weak, do what you said and frame it in 6's... you'd rather go overboard now, then be looking at a leaning wall afterwards

have you considered running some extra lumber in the wall where the mount will be anchored? if not; a few horizontal 2x4's between the studs at the appropriate height can make mounting the monitor alot easier later on...

good luck and take some more pictures as you go!
Link Posted: 3/13/2007 6:06:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/13/2007 6:09:34 AM EST by richardh247]
The metal framing is sized so that 2x4 lumber can be placed within the channels for added strength when the studs are to be used for weight bearing. You don't have to replace the metal studs for wood for the strength of wood in flex consideration, which makes less labor in tearout and design, of course.

However, flex in a demising wall anchored at 2 points will never go away, regardless of the backing and blocking you install, unless you go very wide (2x8 minimum for 75 pounds not evenly distributed). Either that, or you must find a 3rd point of attachment, which is what I suggest in your case.

On the kitchen opening end of the wall I'd do a full-length (floor to ceiling) 4x4 post and anchor to the trusses or a spanner between trusses if the flush end does not meet a truss side at plumb. You can paint this white or, if you want to rock it, rip off 1/2" or 5/8" (depending on existing rock) on two sides for a true flush finished surface. Or just nail 2 good 2x4s together (watch out they are not warped or cupped, or you'll never get that verticle perfectly plumb and it'll look like crap, which is why a 4x4 is better for this application).

Once you have the old rock off and the verticle support anchored to both the demising wall and the truss (or truss spanner), you need to add backing in the way of horizontal 2x4s at the mounting screw height of your new TV to actually support the gravitational weight. This will also help with flex, though minimally - but that's why the 3rd contact point is vital here.

Cheap. Easy. DIY. Effective. Attractive.

EDIT:

Poster above cheated! I was trying to do breakfast and it took me a while to type this out. That's 2 votes for a vertical pillar.
Link Posted: 3/13/2007 11:34:37 AM EST
A support column or a third attachement point would no doubt create a more secure wall. However, here is a suggestion if you would like to keep the 2 attachment points for the pony wall. You could frame a pony wall with a wider base. As I mentioned in my first post, I meant that I would still use 2x4 construction for the wall but make a wider base. Not necessarily with wider lumber. From your pictures, it does not look like a wider base wall would be that big of an issue. Also from the looks of your picture, if it were my home, I would want to leave the wall open without a support brace. However if I were to do a support brace it, I would have to do the finish work on it to be a column or something similar but then with a column, I would be concerned about symmetry on the other side of the room. But that is just me.

For the pony wall framing I suggest something along the lines of the sketch below. You can obviously adjust the backers to hang the TV or other equipment from and you can frame it a bit different but this is the idea of the wider base wall that I was speaking of. If you were to tapcon or ramset this type of framed pony wall into 2 sides, along all 2x4 contact points to the wall and floor, you should be able to support the weight you mentioned without a problem.

If you were to do the rough framing you could attempt to hang the TV from the wall to test it before you do the finish work on the wall. Also if you do a wider based wall with an open inner cavity, you could easily make recessed niches or shelves for other AV equipment, CD's, DVD's, pictures or whatever. Just an idea.

Link Posted: 3/13/2007 11:36:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/13/2007 11:37:46 AM EST by jacobsk]

Originally Posted By richardh247:
The metal framing is sized so that 2x4 lumber can be placed within the channels for added strength when the studs are to be used for weight bearing. You don't have to replace the metal studs for wood for the strength of wood in flex consideration, which makes less labor in tearout and design, of course.

However, flex in a demising wall anchored at 2 points will never go away, regardless of the backing and blocking you install, unless you go very wide (2x8 minimum for 75 pounds not evenly distributed). Either that, or you must find a 3rd point of attachment, which is what I suggest in your case.

On the kitchen opening end of the wall I'd do a full-length (floor to ceiling) 4x4 post and anchor to the trusses or a spanner between trusses if the flush end does not meet a truss side at plumb. You can paint this white or, if you want to rock it, rip off 1/2" or 5/8" (depending on existing rock) on two sides for a true flush finished surface. Or just nail 2 good 2x4s together (watch out they are not warped or cupped, or you'll never get that verticle perfectly plumb and it'll look like crap, which is why a 4x4 is better for this application).

Once you have the old rock off and the verticle support anchored to both the demising wall and the truss (or truss spanner), you need to add backing in the way of horizontal 2x4s at the mounting screw height of your new TV to actually support the gravitational weight. This will also help with flex, though minimally - but that's why the 3rd contact point is vital here.

Cheap. Easy. DIY. Effective. Attractive.

EDIT:

Poster above cheated! I was trying to do breakfast and it took me a while to type this out. That's 2 votes for a vertical pillar.


I'm doing the "I win" dance

I win, I win, I win!

sorry...
Link Posted: 3/13/2007 12:08:32 PM EST
Some good ideas here guys, thanks for the input!

I considered adding a vertical support at the untethered end, but decided I did not like how it gave the rooms A closed up effect.

As for the articulating mount, it is capable of extending out 28" which would really unbalance the load, but I can't really think of any situations I would extend it that far. 6" is proably more realistic.

The main reason for me starting the wall from scratch, rather than using the existing wall is because I am going to make it a little higher in the middle to raise the TV. I am also going to install in-wall speakers and I have found that the metal beams can resonate with the vibration.

I am going to frame the wall 16" OC but will add two extra vertical beams to fall directly behind the mount arms. The mount is designed to be mounted on two beams, but I will add some horizontal supports as suggested.

I like the idea of the wide wall that SSDSurf proposed. I'm gonna have to kick that idea around.
Link Posted: 3/13/2007 12:14:02 PM EST
Guys come on its 125 lbs! You dont need to engineer this to drive a truck across. A 2x4 wing wall will support 125 lbs fine. If you can not frame it to do so, pay someone to do it for you.
Link Posted: 3/13/2007 10:06:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Guys come on its 125 lbs! You dont need to engineer this to drive a truck across. A 2x4 wing wall will support 125 lbs fine. If you can not frame it to do so, pay someone to do it for you.


Its 125lbs flat against the wall. If he puts it on a mount that extends out from the wall, even at 6", the forces increase greatly. If it were flat against the wall or recessed into the wall, I would not be as concerned. But personally, if it were my home, I would feel much better if I overkilled the wall. It's not like its a lot more in costs for materials.
Link Posted: 3/14/2007 12:50:00 AM EST

You could give the wall a wider profile.

That's what I would do. I'd make it 24" or so inches deep with shelves for the stereo equipment. The extra weight of the equipment, books, DVD's, or whatever else you put on the shelves would help keep it upright when you extended the monitor.z
Link Posted: 3/14/2007 2:43:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2007 2:48:12 PM EST by Vibulenus]
Make the wall thick / wide, build the end of the wall as a cabinet for the electronics, pu the TV on top on a lazy-susan so you can turn it to face either room.

ETA - You could box the back of the set in a nice wood structure so it looks good on the other side. You could even hang a piece of art on it. Like a false wall in a horror movie, give it a spin and flip it around.

You're building from scratch, sky's the limit. And the only difference between plain and sweet is some imagination and where you make the cuts. And a few bucks for basic hardware.

And if money is no object, you could get one of those pop-up racks and bury the tv in the wall altogether.
Link Posted: 3/16/2007 12:32:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2007 12:34:21 PM EST by Scott574]
Just a little update for those of you that are interested. I knocked down the old wall today and will start the new one tomorrow. Demo took a little longer than I expected due to some stuborn anchors.



I discovered that the metal stud wall had some wood bracing.


I decided to leave the existing footer as it was already solidly anchored and I will save myself some work by attaching the new wall to it.






And another question! The wall has 2 electrical outlets, and 3 seperate lines going in. One outlet is connected to a single line, while the second outlet has two lines going into it. What is the purpose of this? Can I remove one line, bridge the outlet, and add a third outlet.

Link Posted: 3/16/2007 1:48:10 PM EST
One receptacle is on the dining room circuit and the other, the one with two wires in it, is on the living room circuit.

That's probably your home run box, the first receptacle from the panel in the series circuit. The second wire feeds the other receps in the circuit, so you can't just remove it. Here's what you do:

Remove the receptacle and add your third wire. Then pigtail the hot (black) and neutral (white) with a spare piece of black and white (so you have 4 wires under each wire nut, with one white and black going to the recep) and reattach. Remember, black under copper screw.

Make sure you test function before installing the new 'rock just to make sure.
Link Posted: 3/17/2007 1:20:43 AM EST
Don't you just hate it when people don't pigtail ? I also wish that they would do away with stab-ins. I don't know how many times I've had service calls to trouble shoot a circuit and found that the stab in fell out.
Link Posted: 3/21/2007 2:17:23 PM EST


Sweet!

I was just looking for the other thread to ask about an update
Link Posted: 3/21/2007 7:45:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By danpass:

Sweet!

I was just looking for the other thread to ask about an update


Thanks for keeping track. I was hoping to have it all framed out by last Sunday and do the drywall and finishing the following week, unfortunately I got a little sidetracked when someone posted the link for the new Oil Empires on-line game....had to join the Arfcom contingent and show my support!

I have half of the framing done with the rest to be finished this weekend. Disney next weekend so I will have to play it by ear.
Link Posted: 3/22/2007 2:22:38 PM EST
I hope I'm not too late! I'd core a hole in the concrete and set a piece of 3" pipe in the floor to help support the wall. Strap the pipe to the stude to stiffen the wall and you won't have to make it any wider than it is. You could also get a pipe made up with a flange and anchor it to the floor within the wall.
If you don't do something like that, the knee wall will eventually lean to one side with the amount of weight you plan to hang on it.
Link Posted: 3/22/2007 4:27:58 PM EST
I concur with the last dude. I'm in construction and dat's the best way to do it. Won't need a wide wall with the concrete filled post set into the floor. That is stout.
Link Posted: 3/22/2007 4:50:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/22/2007 4:51:56 PM EST by danpass]
There you go!


Just pour a concrete wall


or just lay some cinderblocks then slap drywall on it



You can always use it for cover
Link Posted: 3/23/2007 8:54:43 AM EST
You could get away with a 2x4 wall if you sheath the entire thing in 1/2 in plywood on both sides.
Fasten the ply with at least 10d nails at 6 in OC on all 2x lumber (top plate, bottom plate, studs) and use Titebond glue. The attachment to the bottom plate is the most important.
This will effectively turn it into a torsion box.
Use at least 4 inch long 3/8 inch bolts with steel wedge anchors to fasten the thing to the slab. Put the bolts on about 12 in OC and stagger them slightly off center down the length of the bottom plate. A 2 inch fender washer and a split lock washer uner each bolt head.

125 pounds is nit much until it is 12 inches from the surface and 4 feet off the floor.
The lever arm trying to overturn the wall is large enough to cause real issues.
Link Posted: 3/25/2007 8:40:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/29/2007 8:09:17 PM EST by Scott574]
Managed to pull myself away from Oil Empires long enough to get the framing and part of the drywall up this weekend.

The wall will be about 9" wide after the drywall is done. The front section is anchored with 3/8" Tapcons and is very solid. The rear section has a combination of 1/4 and 3/8" Tapcons. The sides are also anchored with 1/4" Tapcons. There is very little flex in the "loose" end of the wall, the box idea worked great and gave me additional anchor points.

I ended up making the wall about 6" lower than I originally planned on. I didn't care for the height after I sat at the kitchen table and looked things over. It will cause the top of the monitor to project up over the top of the wall once it is mounted, but I prefer that to a higher wall. I also considered a more modern-looking stepped down top rail, but the other half shot down that idea.





Next up is routing the electrical, phone, cable, satellite, and speaker wires, and adding another outlet up high behind the monitor.



Link Posted: 3/26/2007 5:49:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/26/2007 5:54:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Scott574:
Managed to pull myself away from Oil Empires long enough to get the framing and part of the drywall up this weekend.

The wall will be about 9" wide after the drywall is done. The front section is anchored with 3/8" Tapcons and is very solid. The rear section has a combination of 1/4 and 3/8" Tapcons. The sides are also anchored with 1/4" Tapcons. There is very little flex in the "loose" end of the wall, the box idea worked great and gave me additional anchor points.

I ended up making the wall about 6" lower than I originally planned on. I didn't care for the height after I sat at the kitchen table and looked things over. It will cause the top of the monitor to project up over the top of the wall once it is mounted, but I prefer that to a higher wall. I also considered a more modern-looking stepped down top rail, but the other half shot down that idea.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/Scott574/Picture017.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/Scott574/Picture019.jpg

Next up is routing the electrical, phone, cable, satellite, and speaker wires, and adding another outlet up high behind the monitor.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/Scott574/Picture025.jpg



looks good!


bonus points for the Diet Coke


no potato chips though .....
Link Posted: 3/29/2007 11:27:54 AM EST
On the low voltage side of things, I'd recommend doing a few small things before the sheetrock is up to allow you good flexibility.

First, consider running some 1" EMT conduit from your orange LV box up to the ceiling. Solid-wall metal conduit is the absolute best way to reduce EMI (electromagnetic interference). This will allow you to avoid interference from the romex. In addition, allow easy flexibility so future recabling is a trivial task.

In addition, maybe consider another LV box above the existing ones which would serve the TV. For example, you can purchase a Decora HDMI receptacle, or composite jacks, and reduce cabling which would otherwise be dangling outside the wall. Again, consider running conduit between the two boxes. At the minimum, just put a blank faceplate above and terminate with whatever you desire later.


Blake C.
BICSI Registered Communications Distribution Designer
Link Posted: 4/7/2007 6:36:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/7/2007 6:39:27 PM EST by Scott574]
Just a quick update. The rock is on, sanded, primed, and painted. I hope to have the display mounted and in-wall speakers in by tomorrow. Just need to do some touchup on minor blemishes.









I went with bullnose corner bead on the wall to give it a softer look. I still need to cut in 2 trim rings one high and one low, for the HDMI cables to pass from behind the display to the components. I am very happy with the wider footprint as compared to the original wall.

ETA: Also need to repaint the outside wall since the family room was flat and the kitchen is semi-gloss. I no longer have the vertical wood trim seperating the two rooms as you can see in the last picture.
Link Posted: 4/7/2007 6:59:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By Scott574:
Just a quick update. The rock is on, sanded, primed, and painted. I hope to have the display mounted and in-wall speakers in by tomorrow. Just need to do some touchup on minor blemishes.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/Scott574/Picture028.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/Scott574/Picture030.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/Scott574/Picture037-1.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/Scott574/Picture038-2.jpg

I went with bullnose corner bead on the wall to give it a softer look. I still need to cut in 2 trim rings one high and one low, for the HDMI cables to pass from behind the display to the components. I am very happy with the wider footprint as compared to the original wall.

ETA: Also need to repaint the outside wall since the family room was flat and the kitchen is semi-gloss. I no longer have the vertical wood trim seperating the two rooms as you can see in the last picture.




Looking real good!
Link Posted: 4/15/2007 9:11:30 PM EST
Been slacking on the updates.



Rear surround speakers


Lighting sucks on these next two. Color is off, but you get the idea.




The good news is the wall supports the TV extended out to 28" without a groan. The bad news is I am not 100% happy with the mount as it places the TV out a little farther from the wall than I hoped for, about 3". They make a flush mount box which installs bewtween studs and lets the arms retract inside the wall, giving a 1" gap. I am considering retrofiting the box but it would involve me moving two studs, not sure it is worth it.

I will post pictures of the mounted TV in a day or so.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 2:26:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/16/2007 3:44:35 AM EST by ktrout01]
I better get going on my own home theater project. I became the proud owner of a mid-range LCD projector and I'm converting a basement bedroom into a small home theater.

You've got me motivated to get that project moving.
Link Posted: 4/16/2007 3:31:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Scott574:
..............



.................

I will post pictures of the mounted TV in a day or so.



Nice!


Link Posted: 5/16/2007 4:43:33 PM EST
new pics?


Red Dawn perhaps ?
Link Posted: 5/16/2007 7:52:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By danpass:
new pics?


Red Dawn perhaps ?



Since you asked.........


A/V connections


mount attachment point






extended






I need to find a very low profile A/V cabinet that will not block the center channel, not an easy task. I may end up trying my hand at cabinet building.

I decided to go ahead and order the recessed wall box for the mount since I am not happy with the amount of space behind the plasma. I would prefer a more flush look. That means I will have to cut into the center of the wall, remove 2 studs, and relocate them to accommodate the box. Not looking forward to it.

Red Dawn once the project is 100% finished.


Link Posted: 5/16/2007 9:15:42 PM EST
Looking good.. Lets see it 100%
Link Posted: 5/16/2007 10:20:34 PM EST
Looks good.

Too bad you didn't make the wall thicker like a cabinet or piece of furniture with a recessed area for the TV and built-ins for the components.
Link Posted: 5/17/2007 3:34:22 AM EST
looking good
Link Posted: 5/17/2007 9:49:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By SSDSurf:
Looks good.

Too bad you didn't make the wall thicker like a cabinet or piece of furniture with a recessed area for the TV and built-ins for the components.


You might have noticed from the construction pics that I took your suggestion from earlier and framed it as a box. Great idea, it is rock solid, even with the arm fully extended!

I was veto'd by the other half who put her limitations on how thick she wanted it. She also wanted a clean, simple look with a long, slender cabinet to go underneath the plasma. Did the best I could given the limitations.
Link Posted: 5/18/2007 2:56:00 AM EST
You'll have to make the cabinetry


How about a squarish cabinet against the patio door wall? Or do those jars 'have' to be there ?



Any way to get the A/V components somewhere else entirely? I know you already wired up the connections into the wall ... but hey
Link Posted: 5/18/2007 3:21:31 AM EST
Well, it's too late, but I'll throw my idea for firming up the wall out there any ways.

Since you have all that horizontal bracing, you could have run a couple long pieces of threaded rod horizontaly from the outside of the wall into the exterior wall. Secure it on each end with some big washers and a couple nuts tightened onto eachother.

Link Posted: 5/19/2007 6:13:06 PM EST
Looking real good!
Link Posted: 5/22/2007 1:02:09 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By Scott574:
height=8
Originally Posted By danpass:
new pics?


Red Dawn perhaps h.gif ?



Since you asked.........href=img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/Scott574/Picture070-1.jpg

mount attachment point
img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/Scott574/Picture071.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/Scott574/Picture072.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/Scott574/Picture074.jpg

extended
img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/Scott574/Picture076.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/Scott574/Picture079.jpg



I need to find a very low profile A/V cabinet that will not block the center channel, not an easy task. I may end up trying my hand at cabinet building. head

Red Dawn once the project is 100% finished. ikea tends to make some pretty low-pro cabinets you might wanna check them out they should have something that would be low enough to clear that speaker... either that or seperate the components to two smaller cabinets and put them on either side of the center speaker
Link Posted: 6/16/2007 3:50:28 PM EST
moh pics?
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 5:51:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/18/2007 5:52:38 PM EST by POG926]
Awesome job! Gives me some good ideas for my room.
Link Posted: 6/19/2007 8:57:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/19/2007 9:02:21 PM EST by Scott574]
I got distracted and haven't done anything new since I posted the last update. Since I got the kick in the butt, I will be ordering the in-wall mount box tomorrow! This is what I am ordering:

www.chiefmfg.com/client_files/video/Chief_Inwall_M.wmv


Once I tear back into the wall and get the box mounted I will have a better idea of what height component cabinet I will need. Still going to have to be custom made I think.
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