Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 10/17/2002 6:47:01 AM EDT
All of this started with the "UN Peace Petition" e-mail hoax someone got in my office. I replied to it in the typical cocky American way:
"WWIII already began on 11 September 2001. The US is just finishing what was started. The UN is powerless to stop what is about to happen. Their ineffectiveness is what got us into this mess to begin with. As I read the names below, I cannot help but notice some list countries that owe their freedom directly to the United States and our citizens sacrificing their lives for them (Starting with France). How quickly they forget."
View Quote
Well this British member of the Pagan Left (Who can't even spell his native country correctly) replied to me in the following way:
"America was not the only country that liberated the French! It was also the Russians, Brittain, and her Commonwealths I.E. Canada, Australia, and India. Least we forget that America came into the war at the very end, as Churchill and Stalin had been fighting on for years. Also the French Resistance was in full force with the allies at the time. America has the misconception that it is the only free country in the world, It is not hence the signatures at the bottom of this page. Learn your history, and the rest of the worlds! Remember America did not help Europe until some one hit Pearl Harbor. Maybe the Europeans should wait until they blow up Brussels."
View Quote
Now I see several misstatements with this starting with "America came into the war at the very end" and the fact that Russia helped to liberate France. From what I remember from history was that Britian didn't commit troops until after the Germans started bombing their cities after Germany had already "blitzkreiged" their way across Europe to the English Channel. Am I wrong here? What I need are dates and REAL facts to blow this guy out of the water and teach him about world history. Can anyone help?
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 7:01:03 AM EDT
October 1935- Italy invades Ethiopea March-1936 Germany sends troops into Rhineland March-1938 Germany annexes Austria September-1938 Munich Pact January-1939 Roosevelt proposes defense budget, US begins rearming March-1939 Germany occupies Czechoslovakia April-1030 Italy invades Albania August 24-1939 Britain and Poland sign mutual assistance pact September 1-1939 Germany invades Poland September 3-1939 Britain and France declare war on Germany August 1940 The Battle of Britain begins December 1941 Pearl Harbor These come from Dirty Little Secrets of WWII, a very good book I hope these help, I had to stop because im late for class, good luck [:)]
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 7:04:39 AM EDT
Don't forget the Lend Lease Act that allowed GB to fight on.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 7:06:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/17/2002 7:14:54 AM EDT by Benjamin0001]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "America was not the only country that liberated the French! It was also the Russians, Brittain, and her Commonwealths I.E. Canada, Australia, and India. Least we forget that America came into the war at the very end, as Churchill and Stalin had been fighting on for years. Also the French Resistance was in full force with the allies at the time. America has the misconception that it is the only free country in the world, It is not hence the signatures at the bottom of this page. Learn your history, and the rest of the worlds! Remember America did not help Europe until some one hit Pearl Harbor. Maybe the Europeans should wait until they blow up Brussels."
View Quote
Well the Russians fought the eastern front and the west fought the western front. The russians helping to win the war is true. But one has to be careful here, because the Russians were still bulsheviks in toto. The Russians were still acting like Russians throughout the war. Murdering their own people, sending their troops wholesale into the German war machine. And the Russians themselves or Soviets were still slaves. Canada, Britain, and India all fought the Reich that is true. This was indeed a world war of emmense porportions. But one thing stands also True, only American industrial might could put 1000-1200 bombers with fighter escort over Germany each and every night from at least late 1943 to mid/late 1945. Churchill himself said something along the lines of , "We held on until those who were half asleep were half ready!", meaning clearly Americans. The French Resistance, Marquette(sp??), were in full force but were small , probably less then 5000 people. The Canadians, well I don't know much about the history of the Canadians in WWII. But the persons assertion that we didn't come in unti the end, well uhhh. That is clearly misleading as we came in force throughout 42. And Normandy wasn't until 44, so clearly it was the Normandy invasion that actually liberated Europe. And that was predominately American. So my advice is push the fight a little, then be a Good Chap and keep up foreign relations. ie, Make a friend.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 7:10:09 AM EDT
We were helping out Btitain economically from the start. We might not of had to step-in and save their bacon, again, if not for appeasers like Britain's Chamberlain.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 7:18:14 AM EDT
He does make a few good points...the Brits did fight hard and the Russians also did contribute greatly to Germany's defeat. However, to say that the US only helped in the end? I wouldn't call getting into the war in 1941 the end...Britain didn't start actually fighting until '40, and we had been supplying them with badly needed weapons through the "lend lease" program before the war even got underway. It seems like his argument holds more weight with regard to WWI... Seriously though, when you tell someone from another proud country such as the UK that all of europe owes their freedom to the US, when so many of their own brave men died fighting for the same cause and so many of their civilians were killed in the carpet bombing of their cities, how do you expect them to react??? I mean, that kind of talk sort of pushes them into a corner and forces them to lash out against the US...How would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot?
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 7:52:54 AM EDT
I don't believe I've ever read anything historical about the French Resistance ever being a significant fighting force....
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 8:36:38 AM EDT
The French Maquis, and the FFI (Force Francais d'Interior) became aggravating to the Germans only just before and after the D Day invasion. The vast majority of the French were either totally passive to the German occupation or active participants in it. The FFI was basically the "in country" end of De Gaulle's Free French forces, while the Maquis were predominantly Socialist and Communist. They only occasionally cooperated with each other.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 8:42:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 8:56:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/17/2002 8:58:24 AM EDT by ken_mays]
Seems to me I recall some American Expeditionary Force sent over there as a token gesture... weren't they part of the Allied troops evacuated at Dunkirk? Oh, and if this fellow really is a leftist, feel free to get his goat by saying, "We Americans were trying to 'give peace a chance'. It was you warmongering Brits who goaded Hitler into a full-blown confrontation." That should be good for a ruptured head gasket.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 9:02:19 AM EDT
"America came into the war at the very end". No shit! Why do you think it ended so soon dumbfuck!
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 11:18:53 AM EDT
I think the case could be made that we saved the Brits ass. The Ruskies on the other hand were begging for us to attack into Europe. The Ruskies did all the heavy lifting in Europe. Where did all the massive ground battles take place? Russia The US did all of the heavy lifting in the Pacific though. If Japan would have listened to Hitler, the war would have been much harder for the allies. The people that won WW2 were Alan Turing and the people in Bletchley Park. They cracked the German code, giving the allies a huge tactical advantage.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 11:40:01 AM EDT
The stupid Brit should be reminded that Great Britain had the opportunity to stop Hitler, but didn't because Chamberlain blinked..... Appeasement of tyrants only fuels their hunger for more.
Link Posted: 10/17/2002 5:13:28 PM EDT
The British did participate in a big way in the air and sea,before we officially entered, as everyone knows. They also sent several thousand troops into Norway in a hasty,too little too late effort to keep the Germans out. They also had an expeditionary force of several hundred thousand men in France(the guys that got out at Dunkirk). But,both Britain and France ,although declaring war on Germany,sat by while the Germans drilled Poland and did nothing but launch a couple a meaningless,token air and land raids.After which there was a "phoney war"of several months in which they did nothing in Europe. Also after the first few weeks of war in France,after the luftwaffe had swept everyone from the sky,The British refused to send anymore air assets into France preferreing to save them for the comming air battle over Britain.This being before the French were defeated,obviously infuriated the Poodles. When it was Germany against Britain,and the U-boats were strangling the Brits,it was a gift of 100+ old American destroyers that allowed Britain to fight with a more effective convoy system. As far as us comming in at the end,thats a bunch of BS.After Dec.7th when Hitler declared war on the US,we obliged him,and it was on. We supplied England and Russia with massive amounts of equipment and England never did anything in Europe until we were ready to lead them there. It started in '42' at the end of the African campaign when the US forces got their feet wet. Although the Brits thought they were more experienced and our troops alittle inferior,they had to step aside and defer to American leadership of overall war strategy because the US was contributing vastly larger amounts of men and material. So we were in the leadership roll(also in men and material) in the invasion of Sicily,Italy and France all the way too Germany. This doesn't even include the daylight bombing campaign over Germany,which the British could not sustain. Make no mistake the British could put 1000 bomber raids together at night,but did not have the resources in pilots and planes to operate escorted during the day. Add the fact that half the possessions targeted and conquered in the Pacific at the beginning of the war were European(the majority British)and we subsequently liberated the entire Pacific alone. It goes without saying that we liberated the world,with others in a supporting roll. Except the Russians of course,but they were double crossed by their allie Hitler after digesting Poland with him.Thats a whole different story.
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 7:11:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2002 7:37:34 AM EDT by FLGreg]
I wanted to post my reply to the e-mail I sent. Thanks to those who made contributions. Nothing burns my breeches more than the uninformed trashing this country. There is no need to reply to it. Just let this thread die a dignified death knowing the honor of the United States of American was defended.
Jack: I forgot that I had sent this home several days ago as I wanted to respond on my personal time. In the interests of international relations and good will, I almost didn't respond. However, some outlandish statements were made and I, as an American, could not let them go unanswered. Perhaps one day we could establish a dialogue to help me understand the utter contempt that some Europeans exhibit toward the United States. First, the e-mail that started all of this has been proven to be a hoax. See these links for details - [url]http://unicwash.org/[/url] and [url]http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl-un-petition.htm[/url] Second, I was a quite offended by your [i]learn your history, and the rest of the worlds!”[/i] comment as I have studied modern warfare for many years and my major course of study at the university was political science. So let me correct some of [i]your[/i] misconceptions, if you are interested: 1. [i]“America was not the only country that liberated the French”[/i] - On it surface this is a true statement as many nations around the world came together as allies to defeat the Germans. But without the American industries, this defeat would not have been possible. No other nation on earth had the resources to put 1000-1200 bombers, with fighter escort, over Germany each and every night from late 1943 to mid 1945. No other nation on earth could have produced, in a very short period of time - 90,000 tanks, over 2,200,000 transport vehicles and 240,000 planes. The British had only 30,000 tanks and they were no match for the German Panzer divisions with some 80,000 armored vehicles. Plain and simple - the United States industrial complex was what broke the back of the Germans. The United States also had the superior troop strength with which to fight the German military machine. The Germans had a total force of more than 18 million and the best that Britain could field were 11 million (6 million from Britain, 1.1 from Canada, 1.3 from Australia and 2.6 from India). The US committed 16 million more troops to the war effort. Although proportionally (as compared to the total population) more troops were used by the non-American allies, the sheer numbers we threw at the Nazi's turned the tide in the war. During the Normandy Invasion from 6 June to mid-September 1944 (the Liberation of France), 29,000 Americans were killed along with 11,000 British and 5,000 Canadian Troops. If you do the math, the Americans suffered almost twice as many casualties as the other allies. So when I made the statement, [i]“countries that owe their freedom directly to the United States and our citizens sacrificing their lives for them (Starting with France)”[/i], the above facts are to what I refer to. 2. Russia had nothing to do with the liberation of France. When Paris was liberated at the end of August 1944, The Red Army troops were 1200 miles away completing the liberation/invasion/occupation/annexation of the city of Bucharest. The Soviet Union fought in the East and worked their way west. The UK and US fought in the West and worked east. These combined forces didn't link up until the fall of Berlin at the very end of the war. Actually, Russia was a "neutral" ally of Germany at the beginning of the war. In fact, to say, [i]“…Stalin had been fighting on for years”[/i] could not be further from the truth. After August 1939, with the signing of the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact, Stalin had been on his own “land grab” with the Red Army also invading part of Poland in September 1939, attacking Finland in December 1939, annexing the Baltic states of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia in July 1940. It was not until Operation Barbarossa, the German invasion of the Soviet Union, in June 1941 that the Red Army began to fight against the Nazis. This was just [u]6 months[/u] before the US got involved in the war. The Red Army’s main contribution to the war effort was tying up German troops on the Eastern Front, forcing the Nazi’s to fight a two front war. The Allies begrudgingly called Russia an ally, as Stalin never missed a beat during the war with his wholesale murder of his own people, annexing the above-mentioned territories and continuing to enslave the Russian and Slavic population with Communism. 3. The French Resistance could hardly be considered and effective force since their members probably never numbered more than 5,000 and were quite disorganized. Although a highly motivated force, the French Maquis, and the FFI (Force Francais d'Interior) became aggravating to the Germans only just before and after the D-Day invasion in 1944. The vast majority of the French were either totally passive to the German occupation or active participants in it. The FFI was basically what was left of De Gaulle's Free French forces, while the Maquis were predominantly Socialist and Communist. They only occasionally cooperated with each other. The French Resistance was best known for helping downed Allied airmen escape and evade capture from the Germans. 4. America’s Participation in the War - [i]“Least we forget that America came into the war at the very end….[/i]” This is perhaps the most outrageous statement you made. WWII in the European Theatre, in my opinion, ran from 15 March 1939 (German invasion of Czechoslovakia) to 4 May 1945 (Germany’s surrender). The US entered the war in earnest on 8 December 1941 when [i]"some one hit Pearl Harbor"[/i]. This was hardly [i]“at the very end”[/i]. Britain didn't officially enter the war until Germany declared war on them on 10 June 1940 and the Battle of Britain started shortly thereafter. Again, mathematics show the time between Britain being attacked and Pearl Harbor was a little under 18 months. Roosevelt knew war was inevitable when Britain was attacked and quietly started to make preparations. The United States started secretly supplying the British war effort in November 1940 when it began to ship American aircraft to north Ireland. When the rest of the US realized that war was inevitable, it took us that long to rebuild after the pacific Democratic majority in Congress had cut the military funding and decimated the ranks after WWI and during the Great Depression. I could explain all of this in much greater detail but I would really bore you. Trust me, the US was involved much earlier than publicly reported or taught in school. Some scholars list the Japanese invasion of Manchuria September 1931 as the true start of World War II. If that is the case, the Fourth Marine Regiment saw action against the Japanese in 1937, three years before the Battle of Britain began. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding about the United States and its involvement in World War II. I stand by my original statements. I know we Americans can appear quite smug about these things. We tend to divide Europe into two classes, [i]"those whose asses we saved and those whose asses we kicked"[/i]. I am sorry that this seems like an over simplification but you know us ignorant Americans - we are so simple.
View Quote
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 10:27:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Magic: for the allies. The people that won WW2 were Alan Turing and the people in Bletchley Park. They cracked the German code, giving the allies a huge tactical advantage.
View Quote
Actually, it was the Poles who cracked the Enigma code. Based on their work the Brits were able to bust subsequent variations.
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 10:43:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FLGreg: Britain didn't officially enter the war until Germany declared war on them on 10 June 1940
View Quote
Great Britain declared war on Germany on 3 Sept. 1939, in response to Hitler's invasion of Poland.
We tend to divide Europe into two classes, [i]"those whose asses we saved and those whose asses we kicked"[/i].
View Quote
I grew up in Germany- that statement is truer than you can imagine, and Europeans don't like to be reminded of it.
Link Posted: 10/21/2002 10:56:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ken_mays: Seems to me I recall some American Expeditionary Force sent over there as a token gesture... weren't they part of the Allied troops evacuated at Dunkirk?
View Quote
I think you have Dunkirk, June 1940, confused with the large scale Allied commando raid on Dieppe, 1942, mostly a British and Canadian show, but 50 US Army rangers also participated. No organised groups of US soldiers fought in the war in Europe prior to that time. But fourteen US citizens did join the King's Royal Rifle Corps of the British Army to fight as infantrymen through recruiting offices in Canada before the US entered the war. (The KRRC had started out in the 18th cent. as the 60th Regt. of Foot, a regiment of the British Army that was allowed to enlist foreigners to fight abroad for the King) There was the famous Eagle Squadron, but the latter only got going as organised units in 1941, well after Dunkirk, and just before the US came into the war.
Oh, and if this fellow really is a leftist, feel free to get his goat by saying, "We Americans were trying to 'give peace a chance'. It was you warmongering Brits who goaded Hitler into a full-blown confrontation." That should be good for a ruptured head gasket.
View Quote
I like it! As my wife's relatives (Scots and Germans) would say, "You are a cheeky bastard! [:D]"
Top Top