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Posted: 7/28/2001 2:12:21 PM EDT
I am a PRO-gun law enforcement officer. Late last year I purchased two SP89s. I was denied by NICS? I was astounded. I was reassigned to Florida and in sold one of the SPs to the dealer for $2000 (a huge loss in what I paid for it.)because I needed money to move. He promised to hold the other firearm until I could get the problem with NICS squared away. It has taken me 7 months to repair an error on the part of the FBI and have rectified that problem. So yesterday (July 27) I called the dealer to arrange to get the gun, finally, and this jerk sold it! A.) It was my personal property. B.) He says he won't pay me anything. C.) His attitude is VERY unprofessional. To start, DO NOT risk dealing with David Hess at Irving Firearms in Irving, Texas. Secondly, does anyone have any advise on how to deal with this? And please know that, the only responses I've received to date are to run out and hire a lawyer. Weel, I can't sneeze one out of my rearend and ATF says that is not an issue they will handle.
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 2:21:28 PM EDT
I'll preface this by stating I'm not a lawyer. However, contacting the local District Attorney may be worthwhile. I doubt dickhead will want any extra attention, especially with regard to FA weapons. Better Business Bureau, Chamber of Commerce are other alternatives-Not very helpful in most instances. The local biker bar may have some people who could be helpful if you plan on going back to visit. You may be able to get a lawyer to handle it over the phone. Most states allow you to get extra damages in such cases and that may make it worthwhile. What about your buddies in the area?
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 2:26:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2001 2:24:48 PM EDT by AFARR]
I am assuming that you bought the 2 SP-89's from a different dealer, had them transfered to Irving Firearms, and when you went to collect them, you were denied by NICS? Do you have proof that you paid the original owner for both guns? Do you have a receipt from Irving Firearms for the $$ they gave you for ONE SP-89? I will assume that it was a verbal agreement on holding the second gun. If you have proof of what you paid, and can show that you attempted to get the SP-89's from the dealer, were denied by NICS, and corrected the problem, then file charges locally for theft. Let the dealer handle the legal hassles. I would bet that (since it is a $3000 gun) in Texas, the value exceeds what makes it petty theft and bumps it up into a major misdemeanor or felony status. At the same time I would file a warrant in detinue (I used to work for a rent-to-own place and that is what we used to recover the rental property that belonged to us when someone stopped paying on it). Make sure to declare a fair value on the gun, as I assume the dealer really has sold it. It will probably take a trip to Texas to get it resolved (if you are still in FL), but would be worth it to get some money back. I don't know what level (small claims court, or a different court) this reaches in TX, but you can probably represent yourself if you have adequate documentation. All this is assuming you have some firm documentation, otherwise, you are probably SOL. I am betting that the dealer's attorney will call you and say "how can we make this go away". Don't get greedy--then they can accuse you of fraud/blackmail. Just get the gun or a replacement's value back. Not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV, so take my advice for what it is worth--(about $.00).
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 2:31:28 PM EDT
I sincerely appreciate the responses and advice you're all giving. Does anyone know of a way to get a current market value for SP89s in 85-95% condition. If I knew where to find postings by sellers I could get an aggregate value or a simple average. For the sake of the judicial system I think I'd need to average the asked price for around 100 sellers. Thanks Again.
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 2:36:33 PM EDT
gunsamerica.com hkpro.com for sale boards. subguns.com non-nfa for sale board sturmgewehr.com non-nfa for sale board FMV on an SP-89 in 85% condition is about $2800 in 95% condition about $3200. Any mags, accessories will add to that figure.
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 2:48:38 PM EDT
Mags, That I did. So did the SAIC for DEA Dallas. What I have learned about NICS during my fight was; A.) NICS personnel are NOT LEOs, they are civilian contractors. B.) My first issue with them was that there was a "NS Restrict" on my file. NS or NatSec was in ref. to prior work I've done for the gov. (a mistake in retrospect)which did not allow NICS personnel to veiw any further information on me. C.) I was undercover for a short period in 1998 and the State of Texas never followed through with correcting the fake criminal history that had been placed on there (presumably in the event that someone on the other side found a way to get there hands on my criminal history so that that would correspond with my cover story) D.) Because Texas never fixed this, it showed as "Pending" on the FBI's system. Because the possible sentenced was up to 12 months in Jail, the FBI automatically concidered it a Felony! Want to talk about someone's life getting screwed up by the Bureau's ignorance. (Not as if that is anything new.) I am not real popular within LEO circles at times because I am not a Republican, I am certainly not a Democrat, I am a strict constitutionalist. And I know as a cop; That citizens are obligated to have the means to protect themselves because cops can't be there all the time (or get there in enough time) and a lawfully armed community places all of us in less risk.
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 2:56:57 PM EDT
I don't understand why the BATF will not get involved. It seems to me that if he sold something that did not belong to him, that is stealing. Stolen guns are definitely something the ATF deals with. If you can prove that he knowing sold your gun without permission, there should be a pair of cuffs all ready for his grubby little paws.
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 3:31:16 PM EDT
Dir, what documentation do you have? Just so you know, you can take him to Small Claims Court for a claim under $5,000. Also, Texas has a VERY strong consumer rights law - in some case you can get treble (3x) damages in satisfaction of the claim. Seriously, contact the BBB, find all of your documentation, and if you want go to Small Claims. You really should get the ATF involved somehow and you will do much better if you can get an attorney...
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 4:26:59 PM EDT
The ATF will not care. The only thing they care about is proper paperwork of logging guns in/out. This is a money contract issue. Chances are you took this guy at his word and got nothing in writing. There is this big trust between fellow shooters that seems to prevail. Don't you have any local friends/ex-co-workers still on the job that can pop in and do a lot of looking around for excessive mouse turd violations and the like? They could pop into his shop and say I am a friend of Johnny and he suggested we pop in once in a while and look at your 4473s cause we here you sell to local non us illegal immagrants. Plus give us all the details you can on the shop and his contacts. We can bring down a lot of e-mail pressure and spread shit all over all the guns boards. Before you have us do this you better be sure your side of the story is the truth and nothing else will pop up on his side of how you owe him back rent or some shit.
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 6:26:21 PM EDT
Sorry to here about this bad deal you are in. I am in a similar situatio, I bought a bushmaster from a dealer on auction arms. He cashed my money order and I have not had contact with him in 24 days, his phone is disconnected etc. I contacted the police dept. in his town and filed a report, the internet fraud complaint center, his city attorney generals office/fraud division, postal service, and the atf. All I can say is keep all of your documentation and maybe consider filing the papers in small claims court if you do not exceed the limits. Maybe the papers will get the ball rolling or at least show him you are serious. I can not imagine he would want to risk losing his license over something like this. I also posted here as well as other gun boards to let people know about this nob that got me. I suggest you do the same. I have a lot of good information and suggestions from the members here. Again, good luck Steve
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 6:37:58 PM EDT
Call the Police and report the gun Stolen, which it is.
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 6:47:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Neolock: Call the Police and report the gun Stolen, which it is.
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Yes, and you only have the guy's word that he sold it. You know how much his word is worth. I would think the ATF ought to be interested in whether a stolen gun is in his inventory. PRK
Link Posted: 7/28/2001 7:00:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2001 6:56:56 PM EDT by Shlomo]
I lent a gun to a friend of mine a while back, and he summarily decided to just blow me off, and keep my gun (A Ruger 10/22 rifle). I warned him twice, that if he didn't return my gun, I was going to report the gun stolen... He didn't reply. I knocked on his door.... He was obviously there, but he didn't answer the dfoor... So, I reported it stolen, and told the Sheriff exactly where the stolen gun could be found. They had my gun for me within 3 hours, and didn't even have to log it into the computers as being stolen. No charges were filed or anything like that, but he was all too willing to give it up once the cops showed up telling him that he was in possesion of ""stolen property".
Link Posted: 7/29/2001 7:03:58 AM EDT
I am not a lawyer, but I have more than a passing familiarity with Texas law. Possessing a stolen firearm or stealing a firearm in Texas is a "State Jail" felony, regardless of the value. If the value is over $20K, it is a Third Degree Felony. BTW, the normal value for State Jail felony offenses is $1500-20K, so it would have been a felony either way. Despite all of that, this sounds more like a civil matter, unless you have a receipt or some type of paper that can show that you owned the weapon. If the value of the weapon is less than $5K, you can file a small claims suit with either your local Justice of the Peace Court, or the JP Court where his gunshop is located. You will have to pay some fees to file the suit, and to get him served by the Constable. After that, they should set up a pre trial hearing to try and resolve the matter. If that doesn't work, there will be a trial before the court, with the JP presiding. They will decide the merits of the case. If he fails to show (which usually happens) you will most likely get a default judgement against him. To enforce your monetary damages (no punitive, just actual loss and court costs), you have to file a "writ of execution." If the judge approves it, which they usually will if you won, a constable will go to his business and seize enough property for an auction to cover your losses and the cost of auction. If they don't get enough the first time, they will go back until they have enough. This whole process will take six months to a year, so it isn't easy.
Link Posted: 7/29/2001 8:37:05 AM EDT
Sorry to hear about the problem. First I would post this on every gun board you can find. Sooner or later the word will get back to Irving Firearms. If they are concerend about their repuration they will make things right. Second, do as others suggested and contact the Irving DA's office and the local BATF office. Third, get all your documentation organized that you have. Hopefully, you have some of this if not all in writing. The more organized you are the less an attorney should charge you. Keep us posted. Irving Firearms hits all the DFW and Houston gun shows. They will probably be in Houston next week. If needed I can talk with these people. Good luck.
Link Posted: 7/29/2001 9:36:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By King300: Sorry to here about this bad deal you are in. I am in a similar situatio, I bought a bushmaster from a dealer on auction arms. He cashed my money order and I have not had contact with him in 24 days, his phone is disconnected etc..... Steve
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Got a name for this creep?
Link Posted: 7/29/2001 9:43:10 AM EDT
Two words: Judge Judy. Take him to small claims court.
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