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Posted: 4/21/2016 6:46:49 PM EDT
Assume the division of labor for the allies was Royal Navy in the Atlantic, French in the Mediterranean Sea.



Italian Navy was pretty good (much better than their Army).  They suffered from no Radar and Sonar, using optical rangefinders.




Italians didn't "need" aircraft carriers according to their doctrine, because any Med. engagement would be within land based aircraft range.







Assume the French and Italian Navies as constituted in 1940 go at it full bore for control of the Mediterranean.




Brits are in the Atlantic fighting U boats and commerce raiders.




Who wins?




How long does it take?
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 6:48:17 PM EDT
It's a race to the bottom for both Navies


Link Posted: 4/21/2016 6:51:03 PM EDT
Its a draw after the first brief exchange of shells when both countries decide thier expensive status symbols arent worth losing.

They retire to safe harbors and continue aggressive posturing until the US Navy arrives and settles the dispute.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 6:52:18 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AeroScout23:
Its a draw after the first brief exchange of shells when both countries decide thier expensive status symbols arent worth losing.

They retire to safe harbors and continue aggressive posturing until the US Navy arrives and settles the dispute.
View Quote


Next thread, please.  
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 6:58:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 7:03:38 PM EDT by primuspilum]


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Originally Posted By AeroScout23:



Its a draw after the first brief exchange of shells when both countries decide thier expensive status symbols arent worth losing.





They retire to safe harbors and continue aggressive posturing until the US Navy arrives and settles the dispute.
View Quote










Outclassed by the Brits, but still dangerous and capable of putting up a good fight




 





Italian Regia Marina:







HMS Queen Elizabeth (sunk)


HMS Bedouin (sunk)
HMS Valiant (sunk)

etc.












The Italian fleet went on the offensive, blocking or mauling three large Allied convoys bound for Malta. This led to a number of naval engagements, including the Second Battle of Sirte in March 1942, Operation Harpoon and Operation Vigorous, (known as the "Battle of Mid-June") and Operation Pedestal (the "Battle of Mid-August"). All of these engagements were favourable to the Axis.









 
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:02:36 PM EDT
if France didn't get curb stomped, Mussolini would have stayed out of it altogether. he only jumped in after he thought the heavy lifting had been done
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:05:20 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By Fourays2:


if France didn't get curb stomped, Mussolini would have stayed out of it altogether. he only jumped in after he thought the heavy lifting had been done
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And even when he finally got around to invading SE France when he figured "they were already beaten" the French slapped the shit out of the Italian Army there.
 
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:09:07 PM EDT
I'd say Frenchies, cause you know, the Italians were relatively worthless in the war, strategically (and maybe tactically).
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:10:49 PM EDT
I don't know but like you said, I hope their navy was better than their army.  The Italian adventure into France, even as France was being beat, was a disaster....like every Italian effort in the war.  Hitler really had to regret hitching his wagon to those losers.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:11:50 PM EDT
France.

Super Destroyers FTW!!!

Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:13:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By primuspilum:


Assume the division of labor for the allies was Royal Navy in the Atlantic, French in the Mediterranean Sea.



Italian Navy was pretty good (much better than their Army).  They suffered from no Radar and Sonar, using optical rangefinders.





View Quote


The main problems the Italian Army had were that their officer corps (with a few exceptions) were morons who had zero regard for their men, not enough NCOs (some of which were very good) and the fact that Italy was planning on the war starting in 1943 so even though they may have had their million bayonets they didn't have proper gear in service for a war of that scale when it happened. That's leaving aside that Mussolini was writing checks his army couldn't cash (Yugoslavia, Greece, etc) without help from Ze Germans and Italian manufacturing capability was woefully inadequate for a war like wound up being fought.



Some of the institutional problems bled into the Italian Navy and Air Force (manufacturing especially with the Regia Aeronautica, they could design some very nice planes, they just couldn't build them as quickly as they needed to or in the numbers) but the Army was always their biggest issue.



 
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:15:03 PM EDT
The Italians,perhaps shockingly,were more competent sailors.

Question though,are the French assets in the Atlantic having to fight through the Strait of Gibraltar or all magically in the Med?
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:15:56 PM EDT
France had Dunkerque and Stratsbourg which could defeat any of the modernized WW I Italian battleships.  Bigger gonnes, superior armor higher speed.  In a head-on attack, the two French battlecruisers would easily outgun those four old battleships (Conte di Cavour (and her sister) and Andrea Doria (and her sister)).  French cruisers also had heavier armor but were slower than their Italian counterparts.  French destroyers also tended to be heavier than their Italian counterparts.

The only ships that would give the French trouble would be the Littorio class battleships.  They carried bigger guns (15") than the Dunkerque & Stratsburg.  The Richelieus could handle them but one was not even finished when the Royal Navy decided to visit them in the African ports.  Her sister was even further behind in completion.

I'd give victory to the French in 1940 if they had an aggressive admiral. By 1942 the Italians would have three Littorios to the two Richelieus.  They also had Decima Mas but would require ports close to France to threaten Toulon.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:16:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By outofbattery:
The Italians,perhaps shockingly,were more competent sailors.

Question though,are the French assets in the Atlantic having to fight through the Strait of Gibraltar or all magically in the Med?
View Quote


Why would they have to fight through the straits?  The UK was their Ally.

And the majority of the French Navy was in the Med already.

Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:20:14 PM EDT
Didn't the Iti's get their fleet bombed to fuck by the Brits fairly early on?  Taranto?  



Is there any reason to believe that the French couldn't have done the same thing?  Using bombers from N. Africa if necessary?  
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:23:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 7:24:43 PM EDT by 4v50]
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Originally Posted By Deadtired:
Didn't the Iti's get their fleet bombed to fuck by the Brits fairly early on?  Taranto?  

Is there any reason to believe that the French couldn't have done the same thing?  Using bombers from N. Africa if necessary?  
View Quote

From what base?  Corsica?  The French had only one aircraft carrier, Bearn, and her aircraft group was less than one of our larger escort carriers or light carriers.  Stil, the Bearn's presence operating with the older French dreadnoughts like Courbet, Bretange and others would be enough to cause the Italians to flee.

Regia Aeronautica sucked big time when it came to cooperating with Regia Marina.  I would expect better from the French.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:26:45 PM EDT
Did either of them have torpedo and/or dive bombers of sufficient capability and numbers at the time?


Also what is the hypothetical timeline for radar fire control to be gifted?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:29:48 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By Deadtired:


Didn't the Iti's get their fleet bombed to fuck by the Brits fairly early on?  Taranto?  



Is there any reason to believe that the French couldn't have done the same thing?  Using bombers from N. Africa if necessary?  
View Quote


The way the Brits did it was ingenious and laid the foundation for the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, the French couldn't have just loaded up a few torpedoes on their medium bombers and done the same thing given their capabilities.
 
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:30:32 PM EDT
I read a book (holy fuck) about the italian navy in the med during WW2.

Fucking clown shoes.

but I know nothing about the french navy of the time.  I foresee lots of sailing around, the italian air force fucking up and sinking as many italian ships as french ships, and crews battling to surrender first.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:42:44 PM EDT
The French Navy had newer, more advanced ships. Might not have has as many as the Italian Navy but they were really well designed and considered cutting-edge in 1940. They also had vastly superior crews. I vote Frenchies. Vive la France!
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:45:44 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By outofbattery:


The Italians,perhaps shockingly,were more competent sailors.



Question though,are the French assets in the Atlantic having to fight through the Strait of Gibraltar or all magically in the Med?
View Quote




 



Division of labor is Brits in the Atlantic, so French are all in the Med
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:48:54 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By Sylvan:


I read a book (holy fuck) about the italian navy in the med during WW2.



Fucking clown shoes.



but I know nothing about the french navy of the time.  I foresee lots of sailing around, the italian air force fucking up and sinking as many italian ships as french ships, and crews battling to surrender first.
View Quote




 



Italians had some very impressive capabilities.  




Naval Special warfare, for example.




Seriously.






Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:54:34 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By primuspilum:

 

Italians had some very impressive capabilities.  


Naval Special warfare, for example.


Seriously.




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Originally Posted By primuspilum:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
I read a book (holy fuck) about the italian navy in the med during WW2.

Fucking clown shoes.

but I know nothing about the french navy of the time.  I foresee lots of sailing around, the italian air force fucking up and sinking as many italian ships as french ships, and crews battling to surrender first.

 

Italians had some very impressive capabilities.  


Naval Special warfare, for example.


Seriously.






That were completely indecisive.


Link Posted: 4/21/2016 7:58:37 PM EDT
Ultra had broken the Italians codes also; one would assume the French as allies would benefit from that intelligence.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 8:00:12 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By Sylvan:
That were completely indecisive.





View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By Sylvan:



Originally Posted By primuspilum:


Originally Posted By Sylvan:

I read a book (holy fuck) about the italian navy in the med during WW2.



Fucking clown shoes.



but I know nothing about the french navy of the time.  I foresee lots of sailing around, the italian air force fucking up and sinking as many italian ships as french ships, and crews battling to surrender first.


 



Italians had some very impressive capabilities.  





Naval Special warfare, for example.





Seriously.




That were completely indecisive.









 



Against the Brits, who completely outclassed them, they still managed to sink some capital ships in the Med.




Against the French under this hypo?  




Not going to win it on their own, but capital ship losses would hurt the French much than the Brits in the same period, for example.
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