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Posted: 9/19/2011 12:35:27 PM EST
We know they are the suck financially and they are going to fail.

So why all this crap on wall street?

It kills me that everytime something bad about Greece is published the market tanks.

The greek thing should have been factored in long ago.

I think its over 8 times now they at greece has fuckup the market.

ridiculous.

The only other thing I can think of is that there are people making a ton of money on greece and are enjoying this.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 12:39:19 PM EST
Because Greece, their debt and their inability/unwillingness to do what they must to address it may be what cracks the Euro zone.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 12:39:20 PM EST
First greece, then Spain, then Portugal, then Italy, etc, That is the concern, if I remember correctly.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 12:41:17 PM EST
If Greece were to fail, well, there would go the world's supply of feta, olives, and baklava. Is that something you are willing to live with OP??
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 12:41:18 PM EST
Because they cooked the books to begin with, took the French's and German's money, and spent it on "free shit for everyone!", a 3rd world national army for 1st rate price, and marbled streets in Athens!
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 12:41:50 PM EST
It matters because the Greeks are nicer than the French.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 12:43:21 PM EST
CDS.

Credit Default Swap.

The fact is, the rest of the world has spent a ton propping them up.

Like us, they spend more on parasites than producers can create.

When the banks back these folks up, they sell CDS as a hedge.

When Greece goes tits up, it will create a cascading credit collapse.

That will hurt everyone.

EVERYTHING you buy, comes on credit at some point in time. Walmart gets credit from it's supplier, to pay after they sell it. The food at the grocery, came on credit, the cars on the lot, same thing.

When greece fails, it will signal the end of extend and pretend.

It will be ugly, because all of these banks, including ours, are tied together with derivatives and CDS.

This would be why when Germany said no more, and a week later, they were educated on the amount of power that banks now have. From lending and buying bonds or treasuries, the .govs are in so much debt to them, a simple thing like raising the interest rates could KILL the economy.

And despite what folks think, we are way better off than Argentina was a decade ago.

But, toss in a cascading credit collapse, and all bets are off.

TXL
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 12:43:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 12:45:01 PM EST by fistpoint]
If(when) Greece tanks financially, wouldn't that negatively effect the Euro and in turn help the Dollar regain some ground it has lost to it?
.
.
.
Looks like the reply directly below me answers my question
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 12:44:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 12:45:26 PM EST by POLYTHENEPAM]
Thumb nail sketch:
Greece owes money to Euro banks.
Euro banks owe money to US banks.
Greece defaults, Euro banks go bust. US banks don't get paid.

The Fed is going to create billions of new dollars and provide them to the Euro banks to pay their debts to US banks.
The Euro banks and US banks are saved. The speculators on Wall Street are saved. The only people who lose are the American citizens who take it in the ass due to the increase in the money supply and the resulting increase in the general price level.
In other words, situation normal.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 12:44:11 PM EST
Lots of US companies have assets/money in Greece. These money/bonds/loans can't be pulled out. Also if Greece fail the Euro and EU might go with it
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 12:45:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By marcushire:
If Greece were to fail, well, there would go the world's supply of feta, olives, and baklava. Is that something you are willing to live with OP??


You forgot anal sex.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 12:47:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By Strykewolf:
First greece, then Spain, then Portugal, then Italy, etc, That is the concern, if I remember correctly.

Spain probably the last PIIGS country to fail. The market is expecting Italy to be next. I have money on Italy not defaulting this year.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 12:48:11 PM EST
All of our banks own securities that lead back to their banks, CDO's are over 100 Trillion IIRC, that's enough to melt the financial world several times over.

Basically imagine you can take out unlimited insurance policies on your vehicle. Also, other people can take out unlimited policies on your vehicle as well.

When you wreck it and it's payout amount is 10 grand, no biggie.

When you wreck it and it's payout amount is 10 grand, plus the 700 other policy holders? PLUS you can buy insurance on your insurance. (Think AIG)

So..it doesn't take long to see the exponential debt growth that was allowed to happen.

If Greece defaults, basically the entire industrialized world take a swift kick in the nuts, AND there is a list about 20 deep of countries that can't even resist a thump on the nose, let alone a well placed groin shot.

But hey, it's cool. Leaders everywhere will raise taxes, inflate, and blame the rich until people start burning shit down and refusing to pay taxes.

Feel better?
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 12:49:09 PM EST
The problem is that Greece can't print money like we can. Their currency is the Euro. So they have no worst-case solution that doesn't bring down the entire eurozone.

Thus, their fate is directly tied to Germany, France, etc. And our market has trillions of dollars tied up in bonds, credit default swaps, real estate, businesses, and whatever else that's dependent on eurozone stability.

It's not like a distant cousin going broke, it's like finding out that your business partner has been cooking the books.

So it's a very serious problem.

And it can't be priced in to our markets, because the highest possible price is a complete market collapse.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:05:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Because Greece, their debt and their inability/unwillingness to do what they must to address it may be what cracks the Euro zone.
you are joking right?

Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:07:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By California_Kid:
It matters because the Greeks are nicer than the French.


And Greek chicks are way hotter that French chicks.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:08:50 PM EST
It reeducees friction.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:14:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Because Greece, their debt and their inability/unwillingness to do what they must to address it may be what cracks the Euro zone.


Or starts the domino effect.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:16:54 PM EST
It only takes one card to fall for the house to collapse.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:17:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By Backwoodz:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Because Greece, their debt and their inability/unwillingness to do what they must to address it may be what cracks the Euro zone.
you are joking right?



Greece can't inflate their money supply to get out of the crisis, because they use the Euro.

The Germans have been bailing them out. But the Germans don't want to pay for the welfare nations any more. And the other PIIGS would also expect bailouts.

At some point this has to crack up the EU. The bailouts didn't work, just postponed and amplified the problem.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:18:36 PM EST
Shit, look around.

All of europe is in financial ruin, either because they gave away the farm, or they lent to a country that gave away the farm.

We are next, the early retirements of .gov union folks, un-funded retirements, and entitlements are going to be the ruin of all of us.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:25:36 PM EST
Baaah! It's all greek to me!!
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:31:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By dex357:
Shit, look around.

All of europe is in financial ruin, either because they gave away the farm, or they lent to a country that gave away the farm.

We are next, the early retirements of .gov union folks, un-funded retirements, and entitlements are going to be the ruin of all of us.


America always does things differently. We DO NOT follow in the footsteps of Europeans. I have a feeling it will get downright ugly here, this may be a good thing.

Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:41:32 PM EST
mutually assured economic destruction
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:43:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:47:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 1:49:32 PM EST by 74HC]
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Because Greece, their debt and their inability/unwillingness to do what they must to address it may be what cracks the Euro zone.


Euro zone is a fiat money cartel and cartels usually do not last. That is not what the White House and other liberals are concerned about. Majority of the governments who organized the cartel are governed by liberal, socialistic democratic ideals. Our liberals over here can not stand to see that fail.

Let Greece fail as it does not impact our economy like our top traders do. The cartel will fail, Europe will turn more towards capitalism, trade barriers that the Euro zone creates falls, so do taxes and carbon trading credits.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:49:32 PM EST
I recently spoke with a Greek expat (now a citizen) who has a rather unique outlook on this thing...

He says that while he doesn't like seeing it, they deserve to go under because EVERYBODY is aware that they demand unreasonable services and EVERYBODY actively engages in tax avoidance/evasion. This activity being both legal, by booting any politician that even thinks about increasing revenue to pay for expenditures, and active scamming of the current tax code.



Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:51:21 PM EST
Surprise Molon Labe rough men buttseckz.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:54:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
I recently spoke with a Greek expat (now a citizen) who has a rather unique outlook on this thing...

He says that while he doesn't like seeing it, they deserve to go under because EVERYBODY is aware that they demand unreasonable services and EVERYBODY actively engages in tax avoidance/evasion. This activity being both legal, by booting any politician that even thinks about increasing revenue to pay for expenditures, and active scamming of the current tax code.




Once source put that only 1/3 of government money is collect. Personal checks get written to collectors. When I went to Greece, everything was government subsidized. Biggest plate of food was 2 Euros (2003) and a big 3 liter bottle of purified water was .50 Euros. Even booze was cheaper there because shipping was pretty much 100% subsidized, AFTER a major VAT tax.

Everything was "free" or "subsidized" and very few actually paid. Even an apartment in Athens, which could go for a grand a month was only a few hundred Euros.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 1:55:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By m23shooter:
We know they are the suck financially and they are going to fail.

So why all this crap on wall street?

It kills me that everytime something bad about Greece is published the market tanks.

The greek thing should have been factored in long ago.

I think its over 8 times now they at greece has fuckup the market.

ridiculous.

The only other thing I can think of is that there are people making a ton of money on greece and are enjoying this.


Ding ding ding. There are lots of folks that are always betting on the sidelines just like a football game. Only thing is they don't care about the team, only that the ball gets moved.

Link Posted: 9/19/2011 2:01:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 2:02:29 PM EST by callgood]
This thread is making me hungry............



Link Posted: 9/19/2011 2:21:24 PM EST
4 months or so a Default will occur.
They should of never been allowed into the EU, but thanks to the Goldman Guys their books were cooked so they could become a member.
They aren't the only country and the truth is being exposed; they are the small potato.

The 'United States of Europe' will fail, and guess what Reserve Currency they are holding...US Dollars.

The World can't afford to de-peg from OUR Dollar.
Weak Dollar = Inflation for US
Weak Dollar = Hyper-Inflation for the rest of the World
Why WE are 'hated'...It's always about the almighty Dollar, in my opinion.
When they try, a war will break out to 'Reset' Relations....or something like that
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 2:39:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By N1Rampage:
Because they cooked the books to begin with, took the French's and German's money, and spent it on "free shit for everyone!", a 3rd world national army for 1st rate price, and marbled streets in Athens!


I'm glad to see that someone on this board knows the full story! The EU should have dropped Greece soon as they discovered the Greek conservative government (yes it was the conservatives) at the time was cooking the books. And compared to the Western European countries, the Greek government is totally fucked up. Sorry, but I get tired of the ignorance of European politics many people here have. If you're going to bitch, do it right.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 2:44:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By hp6:
Originally Posted By N1Rampage:
Because they cooked the books to begin with, took the French's and German's money, and spent it on "free shit for everyone!", a 3rd world national army for 1st rate price, and marbled streets in Athens!

I'm glad to see that someone on this board knows the full story! The EU should have dropped Greece soon as they discovered the Greek conservative government (yes it was the conservatives) at the time was cooking the books. And compared to the Western European countries, the Greek government is totally fucked up. Sorry, but I get tired of the ignorance of European politics many people here have. If you're going to bitch, do it right.

The question wasn't whether Greece is a fucked up place, the question was why we should care.

And the answer to that isn't that Greece is a fucked up place, but that there are financial ties in place that make Greece the first domino in a long chain that ends at our doorstep.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 2:49:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 2:49:44 PM EST by fr4th0]
Let's call Greece a domino.

Now, much like real dominos, you have one by itself? Meh, so the fuck what, NOT important, right?


However... Greece would most defintely be the FIRST domino in the chain of almost ALL dominos (read: COUNTRIES) of the world. Does it me when Greece falls, so does the ENTIRE world?


Maybe. Maybe not.


The problem is, we don't KNOW if the US can pull out a domino from the middle to make it stop before it hits us. No one can know that until it all happens.

That is why you see SO much shit going on over Greece - because they most certainly CAN be the first domino when they default - and make no mistake, they WILL default; it's just a matter of when. I have no doubt they'll have another sticksave or three and keep the game going a while longer. But, again - it will go on until it can't, and no one knows when that point will be.


ETA: Oh, by the way.... what else has started in that area, say, twice in the last century, almost to the year? Yeah, those - they start with a WW.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 2:53:34 PM EST
It's all a house of cards.

They need to start tumbling already. This is so pathetic it is embarrassing.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 2:54:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 2:59:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By JBlitzen:

The question wasn't whether Greece is a fucked up place, the question was why we should care.


Because a lot of French, German, and US banks own a lot of Greek sovereign debt. When the Greeks default, that debt becomes close to worthless, and those banks either collapse, requiring taxpayer bailouts; or they require taxpayer bailouts to remain afloat.

A Greek default will start a row of dominoes that will collapse the Eurozone, and that will unhinge the world financial markets.

Please note, I am not arguing for a Greek bailout, because it won't work... it'll throw good money after bad (again). The world financial system needs to collapse, because it's balanced on a mountain of uncollectable debt. But that doesn't mean that the collapse will be nice and orderly and safe and comfortable.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 3:01:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By hp6:
Originally Posted By N1Rampage:
Because they cooked the books to begin with, took the French's and German's money, and spent it on "free shit for everyone!", a 3rd world national army for 1st rate price, and marbled streets in Athens!


I'm glad to see that someone on this board knows the full story! The EU should have dropped Greece soon as they discovered the Greek conservative government (yes it was the conservatives) at the time was cooking the books. And compared to the Western European countries, the Greek government is totally fucked up. Sorry, but I get tired of the ignorance of European politics many people here have. If you're going to bitch, do it right.


All of the PIIGS cooked the books before Euro integration. They all lied and committed fraud to get into the Eurozone, and once they were in, everyone else helped them to lie and commit fraud to "maintain the integrity" of the EU. They're simply reaping what they've sown, in spades.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 3:03:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By hp6:
Originally Posted By N1Rampage:
Because they cooked the books to begin with, took the French's and German's money, and spent it on "free shit for everyone!", a 3rd world national army for 1st rate price, and marbled streets in Athens!


I'm glad to see that someone on this board knows the full story! The EU should have dropped Greece soon as they discovered the Greek conservative government (yes it was the conservatives) at the time was cooking the books. And compared to the Western European countries, the Greek government is totally fucked up. Sorry, but I get tired of the ignorance of European politics many people here have. If you're going to bitch, do it right.


I don't think you are correct. Greece joined the EU in 2000. In 2004 the New Democracy party (the conservatives) took over and commissioned an audit that showed that the books were cooked so they could join the EU.

Link Posted: 9/19/2011 3:20:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By hp6:
Originally Posted By N1Rampage:
Because they cooked the books to begin with, took the French's and German's money, and spent it on "free shit for everyone!", a 3rd world national army for 1st rate price, and marbled streets in Athens!


I'm glad to see that someone on this board knows the full story! The EU should have dropped Greece soon as they discovered the Greek conservative government (yes it was the conservatives) at the time was cooking the books. And compared to the Western European countries, the Greek government is totally fucked up. Sorry, but I get tired of the ignorance of European politics many people here have. If you're going to bitch, do it right.


I don't think you are correct. Greece joined the EU in 2000. In 2004 the New Democracy party (the conservatives) took over and commissioned an audit that showed that the books were cooked so they could join the EU.

They are 'Conservative' Socialists, which equates to Socialism Lite...if there's such a thing.

Link Posted: 9/19/2011 3:23:56 PM EST


Italy just got downgraded a notch; negative outlook.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 3:24:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 3:24:52 PM EST by DonS]
Originally Posted By glockO:

Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By hp6:
Originally Posted By N1Rampage:
Because they cooked the books to begin with, took the French's and German's money, and spent it on "free shit for everyone!", a 3rd world national army for 1st rate price, and marbled streets in Athens!


I'm glad to see that someone on this board knows the full story! The EU should have dropped Greece soon as they discovered the Greek conservative government (yes it was the conservatives) at the time was cooking the books. And compared to the Western European countries, the Greek government is totally fucked up. Sorry, but I get tired of the ignorance of European politics many people here have. If you're going to bitch, do it right.


I don't think you are correct. Greece joined the EU in 2000. In 2004 the New Democracy party (the conservatives) took over and commissioned an audit that showed that the books were cooked so they could join the EU.

They are 'Conservative' Socialists, which equates to Socialism Lite...if there's such a thing.



Yes, I realize that their right is far on our left. However, it does not seem that it was their right party that cooked the books. I don't believe their right party was in charge when they joined the EU in 2000, however the right party exposed the book cooking later (in 2004).
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 4:20:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By glockO:

Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By hp6:
Originally Posted By N1Rampage:
Because they cooked the books to begin with, took the French's and German's money, and spent it on "free shit for everyone!", a 3rd world national army for 1st rate price, and marbled streets in Athens!


I'm glad to see that someone on this board knows the full story! The EU should have dropped Greece soon as they discovered the Greek conservative government (yes it was the conservatives) at the time was cooking the books. And compared to the Western European countries, the Greek government is totally fucked up. Sorry, but I get tired of the ignorance of European politics many people here have. If you're going to bitch, do it right.


I don't think you are correct. Greece joined the EU in 2000. In 2004 the New Democracy party (the conservatives) took over and commissioned an audit that showed that the books were cooked so they could join the EU.

They are 'Conservative' Socialists, which equates to Socialism Lite...if there's such a thing.



Yes, I realize that their right is far on our left. However, it does not seem that it was their right party that cooked the books. I don't believe their right party was in charge when they joined the EU in 2000, however the right party exposed the book cooking later (in 2004).

Goldman Sachs in new storm over secret deal to mask Greek debts ...


Goldman Guys are like Roaches doing 'God's work'.....ask Treasury Sec. Timmie G. and Crew

They could no longer cover up the fraud...It's not a Crisis when you can dictate the outcome.

Link Posted: 9/19/2011 4:39:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 4:40:36 PM EST by Loki41872]

NVM
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 4:53:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By SIPCAT-C:
It's all a house of cards.

They need to start tumbling already. This is so pathetic it is embarrassing.


Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 4:57:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Because Greece, their debt and their inability/unwillingness to do what they must to address it may be what cracks the Euro zone.


Throw in the U.S. banks that underwrote those European bank loans to Greece. The entire financial world has been intertwined in ways we've yet to fathom. When Greece goes, not only do some European banks go, but so do some U.S. banks.

Actually, that's a good thing. F*ck globalization and the EU. Time for the party to break up. The Germans, like the French and the Italians, have their own divisions among themselves. Then to throw all the nations together results in a mess that didn't work. All the thieves found easier pickings and found new victims. In some cases the immmigrants were seeking employment but among there was a large # of thieves.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:16:12 PM EST
In addition to the domino affect on large parts of Europe, there is another factor. Some one commented on the Euro going bad is good for the dollar, unfortunately that is wrong. Why? The IMF, the fact that the US is the largest contributor and that Geitners plan is to print dollars to buy euros to save Europe.

Welcome to the down side of a global economy.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:23:50 PM EST
G, S, P , Italy, France, Germany........

Greece is a cork.
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:33:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/19/2011 5:37:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By paddymurphy:
In addition to the domino affect on large parts of Europe, there is another factor. Some one commented on the Euro going bad is good for the dollar, unfortunately that is wrong. Why? The IMF, the fact that the US is the largest contributor and that Geitners plan is to print dollars to buy euros to save Europe.

Welcome to the down side of a global economy.

When the Europeans run on their banks they won't want Euros or Gold...they'll want the US Dollar.

As the Dollar strengthens, commodities fall...

OUR Dollar still is the World's 'Gold Standard'

Things are bad here, but will be much worse around the Globe.
We just need new Leadership in this country, to begin the 'reset', and hopefully prevent the next World War
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