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Posted: 1/11/2005 11:33:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2005 10:13:24 AM EDT by thebeekeeper1]
I suspect this topic has been discussed widely before here, but a Wash. Post article on Drudge got me thinking about it.

I say Hell NO! WHY? Lendie Englund thats why. The dog lease whore of Abu Graib fame.

Currently Pregnant,  engaged in conduct unbecoming (and by some reports ,possibly engaging with prisoners too.) This is just in a non combat role,

I do think that a women could do the job, but the additional complications aka. capture and  rape by the enemy, bad behavior in the ranks,or use of a women troopers by the enemy against their Male counterparts. Women in combat in my opinion aren't worth the bad possibilities. I also feel that there is so many other roles a women can engage in that are equal to, or more effectively than a man can. In Iraq I know there are Female MP's but I'm talking mostly about frontline in "The Shit". tip of the spear type stuff

What say you ?

<We don't have any form of the F-word in thread titles.  Thanks>
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 11:37:02 PM EDT
I think a woman can be in combat but I don't think this country is ready to see video of women getting shot and mutilated or worse yet a woman being gang raped or having her head hacked-off by assholes.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 11:44:17 PM EDT
I am against it. Not in the frontline infantry units anyway. Too many horny lonely hero knight in shining armor wannabes. Guys will be doing all kinds of stupid to save her to be the hero and think they may get some. It will cost lives and will be a distraction.

I am not saying a woman cant handle the job, they may fight rather well. But that wont stop the actions of others.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 11:46:54 PM EDT
I'm totally against women in combat zones, and Naval ships under deployment.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 11:48:03 PM EDT
I think it can cause for some poor decision making on the field.  A male soldier sees two soldiers wounded, one male, one female.  The injured male may be in more urgent need of medical attention but the solder may feel morally obligated to help a female first.

Digital
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 12:08:33 AM EDT
Jeesh, didn't you guys watch G.I. Jane!? A woman can be an effective Navy Seal for pete's sake.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 12:10:13 AM EDT
A pre-menstral bitch with a gun, on my side? Hell yes.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 12:14:09 AM EDT
Almost a moot point.

"Non-combat" jobs are basically combat jobs today. Plenty of women have done patrols, manned MGs, gotten kills, and gone home under a flag.


If she can run, carry a pack, and put steel on a target, I could care less about other stuff.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 12:20:33 AM EDT
No way in combat!

ANdy
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 12:24:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2005 1:23:35 AM EDT by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 5:30:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
I think a woman can be in combat but I don't think this country is ready to see video of women getting shot and mutilated or worse yet a woman being gang raped or having her head hacked-off by assholes.



+1
I don't have a problem with it.... but the country as a whole will.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 5:33:23 AM EDT
They can't hack the infantry.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 5:34:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sin_Bin:
They can't hack the infantry.



+1, and even if they could it would be BAD for unit cohesion.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 5:40:32 AM EDT
Ok, here is the deal.

They want gays in the military....Fine...
They want women as combat troops....Fine..

Gays and women, according to liberals, can do ANYTHING a regular combat trooper can, to the same level.

Here is my proposition:  
Female only battalions
Gay only battalions

If they are JUST as good, this should NOT matter.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 5:42:48 AM EDT
Amazon Brigade.

I guarantee you that if you put a group of mothers next to a group with their own sons that the women would fight like you wouldn't believe.

Worked for Mother Russia......


SGatr15
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 5:44:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sin_Bin:
They can't hack the infantry.



Who says they have too?  Maybe the military should smarten up and utilize the NATURAL resourses of a woman instead of forcing them into traditional male rolls (like infrantry)

SGtar15
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 5:47:58 AM EDT
If they want equal rights, they get equal responsibility.  Women also have a higher pain tolerance, could come in handy on the battlefield.  Let em fight if they want.  More power to them.

I do agree however that most people of this country may not be ready for it though.  Shame.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 5:48:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 5:49:06 AM EDT
C'mon, who wouldn't want Pvt. Vasquez next to 'em in a foxhole?

Link Posted: 1/12/2005 5:53:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2005 5:54:52 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
The only reason to include women in Combat Units, would be IF women added to the warfighting capability of said units.

...and guess what?
They do not add anything to the wrafighting capabilities of a combat unit.
In fact they detract.

Those who are in favor of integrating women into Combat Arms Units, tell me this:


How does adding women to Combat Arms Units, increase our ability to achieve victory?

Doing this would require expenditures of valuable training time, and other resources.
What would be the benefits of such a cost?

That a woman "could do it", or that this "can be done" is completely irrelevant.
The question is whether it SHOULD be done.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 5:58:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2005 5:59:37 AM EDT by Goonboss]
It's all well and good to suppose and theorize, but, I firmly am agaisnt women  in combat roles.  From what I saw of females in the Army, I don't even want them in the same army as men.

My personal story

1995, NTC Rotation, 1CD.  I was Sr. Line medic for a Troop in the Divisional Cavalry Squadron.  We had our CCP set up at a breach site, and had a mass casualty situation.  We were chopped a track from 27 MSB that was assigned to our forward aid station.  They roll up, and, we are triageing a bunch of scouts and tankers that got zapped, so, I tell the two female medics that just rolled up to start loading up the casualties.  My treatment guy (E-3) is treating guys as I (E-5) triage.  Both the medics are females.  One of them, (E-4) tells me to go ahead and start loading patients onto her track and, then goes on to tell me the order in which to load them...(10 level task..I'm quite aware of the order to load).  Utilizing harsh language, I told her in no uncertain terms to get their asses in gear, and load thier damn track themselves, and, that the casualties needed to go, NOW.  It was the sorriest sight I ever saw to see two female soldiers trying to load thier 113 with a 200 pound 19K.  After watching them try and fail to get the guy into the upper left bearth on three different occasions, I took time away from actually doing patient care to help them get patients loaded.  So, in reality, I have to leave the guys I'm helping, and have three people do the job of two, and if it was war, my scouts would be bleeding out becasue these two soldiers couldn't do heir jobs.

I heard about it later from my PSG, becasue I was about as angry as I've ever been, having to help to worthless piece of crap females do the jobs they were too incompitant to do.  In training, it's anger...In combat, it's lives, and, I let them know that they needed to harden up...In no uncertain terms.

PLDC, BNCOC....Nothing but bad experiences with female NCOs and junior enlisted that thought they deserved all the consideration that male soldiers did, but, didn't pack the gear necessary.

btw..The army did a study that stated that women were fully able to meet male PT standards, and, job description standards, but, it just took them more effort.  So, it's more a WILL not rather than CAN not.

I'd hate to have to bet my life on a female gettign the SAW into action quickly enough.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 6:03:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:

Those who are in favor of integrating women into Combat Arms Units, tell me this:




I nerver said they should be integrated.


Sgatr15
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 6:04:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Digitalpunk:
I think it can cause for some poor decision making on the field.  A male soldier sees two soldiers wounded, one male, one female.  The injured male may be in more urgent need of medical attention but the solder may feel morally obligated to help a female first.

Digital



+1
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 6:07:13 AM EDT
Israelis tried it and it didn't work.

Can women hack combat?  Yes.  Soviets proved it with their snipers.  Should the units be mixed sex?  No, even the Soviets didn't try that, and we shouldn't either.

G23c
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 6:08:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
The only reason to include women in Combat Units, would be IF women added to the warfighting capability of said units.

...and guess what?
They do not add anything to the wrafighting capabilities of a combat unit.
In fact they detract.

Those who are in favor of integrating women into Combat Arms Units, tell me this:


How does adding women to Combat Arms Units, increase our ability to achieve victory?

Doing this would require expenditures of valuable training time, and other resources.
What would be the benefits of such a cost?

That a woman "could do it", or that this "can be done" is completely irrelevant.
The question is whether it SHOULD be done.



Bingo!
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 8:35:12 AM EDT
Like it or not folks, the USA has many female soldiers in Iraq. I guess since there is no such thing as front/back lines, many of the female soldiers are getting injured. I saw a sound bit on one female soldier who was riding in a vehicle that was hit by a RPG. She's lucky to be alive, and the docs had to amputate her leg below the knee. I just wish that we get this war over with, but I know that the USA is going to be in the Middle East for a long, long time.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 8:47:22 AM EDT

WOMEN IN GROUND COMBAT (GOOD IDEA OR INTERNET FLAMEWAR WAITING TO HAPPEN?)




I do not like the idea of women in combat. Neither does my wife in fact.

War's bad enough seeing a man get blown apart. How messed up would seeing a woman blown apart be?

No. War is man's folly. Necessary as it sometimes may be- it's man's gambit.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 9:06:46 AM EDT
our unit was know as "The Hawkeye Whore House" throughout Iraq.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 9:08:07 AM EDT
I guess my first question is, just what do you mean by Cluster F*ck?

There is just something about BYOP (bring your own p*ssy) that just doesn't sit right with me. The stress and danger are hard enough on the men but to add poon tang to the mix is just asking for problems. I'm surprised there are not more problems than there are.

But mark my words in the next 60 days you will hear news reports about women soldiers getting harassed, raped and/or knocked up in Iraq.  It will just be another part of our enemy the news media's attempts to break down our will to fight.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 9:11:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2005 9:13:56 AM EDT by Killbot]
Hell no….

If anyone has gone to Airborne School in the last 15 years (?), you know the reason why the runs are 8 – 9 minute miles that hurt your knees - its for the women. They hurt like hell, especially being used to doing them in 6 minutes. But hell, we MUST change the standard for the women.

I was in ROTC, and the women in our squad always had to bitch and moan. Its too hot, this Kevlar weighs too much, they make us carry too much in our ruck sacks, can we carry less, bla bla bla… And they constantly remind us of how they had to ‘medically’ have showers every 24 hours.

I’m not against women, but biologically speaking, they just do not have the upper body strength to do so. Let me ask you this – remember in the opening days of the Iraq War when a Marine was shot and a buddy scooped him up and carried him to safety? Well, do you think a woman could do that? No, I highly doubt it.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 9:20:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Amazon Brigade.

I guarantee you that if you put a group of mothers next to a group with their own sons that the women would fight like you wouldn't believe.

Worked for Mother Russia......


SGatr15



That might be the award winner for today's "Dumb Ass Post" contest.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 9:25:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Amazon Brigade.

I guarantee you that if you put a group of mothers next to a group with their own sons that the women would fight like you wouldn't believe.

Worked for Mother Russia......


SGatr15



That might be the award winner for today's "Dumb Ass Post" contest.



I agree with that one.  The mothers from mother Russia were wiped out in regular combat.  There are not many left.  The ones that did well we snipers and those in other capacity besides direct combat.  The Isrealis tried all women combat units and it to and pulled them back to reserve units.  Only a few women are in direct first line units.  
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 9:32:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
No way in combat!

ANdy



Actually, the British Army tested women's performance in several key areas a few years back, and found them seriously lacking:

1) Run/hike followed by shooting qual
2) Digging in hard soil
etc . . .

But you are probably very well aware of this . . .
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 9:42:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:

I agree with that one.  The mothers from mother Russia were wiped out in regular combat.  There are not many left.  The ones that did well we snipers and those in other capacity besides direct combat.  The Isrealis tried all women combat units and it to and pulled them back to reserve units.  Only a few women are in direct first line units.  



I am inclinded to believe that the women fighter pilots and snipers in the Red Army were there largely for propaganda purposes. Even the famous "sniper duel" at Stalingrad that never occured was probably very much a Soviet propaganda deal (although the Russian sniper was a male).

Link Posted: 1/12/2005 9:52:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sgthoskins:

Originally Posted By Digitalpunk:
I think it can cause for some poor decision making on the field.  A male soldier sees two soldiers wounded, one male, one female.  The injured male may be in more urgent need of medical attention but the solder may feel morally obligated to help a female first.

Digital



+1



Add my vote to the Hell No pile.

The 120mm main gun round for a tank will not weigh less because a female is trying to lift it. It requires good upper body strength to muscle that round around. I've seen a lot of guys struggle with it, but I've never seen a round dropped. I'd fear for my life if a petite female was assigned to my tank as a loader.

The Army acknowledges females are physically weaker than men. This is evidenced by the huge disparity in APFT standards. A male aged 18 needs to complete a minimum of 42 pushups to pass his test. His female counterpart needs only 19. If the female gets 42, she gets a score of 100. She scores 40 points more than the male for doing the same repetitions!
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 9:56:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:

WOMEN IN GROUND COMBAT (GOOD IDEA OR INTERNET FLAMEWAR WAITING TO HAPPEN?)




I do not like the idea of women in combat. Neither does my wife in fact.

War's bad enough seeing a man get blown apart. How messed up would seeing a woman blown apart be?

No. War is man's folly. Necessary as it sometimes may be- it's man's gambit.



+1

The problem isn't that women can't handle the job - it's more what happens to the men when they see a woman get blown apart.

I've read some stuff on this before - men tend to freeze up and completely tune out what is going on around them when a woman gets killed or wounded
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 10:06:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2005 10:07:08 AM EDT by FightingHellfish]

Originally Posted By DonS:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:

I agree with that one.  The mothers from mother Russia were wiped out in regular combat.  There are not many left.  The ones that did well we snipers and those in other capacity besides direct combat.  The Isrealis tried all women combat units and it to and pulled them back to reserve units.  Only a few women are in direct first line units.  



I am inclinded to believe that the women fighter pilots and snipers in the Red Army were there largely for propaganda purposes. Even the famous "sniper duel" at Stalingrad that never occured was probably very much a Soviet propaganda deal (although the Russian sniper was a male).




I can't post verification, but my understanding of the most recent information out of Russia since the end of the Cold War is that the women pilots, snipers, soldiers were in fact a propaganda ploy, largely fabricated.

I understand that the use of women in combat by the Israeli DF is largely an urban legend, perhaps someone here with first hand knowledge could elaborate.

I recall reading an article a few years back, perhaps in Infantry magazine where something like 80 women volunteers were run through Canada's (IIRC) infantry training program as an experiment , the infantry school was conducted at full speed, not scaled back for the women.  Less than 10 graduated, and these were not 'off the street' recruits, but rather motivated female soldiers who thought they were up to the task.

Unfortunately, in the US when women are added to a military career field, the requirements of the job are modified to suit the women, not the other way around.

If you want to think about a disaster waiting to happen, think about US Navy damage control parties if the USN ever has to fight a real bona-fide naval war again, with major surface ships sustaining real damage, perhaps a South China Sea part II, versus the PRC.  I'm not sure if the female sailors will pull their weight in that circumstance, and that could cost lives, or lose wars.

Females in combat arms is a bad call.  It doesn't enhance warfighting ability at all.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 10:16:08 AM EDT
I'll jump in and say NO!

I was 11B1P in 90-93.  I went out the door of a C-130 with about 160 lbs. of stuff on me (about 50 lbs. that I got to drop when I left the parachute).  I found it tiring, and at 3:00 in the morning with a 10k movement to contact, a 90 lb. ruck is an azzkicker.  

Have you ever tried to pistolbelt drag someone "off of the battlefield"? How about a fireman's carry for a quick run to cover?  Point being I had a hard time doing these kind of NECESSARY things being 194 lbs. of muscle.  

First and foremost is the mission, and anything that may tend to hinder it is a liability and therefore, a threat to the mission and the lives of the men on the mission.

Don't even get me started on going commando because of the underwear rotting off of us while sitting in rice paddies for hours in Korea (2 confirmed Urinary Tract Infections ).  Let's face it - hygene is a problem in some or most true frontline situations.

Sorry Ladies, but there are things you can do other than Infantry or elite Combat Arms.

Flame suit ON!
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 10:27:31 AM EDT
No women in combat.

Men fight

women nurture.

that's how we're wired.


what about sending soldiers' family overseas with them???

Let them see their family before the battle, and also they wouls also have them to come home to after an engagement.

Link Posted: 1/12/2005 10:30:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
[I understand that the use of women in combat by the Israeli DF is largely an urban legend, perhaps someone here with first hand knowledge could elaborate.




Prior to Isralei independence, the jews who were trying to create the modern state of Israel were committed to socialism and sexual equality. Women served in the War of Independence in 1948, and the combat experience led to them being removed from front line combat duty.

One of the posters on this site argued that this was really due to American public opinion, however, I don't think that was a primary concearn to jews in '48, and I've heard a number of Israeli military commanders who were there in '48 comment that women in combat is a bad idea.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 10:35:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
If you want to think about a disaster waiting to happen, think about US Navy damage control parties if the USN ever has to fight a real bona-fide naval war again, with major surface ships sustaining real damage, perhaps a South China Sea part II, versus the PRC.  I'm not sure if the female sailors will pull their weight in that circumstance, and that could cost lives, or lose wars.




I know someone who was in a briefing by an officier from the USS Stark. He didn't explicitly address women in combat, but one thing that stands out was that the men who were most effective after the two missles hit were "gym rats" who had superior upper body strength. Also: it wasn't a matter of doing your job. Your job could be sitting at a computer terminal, but that day you were engaged in damage control.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 10:44:44 AM EDT
DonS is correct.  Most of the stories are fabrications.  There are some that are true but the majority are false.  All the large all women units did exist with the Russians and Isrealis.  They did extemely poorly in combat.  There is a reason that most combat units are made up of young men.  A squad of middle aged men might not do as well as a bunch of teens and early 20s soldiers.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 10:47:38 AM EDT
No. Absolutely not.

There's more opportunity and relevance in support roles.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 10:54:15 AM EDT
I've seen some women who can't even cycle an M2.  And you want these people in combat?

Plus, how are you going to carry enough ammo if some of your mag pouches are filled with tampons?


Link Posted: 1/12/2005 11:02:29 AM EDT
I haven't read any other post on this thread, I didn't want to be influenced by others.  My experience in the Army with women leads me to give an unequivocal NO!!!  Not just no, but HELL NO!  Women should not be in combat.

Granted I was in a non-combat arms MOS, but spent better than 6 months a year in the field attached to 1Cav or 2ID.  There were many women in my unit, half of my platoon was women.  Some could hold their own, many could not.  Often times we worked 16 to 18 hour days only to have to pull guard duty for an additional hour each night.  Many, not all, but many of the women in my unit quickly found that what we used to call the "My Pu**y Hurts Excuse" i.e. PMS was a catch all that worked very well to get out of duty.  The men of the unit usually had to work longer days to make up the shortage in personel.  No officer or NCO was willing to challenge the "My P Hurts" due to fear of sexual harrassment ruining their career.  It was far too easy to look the other way and let it pass.  Needless to say, morale was in the toilet.  The end result was that female soldiers no longer participated in field exercises.  WTF????  Why have women in the sevice if they are prevented from performing their jobs.

Additionally,  while training with a Cav unit, we had to infiltrate and hold a small village.  Part of the mission was to rescue, treat and evacuate wounded soldiers to the rear area.  I had the unfortunate task of being a squad leader with 4 women in the squad.  NONE OF THEM, IN ANY COMBINATION COULD DRAG A 5'6'' 160lb SOLDIER THE 300 YARDS TO THE REAR.   What would happen in a combat situation???

Has anyone forgotten the Private from West Virginia who was captured by Iraqiis a few years ago?  What if she had been raped and tortured???  How would we feel as a nation knowing that we sent in one of our daughters to be raped tortured or killed in battle???

My .02 cents.  For whatever the hell it is worth.  
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 11:03:22 AM EDT
You know,

I married a female MI soldier in 1985, before we both got out. She was not a very good soldier and that's not because I divorced her later. She couldn't do her job and she was a load. Couldn't qual on the M16 and she was a distraction when her and her friends were skinny dipping on an FTX and they had OH-58's that kept buzzing the area while they ran around naked.

Really a distraction and not worth the trouble.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 11:03:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
I'm totally against women in combat zones, and Naval ships under deployment.



That's because your IQ is higher than 12 !!  




5sub
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 11:04:41 AM EDT
My story:

Basic Training at Ft Jackson,SC -  It sucked rocks - big time! We had "sexcapades" between males and females. Tons of lesbian activity...after week 3 females were complaining 2-3 times a week at morning formation about seeing and hearing twoandthreesomes in the showers and cots. On no less than 4 occasions our training, punishment pt, and confidence courses were cut short because females couldn't hack it. The hours and hours of sexual harassment briefings. We lost at least 2 good soldiers (male - one from Laos, one from Puerto Rico. We almost lost a third - jewish) because our head Drill SGT was rascist (she is black, by the way)  A black female threatened and dry-fired her M16 at male soldier - they were both given article 15's.

BNOC at Camp Williams, UT -  several of the females were permiscuous - one was married. One female who thought she was a"toughguy" because she would smoke and chew with the some of the males(even though she did neither normally). On our FTX she insisted that she get the "pig" (M60) for the duration. Guess who after about 20 min. ended up carrying it in addition to his own M16 - yep yours truly.

Ft Carson,CO and Camp Wolf, Kuwait -  If you think that it was the females who repeatedly loaded and unloaded our battalion's gear, guess again.

Camp Udairi, Kuwait -  where the male to female ratio was 10-to-1 or higher, we had a female warrant officer who sunbathed in her bikini w/ 2 other females. When she got dehydrated some dumb@ss hooked her up to an IV - she stayed right where she was, getting a tan. This happened twice.  She hooked up with several soldiers from different units at Camp Udairi. Did I mention she was married? She would come into male-only tents and take her shirt off (just a bra underneath). she played with her 9mm and stuck it in between her cleavage my buddy has it on tape.

Camp Slayer, Iraq -  somehow, she ended up on my site survey team and what a piece of work she was.  Everywhere we went she would flirt with men (Marines, other soldiers, Iraqis) causing serious security problems for my team she would let men crowd her at universities and other places. She put my team in danger situations on several occasions. When my OIC (Marine LTC Ramsey) would see her surrounding herself with men and letting them near her humvee he went nuts.  Last I heard she was courtmartialed in Baghdad for having sex with 1-2 other guys...which was recorded and distributed throughout the camp. (made possible by the magic of a camera, laptop and a stack of cd's). She was let off easy - she claimed that she had been drugged.


Disclaimer I have met and worked with a number of exceptional females in the military, many of whom were at least twice the soldier that I was.  But from experience, I say segregation is a must for successful training (Basic) and women she not be "combat troops".

Flame Away.

sst7
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 11:18:13 AM EDT
69F MWR pleasure specialist
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 11:21:11 AM EDT
..........=
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 11:45:06 AM EDT
Shouldn't this thread have a poll?

As if it needed one....
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