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Posted: 1/15/2002 4:43:08 AM EDT
I tire of some painting the whole of the Israeli gov't as some kind of "lily white" persecuted group of wonderful people who are completely innocent in the last 2,000+ years of the Arab - Isreali war. So I give you this, from the front page of todays' WSJ, above the fold [i]A Palestianin militia leader was killed by a bomb in teh West Bank. Israel refused to deny a role, and in fact had tried to kill the man before." [/i] Soooooo.... I'm SURE to hear you guys SEVERLY CONDEMN Isreal for this act of terrorism, JUST LIKE you criticize the Palestinain disco bombers, right???? I ain't holding my breath. [b]I'm QUITE SURE all kinds of excuses will pour out from some of you. And NONE of the usual Israel supporters 'round here will simply post an "I condemn Isreal" post here without some kind of excuse making for them. Frankly, I dare you.[/b] Do I favor the Arabs over the Isrealis?? (allegations of this are SURE to litter this thread) NO, I do not. My whole point is that NEITHER the Arabs or the Israelis as political entities are worthy of my admiration or friendship. Or my country's. [b]The simple fact is that NONE OF YOU would allow any individual who is personally responsible for the atrocities that these Arabs AND Isrealis are guilty of, into your home. NOT ONE OF YOU.[/b]
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 4:49:29 AM EDT
I thought it was God's position to Judge. My mistake.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 4:57:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2002 5:00:00 AM EDT by cerberus]
garandman, I'll bite... Usually I agree with you on most points, but in this case we'll part ways. Surely both the Israelis and Arabs have enough blood on their collective hands to fuel the fires for the next thousand generations. The enmity between these people runs too deep to ever be smoothed over, and even the Bible says that this land will not know peace. Yet... The Palestinians are clearly the agressors in the current situation. They willfully target and attack Israeli civilians for purposes of terror. The Israeli responses, while brutal, are reasonable and legitimate acts of self defense and self preservation. The fact that the Israeli's demonstrate at least some restraint by going after selected "military" targets is commendable. By attacking civilians in ways deliberately intended to outrage Israeli citizens, the Palestinians are trying to goad Israel into making a mistake. They want Israel to overreact and attempt to "solve" the Palestinian "problem" once and for all. Then they can claim to be victims and bring world condemnation on Israel. I am certainly no defender of Israel, but you have to ask yourself this question: If the Palestinians suddenly stopped their terror attacks, disbanded Hammas and settled down peacefully, would Israel continue to attack them? The answer is "No". The Israelis aren't stupid, they want peace as much as anyone else. Sure, they want it on their terms, and as long as the Palestinians keep acting up, they are likely to get it that way. If the terror stopped, so would the Israelis. In the face of world opinion and the US checkbook, it would be the wise choice, and one they would much prefer over the current trouble.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:04:17 AM EDT
cerberus right on the mark.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:05:16 AM EDT
Israelis target militant Hamas member. Palestinians respond by targeting random women and children. Israelis then kill Hezbollah suicide bomb mastermind. Palestinians respond by ambushing busload of commuters. I'm confused. How is targeting an individual, terrorism? Let alone targeting an individual who claims to be at war with Israel. Terrorism? [i]Please.[/i] Terrorists pick targets at random, you know, to terrorize the innocent masses. The moral relativism you are attempting here is beneath you. What's next? Equating our bombing of Afghanistan with the WTC attacks? I expect better from you garandman.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:06:31 AM EDT
Cerebrus - So, two wrongs DO INDEED make a right???? The Isrealis [size=6] EXECUTED[/size=6] this paletinian with a bomb. No trial, no accusers, no defense attorney. How is this NOT a terrorist act by the isrealis??? State sponsored terrorism at that???? I'm not trying to address the whole of Arab - Israeli history, I'm talking about this SINGULAR act of violence and murder by the Isrealis. Don't misdirect the discussion. The discussion is [size=6] ONLY [/size=6] this SINGUALR act of terrorism, NOTHING ELSE.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:11:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: Israelis target militant Hamas member. Palestinians respond by targeting random women and children. The moral relativism you are attempting here is beneath you. What's next? Equating our bombing of Afghanistan with the WTC attacks? I expect better from you garandman.
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Those housewives and "children' are provided gov't issue M-16's. They ARE de facto Isreali soldiers. And AGAIN you COMPLETELY ignore the main point of my thread opener - the EXECUTION of a paletinian with a bomb thru Isreali state sponsored terrorism. I'm NOT making excuses for anyone. I'm saying they (Arabs and Isrealis) are ALL dirty rats. The supposition that the Isrealis are "less dirty" is irrelevant. They are STILL dirty. I wouldn't let them into my home, and I'm tired of them getting US tax dolalrs.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:13:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Cerebrus - So, two wrongs DO INDEED make a right???? The Isrealis [size=6] EXECUTED[/size=6] this paletinian with a bomb. No trial, no accusers, no defense attorney. How is this NOT a terrorist act by the isrealis??? State sponsored terrorism at that???? I'm not trying to address the whole of Arab - Israeli history, I'm talking about this SINGULAR act of violence and murder by the Isrealis. Don't misdirect the discussion. The discussion is [size=6] ONLY [/size=6] this SINGUALR act of terrorism, NOTHING ELSE.
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Just [size=10]HOW[/SIZE=10] do you seriously expect to discuss a single event like this while not discussing the context it is a part of. The Israelis didn't pick a random guy off the street to blow up. This is an assassination. Debate the validity of assasination if you must. Equating this to random carbombings is just [size=10]STUPID[/SIZE=10]. wE LOVE BIG LETTERS.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:14:32 AM EDT
"HUH?" Let me repeat myself, "HUH?" There, that's a lot clearer...I don't think I've ever heard anyone call the Israeli's "Lilly White", Blacks are the only people who use this PC epithet (although "Coal Black" is unacceptable-go figure), anyway, I pretty much hear this ranting from Jesse "Hymietown" Jackson, and Louis "Jew Devil" Farrakhan than any press I've ever seen. Most Israeli's wouldn't be classified as all that "lilly white" anyway, more Eastern European and various ethnic groups. But the bigger picture, are the Israeli's our friends? No way, no how. They spy on us all they can, sell weapons to our enemies (Red China), have attacked and killed US Sailors (USS Liberty) and even supported the Iranian's when they were holding our people hostages (they contracted to keep their aircraft running, provdided maintenance for their weapons etc. These are not our "buds". The Palestinian's, please, talk about a bunch of third-world "patsies". The Arabs use em' for cannon fodder and newspaper clipping victims. Jordan was "created" by the same agreement as Israel and Palestine...but Jordan always fomented problems by using the Palestinian's to fight their battles. The entire area may eventually wind up flat and glowing...it's a pity we throw so much of our money at both of them (especially Israel)...but our politicians are very "gelt ridden" (it's a pun on the Yiddish word, "gelt") and are still afraid of being labled, "Anti-Semetic" or "What are you, a Nazi?!"
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:14:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Cerebrus - So, two wrongs DO INDEED make a right???? The Isrealis [size=6] EXECUTED[/size=6] this paletinian with a bomb. No trial, no accusers, no defense attorney. How is this NOT a terrorist act by the isrealis??? State sponsored terrorism at that???? I'm not trying to address the whole of Arab - Israeli history, I'm talking about this SINGULAR act of violence and murder by the Isrealis. Don't misdirect the discussion. The discussion is [size=6] ONLY [/size=6] this SINGUALR act of terrorism, NOTHING ELSE.
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Just HOW do you seriously expect to discuss a single event like this while not discussing the context it is a part of. The Israelis didn't pick a random guy off the street to blow up. This is an assassination. Debate the validity of assasination if you must. Equating this to random carbombings is just STUPID. wE LOVE BIG LETTERS.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:17:55 AM EDT
Garandman, You are wrong on this issue. Cerberus is correct. I believe that if you were to look carefully you would find that the ratio of armed citizens, Palestinian to Israeli, you would find that the arabs are far more armed. Look at the news footage. No, the Israeli's are not angels, but I would take their brand of reasoned, targeted response over the random who cares who is killed terrorism of the arabs.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:21:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Spearweasel: The Israelis didn't pick a random guy off the street to blow up. This is an assassination. Debate the validity of assasination if you must. .
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I'm TRYING to debate the validity of that assassination. I'm hoping SOME of you can debate it in the context of "what if it was your father / brother that the Israelis just assassinated?" I also hope we can discuss it WITHOUT some of y'all accusing me of supporting the WTC attacks. Do I hope for too much???? Prolly do.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:23:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Those housewives and "children' are provided gov't issue M-16's. They ARE de facto Isreali soldiers.
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So all Israeli civilians are combatants because they have gun laws that YOU would support in this country? Does exercising one's 2nd Amndnt rights render one a combatant? [whacko]
And AGAIN you COMPLETELY ignore the main point of my thread opener - the EXECUTION of a palestinian with a bomb thru Isreali state sponsored terrorism.
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They are at war. Targeting the enemy OUTSIDE of the borders of their nation. When they catch them in Israel, they get a trial. How is this terrorism?
I'm NOT making excuses for anyone. I'm saying they (Arabs and Isrealis) are ALL dirty rats. The supposition that the Isrealis are "less dirty" is irrelevant.
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Never have I heard a more concise definition of "moral relativism". As I said before, What's next? Equating our bombing of Afghanistan with the WTC attacks?
They are STILL dirty. I wouldn't let them into my home, and I'm tired of them getting US tax dolalrs.
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So, you wouldn't let "them" into your home, huh? Nice.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:26:18 AM EDT
The Palestinians are not our friends. They do what they, erroneously, think is best for themselves. The Israelis are not really our friends. They do what they think is best for themselves. What they do to each other is their own affair. No US foreign aid $$$ for any of them. The only US money that should be flowing into that area should be on a quid pro quo basis, e.g. to purchase oil from whomever is selling it most cheaply.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:28:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: I'm hoping SOME of you can debate it in the context of "what if it was your father / brother that the Israelis just assassinated?"
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If my father/brother was a militant member of Hamas, or a bombmaker for Hezbollah, I'd think that getting targeted by the Israelis was par. I wouldn't complain about it. It would disgrace their memories and their cause.
I also hope we can discuss it WITHOUT some of y'all accusing me of supporting the WTC attacks.
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No one's accused you of this.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:29:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy:
Originally Posted By garandman: Those housewives and "children' are provided gov't issue M-16's. They ARE de facto Isreali soldiers.
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So all Israeli civilians are combatants because they have gun laws that YOU would support in this country? Does exercising one's 2nd Amndnt rights render one a combatant? [whacko]
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This SINGLE quote illustrates your inability to comprehend and discuss on this issue, major. I said [size=6] GOV'T ISSUE [/size=6] M-16's. I don't beleive I have EVER advocated gov't issue M-16's in this country. The 2nd Amend DOES NOT guarantee me a right to a gov't issued gun. ONLY soldiers receive gov't issue firearms and gov't supplied training in how to use them. the Isrealis are combatants becuase they are armed and trained by teh gov't. In the US the civilains buy their OWN guns and provide their OWN training. That is why we call them civilains. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:39:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Golgo-13: The Palestinians are not our friends. They do what they, erroneously, think is best for themselves. The Israelis are not really our friends. They do what they think is best for themselves. What they do to each other is their own affair. No US foreign aid $$$ for any of them. The only US money that should be flowing into that area should be on a quid pro quo basis, e.g. to purchase oil from whomever is selling it most cheaply.
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Hold all calls - we have a winner. Bullseye.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:41:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2002 5:48:45 AM EDT by Major-Murphy]
Right back at you, garandman. Where ever did you hear that the Israeli Gov't is "issuing" M16s to "housewives and children"? Doesn't happen. Never did. How does the fact that an Israeli teenager's father has an M16 at Home, make said teenager a valid military target while, UNARMED,and eating a slice at Sbarros? If terrorists blew up an offbase bar, killing servicemembers who are on liberty, would that be a valid military target? How about their dates?
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:49:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2002 5:51:22 AM EDT by cerberus]
G'man, must we quibble over mere words? You use the term "execution" and allude to the idea that an arrest and trial would have been more in order for this individual. Were he a simple criminal, I moght agree with you. He is not a criminal. By their own words and actions, the Palestinian militants are [i][b]combatants[/i][/b] not [i][b]criminals[/i][/b]. They consider themselves to be at war with Israel. Therefore, they should, and must be, treated as such. In a war situation, you do not try to apprehend your enemy, you try to kill him. The sole purpose of making war is to destroy your enemy's ability to make war against you. To the extent that this involves targeting and eliminating their leadership, you do so. Sniper are trained to shoot the guy who is shouting and pointing. Intellegence gathering attempts to locate and degrade communications and leadership ability. Here's an example from our own history in wartime: [url]http://www.enter.net/~rocketeer/13thyamr.html[/url] In April 1943, acting on intelligence intercepts, American fighter planes ambushed and killed Japanese Admiral Yamamoto, the architect of Pearl Harbor and Japan's greatest strategist. His death was instrumental in degrading Japan's ability to make war. Was this assasination? Yes. Was it called for? Absolutely. Was it a legitimate act of war? No question about it, it was. Please do not try and equate these Palestinian combatants with mere criminals. You will recall in the early '80s that Israel held many terrorist in their jails, and their release was the goal of many a terrorist action or threatened action. In timesof awar, a nation does what it must to preserve itself. Peace affords the luxury of debate, war demands swift and appropriate action.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:50:27 AM EDT
Quote from article:
"A Palestianin militia leader was killed by a bomb in the West Bank. Israel refused to deny a role, and in fact had tried to kill the man before."
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Now, just change two items in that quote and see what impact this might have on you: [size=3][b]Osama Bin Laden was killed by a bomb in the West Bank. The United States refused to deny a role, and in fact had tried to kill the man before.[/b][/size=3] Anyone object to [u]that[/u] headline? So as long as the man killed is OUR terrorist then such activity is to be applauded. If it's Israel's terrorist, then it's not! God forgive you, garandman![:D] Eric The(IHope)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:51:50 AM EDT
But, but the Israelis are JEWS!!
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:52:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: Right back at you, garandman. Where ever did you hear that the Israeli Gov't is "issuing" M16s to "housewives and children"? Doesn't happen. Never did.
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It is common knowledge that the isreali gov't issues M-16's to housewives, school teachers, and teenagers and trains them how to use them. The pics have been in this forum. Ask ANYONE.
How does the fact that an Israeli teenager's father has an M16 at Home, make said teenager a valid military target while, UNARMED,and eating a slice at Sbarros? If terrorists blew up an offbase bar, killing servicemembers who are on liberty, would that be a valid military target? How about their dates?
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I have NEVER said they were valid military targets. EVER. Can the red herrrings. It goes without saying that the palestinians are dirtbags. It is your moral relativism that since the Isrealis are not AS dirty as the Palestinians that we should side with them that is disturbing.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:00:27 AM EDT
[b]Major_Murphy and Cerberus[/b] are right. Garandman, you're on the wrong side of this one, sorry. It's WAR over there. You're beginning to sound like the Berkeley crowd wanting Israelis to arrest these terrorists and put them on trial. It's WAR over there. Shoot to kill when you get the chance, 'cause you may not get another chance. It's WAR over there.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:01:21 AM EDT
Is this the guy you're talking about here???? El-Karmi was reported to be in jail by PA officials, but it appears this was not the case. He was killed in an explosion near his home. PA officials are blaming the IDF but official government sources deny any connection to the death. Senior officials stated it was most likely that the master terrorist was killed while preparing a bomb. Karmi was born in 1974 and a resident of PA-controlled Tul Karem. In media interviews, Karmi had made it clear that he was determined to continue terrorist attacks against Israel and that he wanted to expand them. In a CNN interview on August 23, 2001, Karmi stated firmly: “We train the teenagers to carry out terrorist attacks inside Israeli territory…We train 17 and 18-year-olds to attack settlers, kidnap soldiers from inside Israel.” In other interviews, he also described his involvement in the kidnapping and murder of two Israeli restaurateurs in Tul Karem in January 2001, Mordehai Dayan and his partner Etgar Zeitouny. They were taken out of the Abu Nidal Restaurant at gunpoint, and murdered by gunshots to their heads at pointblank range. Karmi acted directly under Marwan Barghouti, head of the Tanzim in Judea and Samaria and was under his direct supervision. Karmi perpetrated many terrorist attacks, including: 1. Numerous shooting attacks on IDF and Border Police bases in the Tul Karem area; 2. October 20, 2000 – Shooting attack on a bus of IDF Golani Brigade soldiers that mistakenly entered an Area A, under PA autonomous control; 3. December 7, 2000 - Shot at an Israeli vehicle near the village of Burke, seriously wounding two soldiers and a civilian. 4. January 23, 2001 – The murders of Mordehai Dayan, 27, and his partner Etgar Zeitouny. 5.May 31, 2001 – The murder of Tzvi Shalef, 63, in Baka el-Sharkiya. 6. June 18, 2001 – The murder of Danny Yehuda, 35, on the Shomron road between Chomesh and Shavei Shomron. 7. July 4, 2001 – The murder of Eliyahu Ne’eman, 36, near Baka el-Garbiye. 8. July 30, 2001 – A shooting attack that left three border policemen wounded, some seriously. 9. August 28, 2001 – The murder of Dov Rozman, 58, near Baka el-Garbiye. 10. September 6, 2001 – The murder of IDF Lt. Erez Merhavi, 21, between Kibbutz Bahan and Erez, not far from Baka el-Garbiye. 11. September 19, 2001 – Shooting attack directed at a taxi near Shavei Shomron that left three persons wounded. 12. September 28, 2001 – The attempt to infiltrate two suicide terrorists into Israel. 13. October 5, 2001 – The murder of Chananya Ben-Avraham, 45, near Avnei Chafetz. 14. October 28, 2001 – The murder of IDF Sergeant Yaniv Levy near Kibbutz Metzer. 15. October 29, 2001 – The attempted bombing attack in the Ra’anana home of naval Colonel Nathan Barak. 16. – December 15, 2001 - An abortive suicide attack in which the explosive charge blew up prematurely near Shaar Ephraim; only the terrorist was killed.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:02:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2002 6:16:00 AM EDT by Major-Murphy]
Originally Posted By garandman: It is common knowledge that the isreali gov't issues M-16's to housewives, school teachers, and teenagers and trains them how to use them.
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Nonsense. Israelis have to apply for Handgun permits just like we do. The Israeli Government DOES NOT ISSUE M16S TO WOMEN HOUSEWIVES AND CHILDREN. PERIOD. Show me a source. [red]Looked for myself. Found that Reservists are required to take their weapons home. Other civilians have access to weapons if the participate in the Civilian Patrol, but they return the Gov't weapon at the end of the day. [/red]
I have NEVER said they were valid military targets. EVER. Can the red herrrings.
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Did you say this?:
Originally Posted By garandman: Those housewives and "children' are provided gov't issue M-16's. They ARE de facto Isreali soldiers.
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Lastly...
It goes without saying that the palestinians are dirtbags. It is your moral relativism that since the Isrealis are not AS dirty as the Palestinians that we should side with them that is disturbing.
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You don't really know what that term ("moral relativism")means, huh?
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:13:37 AM EDT
garandman, please delete this horrible thread! Jesus would want you to. [u]Seriously[/u]. Eric The(YourBrotherInChrist)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:16:18 AM EDT
GMan.. Just how many innocent civilians were killed in this bombing? That is IF the IDF or mossad was behind it!! This was the putting downn of a feral dog plain and simple. Frankly your defense of him/it is demeaning.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:18:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: garandman, please delete this horrible thread! Jesus would want you to. [u]Seriously[/u]. Eric The(YourBrotherInChrist)Hun[>]:)]
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Amen, Brother Eric. G'man, please....?
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:22:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: garandman, please delete this horrible thread! Jesus would want you to. [u]Seriously[/u]. Eric The(YourBrotherInChrist)Hun[>]:)]
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"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." -- Jesus Christ, on what jesus whould have me do. I am pursuing the truth. Whereever it leads me. ONLY ONE person has provided any concrete info that i may have pegged this wrong - satcong. I'll look into his info. Eric - If you REALLY feel this thread is that "horrible" you have the power to zap it yerself. I won't squeal like the others about my 1st Amend rights being violated.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:26:21 AM EDT
If you REALLY feel this thread is that "horrible" you have the power to zap it yerself.
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I know that, but I won't! The decision must be yours, and, in light of what satcong has now brought to your attention, it should be a very easy decision! And I [u]know[/u] you wouldn't tell on me if I did zap it! But [u]we[/u] would know, and that's not how [u]we[/u] should handle these things, Brother... Eric The(That'sJustHowWeBrothersAre!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:28:27 AM EDT
ONLY ONE person has provided any concrete info that i may have pegged this wrong - satcong. I'll look into his info.
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Whooo-Hooooo! Yeah! Satcong rocks! Kidding, kidding![+]:D]
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:31:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." -- Jesus Christ, on what jesus whould have me do. I am pursuing the truth. Whereever it leads me.
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Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. Psalm 139:23-24 A good place to start... YBIC
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:35:02 AM EDT
It was on this board on this subject that for the first time in my life I was called ANTISEMETIC. Israel is both right and correct on all subjects. All Arabs are terrorists and aligned with the 9/11 attacks. The Arabs have no right to a homeland and should by some miracle get one the Israeli's have already decreed that homeland cannot have any means of protection. (No Military) I pride myself on actually reading the majority of most posts. Here there is no need. Oh, somewhere in here must be that Palestenians use their children as shields and to FORCE the Israeli's to shoot said children. The fat gal doing the uh-la-la and the four or five kids celebrating 9/11 should have been mentioned by now. And the attack on the USS Liberty was done by Arabs using hijacked Israeli planes or the attack was a mistake by the Israeli's because the wind wasn't blowing hard enough to unfurl the stars and stripes. With the standard it-is-the-Israeli-way-only participants how can anything be different. But how would anything I say matter anyway. I'm antisemetic. Was told so right on this board. [smoke]
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:35:21 AM EDT
Hey who said, "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword." (?)
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:36:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By satcong: El-Karmi was reported to be in jail by PA officials, but it appears this was not the case. He was killed in an explosion near his home. PA officials are blaming the IDF but official government sources deny any connection to the death. Senior officials stated it was most likely that the master terrorist was killed while preparing a bomb. Karmi was born in 1974 and a resident of PA-controlled Tul Karem. In media interviews, Karmi had made it clear that he was determined to continue terrorist attacks against Israel and that he wanted to expand them. In a CNN interview on August 23, 2001, Karmi stated firmly: “We train the teenagers to carry out terrorist attacks inside Israeli territory…We train 17 and 18-year-olds to attack settlers, kidnap soldiers from inside Israel.” In other interviews, he also described his involvement in the kidnapping and murder of two Israeli restaurateurs in Tul Karem in January 2001, Mordehai Dayan and his partner Etgar Zeitouny. They were taken out of the Abu Nidal Restaurant at gunpoint, and murdered by gunshots to their heads at pointblank range. Karmi acted directly under Marwan Barghouti, head of the Tanzim in Judea and Samaria and was under his direct supervision. Karmi perpetrated many terrorist attacks, including: 1. Numerous shooting attacks on IDF and Border Police bases in the Tul Karem area; 2. October 20, 2000 – Shooting attack on a bus of IDF Golani Brigade soldiers that mistakenly entered an Area A, under PA autonomous control; 3. December 7, 2000 - Shot at an Israeli vehicle near the village of Burke, seriously wounding two soldiers and a civilian. 4. January 23, 2001 – The murders of Mordehai Dayan, 27, and his partner Etgar Zeitouny. 5.May 31, 2001 – The murder of Tzvi Shalef, 63, in Baka el-Sharkiya. 6. June 18, 2001 – The murder of Danny Yehuda, 35, on the Shomron road between Chomesh and Shavei Shomron. 7. July 4, 2001 – The murder of Eliyahu Ne’eman, 36, near Baka el-Garbiye. 8. July 30, 2001 – A shooting attack that left three border policemen wounded, some seriously. 9. August 28, 2001 – The murder of Dov Rozman, 58, near Baka el-Garbiye. 10. September 6, 2001 – The murder of IDF Lt. Erez Merhavi, 21, between Kibbutz Bahan and Erez, not far from Baka el-Garbiye. 11. September 19, 2001 – Shooting attack directed at a taxi near Shavei Shomron that left three persons wounded. 12. September 28, 2001 – The attempt to infiltrate two suicide terrorists into Israel. 13. October 5, 2001 – The murder of Chananya Ben-Avraham, 45, near Avnei Chafetz. 14. October 28, 2001 – The murder of IDF Sergeant Yaniv Levy near Kibbutz Metzer. 15. October 29, 2001 – The attempted bombing attack in the Ra’anana home of naval Colonel Nathan Barak. 16. – December 15, 2001 - An abortive suicide attack in which the explosive charge blew up prematurely near Shaar Ephraim; only the terrorist was killed.
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[b]"By your fruits, ye shall be known"[/b]
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:37:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: The decision must be yours, and, in light of what satcong has now brought to your attention, it should be a very easy decision! [>]:)]
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Hun - I believe the charges (that satcong posted) against the palestian assassinated were brought by....(drum roll please) the people that assassinated him. NOT EXACTLY an unbiased source. And even if they are true, should he have been executed this way??? Should Terry Nichols and Tim McVeigh have , as sick and twisted as they were, been assassinated by our gov't by means of a bomb in a civilian area??? I think not. My point being that ya'll seem to make excuses for Isreali actions that y'all woulkd NEVER tolerate here in America. Remember, Tim McVeigh had JUST as much blood on his hands (probably more) as the palestinian the Isrealis murdered. And what ya'll make excuses for in Isreal will likely be coming soon to a town near you. I'm not afraid of where the truth may lead me. Neither is Jesus Christ. Neither should you be.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:46:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2002 6:53:40 AM EDT by PaoloAR15]
Originally Posted By garandman: It is common knowledge that the isreali gov't issues M-16's to housewives, school teachers, and teenagers and trains them how to use them. The pics have been in this forum. Ask ANYONE.
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Ask me, Garandman. And you'll get as answer that what you said is not true.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:47:13 AM EDT
I wonder what Velveeta thinks of this thread?
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:47:20 AM EDT
Let them sort it out on their own. It's their fight, not ours. Why is this thread "horrible?" Why is it a necessity to support Israel at all? If Israel conquers the whole of the Mid-East, fine. We'll buy oil from them. If Israel is wiped from the map, how are we harmed? If one side or the other has the dinero and wants to buy weapons, let us sell them the weapons at a fair profit. If both sides want to buy and have the money, even better. We gain nothing by taking sides in their squalid, interminable wars.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:48:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Gun-fan: I wonder what Velveeta thinks of this thread?
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Didn't ya know???? Fake cheese and I are best friends now, and agree on most every subject. As long as I change all my opinions to agree with his. [}:D]
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:51:01 AM EDT
Basically: Israel is far from perfect, but in the conflict of "Israel vs. the Palestinians"... ...the Israelis are the "good guys". I cannot fathom how anyone could say: a) "No, the Palestinians are the Good Guys." or b) "They're both bad, and equivalent in their Badness." That is the foundation of my frustration in these topics. I look at who supports Palestinians and Hamas, and Hezbollah, AND their tactics, and cannot understand what AMERICAN could join this company with a clear conscience.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:52:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: I'm TRYING to debate the validity of that assassination.
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No, that's not what he said. This wasn't terrorism, it was an assasination. Terrorism by DEFINITION is the use of random violence against CIVILIANS in order to spread terror among them and make them disatisfied with their government in order to destabilize it. This was a political assasination for military purposes against a military target.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:53:00 AM EDT
Post from 5subslr5 -
With the standard it-is-the-Israeli-way-only participants how can anything be different.
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Gee, 5subslr5, I always thought it was the pro-Israel folks who were outnumbered on this Board! You seem to think differently! All of the topics that you mentioned were most thoroughly discussed on this Board, and I know you know that, 'cause I know you were there! We went from: - there was [b]no[/b] dancing in Islamdom on Sept 11 - ok, there [b]was[/b] dancing in Islamdom, but it was in 1991, not Sept 11 - all right, there [b]was[/b] dancing in Islamdom, but what do you expect after all of Israel's treachery and the US involvement... - enough already, there [b]was[/b] dancing in Islamdom, but it was limited to a fat lady and 4 or 5 kids - we get the point, there [b]was[/b] dancing in Islamdom, but it was limited to....hmmm, wonder what will apologists for terrorists come up with next?
All Arabs are terrorists and aligned with the 9/11 attacks.
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I'm [u]almost[/u] certain that's [u]not[/u] true, but the majority of Arabs are not making it easy for me to believe it's not true, I can tell you that! Eric The(AndIDoubtSeriouslyThatI'mAlone)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 7:00:33 AM EDT
Post from G'man -
Hun - I believe the charges (that satcong posted) against the palestian assassinated were brought by....(drum roll please) the people that assassinated him. NOT EXACTLY an unbiased source. And even if they are true, should he have been executed this way???
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G-man. I believe the charges against [b]Osama Bin Laden[/b] that we are fighting a War on Terrorism over, were brought by...(drum roll, please)...the People who seek to assassinate [u]him[/u]! NOT EXACTLY an unbiased source. And even if they are true, should we be worried about the way we execute him? [b]Right back at you, garandman![/b] Call off the troops, President Bush, garandman has serious moral reservations about the aims of our War on Terrorism! Eric The(RatherUnlikely,Huh?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 7:01:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: I cannot fathom how anyone could say: a) "No, the Palestinians are the Good Guys." or b) "They're both bad, and equivalent in their Badness."
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Well, let me clarify - I have NEVER intended to convey either of those sentiments. Ands if I untentionlly have, I apologize, and retract. The palestianins are NOT the good guys. I am QUITE sure I have said this OVER AND OVER AND OVER. And I will concede that based on what we know, the palestinains are FAR MORE dirty and evil than the Isrealis. But my point is this - the Palestinains are guilty of (metaphorically) "rape and murder." The Isrealis are guilty of (metaphorically) "grand theft auto and aggravated assault." Are these equally heinous crimes? No. But are EITHER of them going to receive my friendship or admiration. NO WAY. That, and I am tired of funding their "grand theft auto and aggravated assault" with US tax dollars. re: moral equivalence - The crimes are not equal, but my disgust for both of the "criminals" is. I no more wish to be associated with one than the other. Just as I make little differentialtion between criminals in THIS country that are guilty of (actual) armed robbery vs. murder. They are ALL dirt bags, and I want them FAR away from me.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 7:04:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Golgo-13: Let them sort it out on their own. It's their fight, not ours.
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A nice idea if it would work, but both sides are involved in the kind of trouble that threatens our national intertests.
Why is this thread "horrible?"
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It's not, really, other than that the original question seeks to impose a moral equivalency where none exists.
Why is it a necessity to support Israel at all? If Israel conquers the whole of the Mid-East, fine. We'll buy oil from them. If Israel is wiped from the map, how are we harmed?
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Because Israel is clearly in the right on this issue. They are the offended nation, they are suffering daily unprovoked attacks by a people whose very own charter has the elimination of Israel among it's stated purposes for existing. Because in the course of world events one side is morally right and the other is wrong. We are solidly in the right in pursuing the 9/11 terrorists, and any others that threaten the US, by any means available to us, and in any place the pursuit of that goal may take us. We imposed our military will on a sovreign nation, Afghanistan, when they harbored those whose stated aim was the destruction of the United States and it's citizens. We appear to intend to continue to do so elsewhere. No one can say the US is wrong on doing this. Same goes for Israel. If a year from now the Palestinians are at peace in their homeland and Israeli terrorists are bombing their falafel shops and shooting up busloads of Palestinian schoolkids, Garandman [i][b]and[/i][/b] I will be singing the same song. Til, then, you are barking up the wrong tree. Sometimes you must make a choice between right and wrong. Sides must be chosen, and principles defended. To do otherwise is to allow anarchy to rule.
We gain nothing by taking sides in their squalid, interminable wars.
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We gain the goodwill of nations everywhere who seek to do rightly, and we generate fear in all those who would consider doing wrong. When the world knows that the US will swing our Big Stick to defend what is right, we are all far better off.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 7:04:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: It was on this board on this subject that for the first time in my life I was called ANTISEMETIC. *SNIP* And the attack on the USS Liberty was done by Arabs using hijacked Israeli planes or the attack was a mistake by the Israeli's because the wind wasn't blowing hard enough to unfurl the stars and stripes. *SNIP* But how would anything I say matter anyway. I'm antisemetic. Was told so right on this board. [smoke]
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Investigation----------------Date----Conclusion =============================================== [b]U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry-June 10-18, 1967[/b]-The attack was a case of mistaken identity. Calm conditions and slow ship speed may have made American flag difficult to identify. No indication the attack was intended against U.S. ship. ============================================== [b]CIA Report-June 13, 1967[/b]-The attack was not made in malice and was a mistake. ============================================== [b]Joint Chiefs of Staff Fact Finding Team (Russ Report)-June 9-20, 1967[/b]-Outlined "findings of fact," bud did not make any findings about the actual attack ============================================== [b]Clifford Report-July 18, 1967[/b]-No premeditation, but "inexcusable failures" by Israeli forces constituing "gross negligence." ============================================== [b]Senate Committee on Foreign Relations-1967[/b]-Secretary of Defense McNamara testified he supported conclusion that the attack was not intentional. ============================================== [b]Senate Armed Services Committee-Feb. 1, 1968[/b]-No conclusion. Secretary McNamara makes comparison of attack on Liberty to that on Pueblo with regard to uncertainty about what was happening at the time of the incident. ============================================== [b]House Appropriations Committee-April-May 1968[/b]-Navy communications "foulup" and no conclusion regarding Israeli actions. Much of report remains classified. ============================================== [b]House Armed Services Committee-May 10, 1971[/b]-Critical of Navy communications, no conclusion regarding Israeli actions ============================================== [b]Senate Select Committee on Intelligence-1979[/b]-Responding to critical book by Liberty crewman James Ennes, Senate investigation found no merit to his claim attack was intentional. ============================================== [b]National Security Agency-1981[/b]-Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian ship as a result of miscalculations and egregious errors. ============================================== [b]House Armed Services Committee-June 1991[/b]-Responding to request from Liberty Veterans Association, Subcommitte on Investigations launched probe that concluded there was no evidence to support allegations made by the Association and no reason for further investigation. ============================================== Now answer me: what's the interest of Israel in attacking a ship of USS Navy? Because the stars in the flag have only five tips instead of six?
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 7:05:52 AM EDT
The crimes are not equal, but my disgust for both of the "criminals" is. I no more wish to be associated with one than the other. Just as I make little differentialtion between criminals in THIS country that are guilty of (actual) armed robbery vs. murder. They are ALL dirt bags, and I want them FAR away from me.
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Gee, garandman, that's a pretty good working definition of 'moral equivalence' that you've just given us! [>]:)]
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 7:06:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: G-man. I believe the charges against [b]Osama Bin Laden[/b] that we are fighting a War on Terrorism over, were brought by...(drum roll, please)...the People who seek to assassinate [u]him[/u]! NOT EXACTLY an unbiased source. [>]:)]
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Eric - The charges against binLaden have been validated by the U.N. (of all people) and a dozen other nations. We have a video taped confession by bin laden. We have documents from teh terrorists cars linking them to bin laden. The evidence against bin laden is OVERWHELMING. As a lawyer, you should know that the case against this palestianian (the ONLY evidence against him being from his murderers) and the case against bin laden are WORLDS apart. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 7:09:21 AM EDT
I'll take Israel over the Palestinians any day.....bets on the outcome of this thing?
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 7:10:34 AM EDT
Well, I think my point has been made. the Israel apologists going down just about EVERY rabbit trail. other than actually addressing the action of executing this individual.
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