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Posted: 2/15/2013 4:55:21 PM EDT
The events of February 28, 1993 forever changed the way I view the world around me. I could never have imagined our government, our guardians of democracy, our protectors of freedom attacking a group of men women and children to execute an arrest warrant on one man. As I remember, the events that led up to the day in April when the building burned to the ground, killing 81 men, women and children.
The anger and anguish I felt that day can only compare to the feelings I felt on September 11th when the towers fell.And then when the place was bulldozed even before the smoke had cleared, I knew if it could happen there it could happen anywhere.
This is what I remember. Those guys used to buy sell and trade stuff at gun shows mostly accessories like magazines and gun parts and lots of books. Some guns, but mostly other stuff. UPS was delivering a box with inert hand grenades, the ones with the hole on the bottom. The box fell and broke open and the UPS guy thought they were real. He called the sheriff's department before the ATF got involved. The ATF rented a place across the street and started surveillance and befriended some of the Dividians. Koresh even invited them over to dinner, they didn't go. After a while, they got a warrant for David Koresh.
As the weeks passed, Koresh frequently went into town and the ATF passed up opportunities to pick him up when he was alone. So they waited until the last day of the warrant which expired February 28th.
They set up the raid with the news media tagging along so that the world could see what a great job the ATF was doing. What the world saw was the ATF getting their asses handed to them. On the way, one of the reporters stopped the mailman to ask directions, turns out the mailman was a Dividian who alerted the group that the ATF was coming.
What ensued was well documented and can be seen on youtube. Look up DAY 51 if you have never watched it please take the time to do so. In the warrant, the ATF made claims that there were drugs involved, in order to get an Army Reserve helicopter., because the military could only participate if drugs were involved. Drugs were never involved. Some of the people came out before the end of the siege, and the children spoke of sun beams appearing through the small holes in the ceiling. These were made from a M-60 machine gun being shot into the building indiscriminately. Throughout the siege, they accused the Dividians of everything under the sun from abuse to making illegal weapons. Although none of these claims was ever substantiated.
Most of the awareness that we have today about the abuse of government and gun bans comes from the mass outrage due to the events in Waco twenty years ago, as well as Ruby Ridge the previous year. Please share what you remember so that we can educate the younger members. Again, watch DAY 51 waco 8 parts at allot or religious crap but the videos don't lie
And this was 20 years ago could be today

Pay attention to the hearings and see who was there Shumer Feinstein Biden the look on their face says it all

Who needs a gun

Please watch this and remind your friends this can happen today to any of us

New one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCblw0_ls7M

Day51
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYDV9_wzIVQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahRtL6_h0Oo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QHhDqD51ak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUxGQKg8yGY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klFrG-vt16o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTyOx2jhRNs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VBaWpw9Kk8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e42wyiTgDYk

I had no idea the extent of delta operators in Waco

Here is a video I hadn't seen before re: military involvement in Waco Posse Comitatus Violations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR8UbTVIhOc


Im trying to remind those who are old enough to remember

And Teach those young enough who never knew

Link Posted: 2/15/2013 4:56:10 PM EDT
first
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 4:58:04 PM EDT
Seems like the other day....
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 4:59:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2013 5:00:09 PM EDT by Heartbreaker1373]
These are always calm, rational discussions that end well.

ETA: Not making light of Waco. That incident was beyond fucked up.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 5:20:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 5:21:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 5:27:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 5:30:18 PM EDT


Link Posted: 2/15/2013 5:31:35 PM EDT
I only ever have one thing to say about Waco.
Fuck the ATF!
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 5:35:20 PM EDT
That was 20 years ago? Damn.........
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 5:40:13 PM EDT
From the video I seen in Waco rules of engagement the helicopter door gunner killed their own people not the Davidions, also from that video a gov officer showed a AK that was "recovered" from the compound after it burned to the ground and the AK was pristine except the center of the sling was missing and just the ends of the leather was charred a little.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 6:18:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fluke:
That was 20 years ago? Damn.........

Yeah, no kidding.

I remember how fast it went up-it was unreal.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 6:28:18 PM EDT
waco was fucked up but that Koresh guy was a whack job. Heard some of the branch davidians were shot trying to escape. Definately an abuse of power but fucked up all the way around.

Now ruby ridge, that is the one that brings this shit all home to me. The government gives you the wrong date for court, puts a bench warrant on your ass, shoots your dog, your wife, and your kid on some bullshit charges.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 6:30:12 PM EDT
In on page 1
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 6:32:34 PM EDT
IN!
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 6:33:02 PM EDT


If we had scanner feeds on the internet at the time I have to wonder if we would've heard things like "Burn it down" "Burn this mother fucker down".
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 6:35:42 PM EDT
Page 1. I'm in.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 6:37:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 6:39:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 6:55:03 PM EDT
I learned some thing new when i watched the new video the Sniper Lon Horiuchi That Killed Vickie Weaver Was On The Sniper Team In Waco

The after action report said they did not fire at the compound however 4 empty brass were recovered from their snipers hide
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 7:17:38 PM EDT
Remember waco.
Lesson number 1 from Waco:
you do not let an enemy force retreat, you make them surrender.
Lesson number 2 from Waco:
fixed positions always fall.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 7:24:45 PM EDT
I was in High School when this happened, and never thought it was anything more than what was reported. I followed Fast and Furious since it hit the news, and couldn't help notice a lot of the same people involved, tactics, and lies.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 7:26:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lazyr2u:
I learned some thing new when i watched the new video the Sniper Lon Horiuchi That Killed Vickie Weaver Was On The Sniper Team In Waco

The after action report said they did not fire at the compound however 4 empty brass were recovered from their snipers hide

Left over from the ATF shootout on day 1.

and .....IBTL
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 7:28:18 PM EDT
I personally like ...Mister....NIEL.....DIAMOND!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3S7mlRYL-8
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 7:35:26 PM EDT
Seriously check the names involved, they're still doing dirty work in 0bama's administration.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 7:36:02 PM EDT
In on 1
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 7:38:39 PM EDT
in
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 7:38:45 PM EDT
Tag to remind myself to ask my dad about Waco tomorrow. I was only 4 when it happened, but I bet he remembers it pretty well. It should be interesting to get his take on it, as he typically trusts whatever the "official" story on events like this say.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 7:44:50 PM EDT
In on this one for sure
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:10:10 PM EDT
To the OP: it was a wakeup call for me as well.

That being said......in before the usual suspects show up.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:12:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2013 8:12:46 PM EDT by TheShlouf]
Originally Posted By slims_88:
Tag to remind myself to ask my dad about Waco tomorrow. I was only 4 when it happened, but I bet he remembers it pretty well. It should be interesting to get his take on it, as he typically trusts whatever the "official" story on events like this say.


I was thinking the exact same thing. Mommy was pregnant with me when it happened and daddy has/had his FFL at that time so it'll be a good conversation piece about what kind of crazyness went on around here since we live 2 hrs from where it all happened and what he thought about all of it.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:13:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lazyr2u:
The events of February 28, 1993 forever changed the way I view the world around me. I could never have imagined our government, our guardians of democracy, our protectors of freedom attacking a group of men women and children to execute an arrest warrant on one man. As I remember, the events that led up to the day in April when the building burned to the ground, killing 81 men, women and children.
The anger and anguish I felt that day can only compare to the feelings I felt on September 11th when the towers fell.And then when the place was bulldozed even before the smoke had cleared, I knew if it could happen there it could happen anywhere.
This is what I remember. Those guys used to buy sell and trade stuff at gun shows mostly accessories like magazines and gun parts and lots of books. Some guns, but mostly other stuff. UPS was delivering a box with inert hand grenades, the ones with the hole on the bottom. The box fell and broke open and the UPS guy thought they were real. He called the sheriff's department before the ATF got involved. The ATF rented a place across the street and started surveillance and befriended some of the Dividians. Koresh even invited them over to dinner, they didn't go. After a while, they got a warrant for David Koresh.
As the weeks passed, Koresh frequently went into town and the ATF passed up opportunities to pick him up when he was alone. So they waited until the last day of the warrant which expired February 28th.
They set up the raid with the news media tagging along so that the world could see what a great job the ATF was doing. What the world saw was the ATF getting their asses handed to them. On the way, one of the reporters stopped the mailman to ask directions, turns out the mailman was a Dividian who alerted the group that the ATF was coming.
What ensued was well documented and can be seen on youtube. Look up DAY 51 if you have never watched it please take the time to do so. In the warrant, the ATF made claims that there were drugs involved, in order to get an Army Reserve helicopter., because the military could only participate if drugs were involved. Drugs were never involved. Some of the people came out before the end of the siege, and the children spoke of sun beams appearing through the small holes in the ceiling. These were made from a M-60 machine gun being shot into the building indiscriminately. Throughout the siege, they accused the Dividians of everything under the sun from abuse to making illegal weapons. Although none of these claims was ever substantiated.
Most of the awareness that we have today about the abuse of government and gun bans comes from the mass outrage due to the events in Waco twenty years ago, as well as Ruby Ridge the previous year. Please share what you remember so that we can educate the younger members. Again, watch DAY 51 waco 8 parts at allot or religious crap but the videos don't lie
And this was 20 years ago could be today

Pay attention to the hearings and see who was there Shumer Feinstein Biden the look on their face says it all

Who needs a gun

Please watch this and remind your friends this can happen today to any of us

New one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCblw0_ls7M

Day51
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYDV9_wzIVQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahRtL6_h0Oo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QHhDqD51ak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUxGQKg8yGY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klFrG-vt16o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTyOx2jhRNs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VBaWpw9Kk8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e42wyiTgDYk

I had no idea the extent of delta operators in Waco

Here is a video I hadn't seen before re: military involvement in Waco Posse Comitatus Violations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR8UbTVIhOc


Im trying to remind those who are old enough to remember

And Teach those young enough who never knew





SHIT... if they get Delta and Devgru against us again.... I thought they would be on our side...

Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:14:20 PM EDT
All ole wacky Vernon Wayne Howell had to do was walk out the door.

Of course all the ATF had to do was wait him out.

50 to one, a half dozen to the other.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:15:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KA3B:
All ole wacky Vernon Wayne Howell had to do was walk out the door.

Of course all the ATF had to do was wait him out.

50 to one, a half dozen to the other.


Or they could have got him when he went into town.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:17:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:21:48 PM EDT
Delta is coming to get you.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:24:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Blacktide:
Delta is coming to get you.


What kind of pants are they going to wear?
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:28:20 PM EDT
I hope Vernon Howell burns in Hell the child molesting piece of shit.

What the government did was all fucked up though. Its what happens when you let politicians 1,000 miles away call all the shots.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:31:32 PM EDT
I remember them gassing the compound.
Then it catching on fire.
I said "no shit!"
ATF incompetence
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:33:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OKSoda:
Originally Posted By KA3B:
All ole wacky Vernon Wayne Howell had to do was walk out the door.

Of course all the ATF had to do was wait him out.

50 to one, a half dozen to the other.


Or they could have got him when he went into town.


That still doesn't solve the problem of the search warrant for Mt. Carmel that needed to be served, but I seem to remember having this thread before, and I have a good idea where this will end up.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:33:51 PM EDT
The .gov and media's demonization of those people is one of the things has stayed with me over the years. Every day it seemed the accusations became worse. And as said above, the media never questioned anything the ATF, FBI, et al, put out.

I remember my BIL and I walking in to Pappa Rollo's Pizza in '95. Mom was in the hospital and we went out for lunch. The walls inside the door, leading up to the front counter, were covered with pictures of the compound, some of the place burning, pictures of the APC's, etc. With a plaque above the pictures saying, "PAPPA ROLLO'S THANKS THE FBI". Some of those pictures were signed, by I assume various agents.
I realize that fast-food joints made good money delivering their shitty food 10 miles out of town during the seige, but really?

We both felt sick seeing this shit and walked out.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:35:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KA3B:
All ole wacky Vernon Wayne Howell had to do was walk out the door.

Of course all the ATF had to do was wait him out.

50 to one, a half dozen to the other.

Waco does appear to be a fine example of two assholes colliding. However, there are lessons to be learned from the events before, during & after. Many lessons.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:41:11 PM EDT
I was stationed at Ft Hood when all this went down, 1/8 Cav, 1st Cav Div. My unit sent advisors and taught the ATF and FBI agents how to operate the Bradelys and M88 wreckers used to breech and pump gas into the compound. I am not aware of any Delta being on site, but who knows.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:44:49 PM EDT
ni.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:48:11 PM EDT
Freakiest feeling I've ever felt was when I was driving up their driveway a couple years ago.

Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:49:47 PM EDT
I remember the movie, the way they portrayed David Koresh, as a messiah who had sex with all the women and some underage girls. In a brief description a modern Jim Jones only nobody died from positioned Kool Aid but by local and govt. agencies. In the movie they made the agents look like weekend warriors, they put up ladders right in front of windows and got shot as they were ascending towards the second story.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:52:05 PM EDT
I was in junior high then and grew up in a town less than 40 miles away. We got all our news channels out of Waco so I remember the non stop coverage of it. So sad the women and children. Even as a junior high kid I saw how screwed up the federal government was.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:55:59 PM EDT
I was old enough, just the way it was portrayed in a negative way by the media as in The Branch Davidians were like a cult. They even flew the flag of Israel if I'm not mistaken.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 9:03:37 PM EDT
Both sides were in the wrong. Both sides had villans. Ain't no heros at Waco. Ain't no martyrs either.

Horrible though about all those children.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 9:07:38 PM EDT
I said the same thing. Its waco all over again!
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 9:08:07 PM EDT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

The Kent State shootings—also known as the May 4 massacre or the Kent State massacre[2][3][4]—occurred at Kent State University in the U.S. city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970.

More Government sanctioned murder.
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