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Posted: 4/14/2017 11:38:27 PM EDT
In my search for another Vortex PST, came across a deal on a Leupold Mark 4 that I couldn't pass on.  Its a Leupold Mk4 4.5-14x50 with the TMR reticle and M1 adjustments, model 60005.  

Leupold Mark 4

I know at one time, Leupold Mark 4's used to be the tactical scope to buy.  How are they nowadays, especially compared with a Vortex PST 4-16x?  I have three of the Vortex PSTs (all SFP), and I am curious to see how the Leupold stacks up.  I know the turrets are likely better matched on the Vortex, but I'm interested in trying out the TMR reticle and see if I like it as much as the EBR.
Link Posted: 4/14/2017 11:42:51 PM EDT
Vortex has the warranty that leupold used to have...
Link Posted: 4/14/2017 11:49:26 PM EDT
Vortex has the warranty that leupold used to have...
View Quote
I've always had good luck with Leupold's warranty, sent a M8 4x in a few months ago that came back perfect in less than a couple weeks.
Link Posted: 4/14/2017 11:53:33 PM EDT
Me too I was just being an asshole
Link Posted: 4/14/2017 11:55:25 PM EDT
Get both.  Can't really go wrong.  Hell, when I was doing FFL work, Leupold replaced (twice) the VX-3 scope of a fellow coworker.  First time it took a leap off his 4wheeler and down a ridge.  Second time, he backed over his rifle after forgetting it was leaning against his truck.  No questions asked, just a little note requesting he stop wrecking his scopes. Then again, he knew the Leupold rep fairly well. 
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 12:09:26 AM EDT
You get more features with the vortex than the leold at a much lower price.
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 12:14:12 AM EDT
If the Leupold comes at a good price go for it. I like the turrets better on the PSTs.

I have several Leupold scopes and have been happy with them (love my vxr series scopes) but vortex is my go to.
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 12:18:43 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You get more features with the vortex than the leold at a much lower price.
View Quote


I agree, but I was able to get a really good deal on the Leupold.
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 12:27:05 AM EDT
Iirc mark IV were discontinued for civilians 12/31/16.  Still available to loe due to how budgets are made

fwiw I got one on clearence. They were not worth msrp due to being outdated tec. At discount they were only a little overpriced, but not inline with The companies marketing strategy. I can only wag that the margin was not what they wanted at the discounted price. 

Compared to the viper they are ok. They don't compare to the razor HD
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 12:27:48 AM EDT
If optics are the question, Vortex is the answer.
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 12:32:23 AM EDT
Even the cheapest Leopolds are decent quality
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 12:36:30 AM EDT
Mil reticle, MOA turrets. Nope.
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 12:39:11 AM EDT
I have several of both & I'm leaning towards Vortex for the win Alex.
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 12:39:25 AM EDT
Vortex /thread


Leupold relies mostly on name recognition.  Most of their stuff is antiquated and the stuff that isnt, is horribly overpriced.
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 12:43:46 AM EDT
I have several of both.

I'll be going with Vortex from now on.
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 12:47:05 AM EDT
Vortex hands down. They're good to military as well.
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 12:50:54 AM EDT
I've got (and have had) examples of both makes... I have to say that Vortex makes a heck of a scope for the money. Leopold is pricier and generally worth it, but Vortex over-delivers imho.

When it's time for me to buy scopes Vortex is the first place I'll look these days.
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 9:04:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 9:10:45 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Even the cheapest Leopolds are decent quality
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I dunno, man. I've tried a couple of the "Rifleman" line, and they were pretty much crap. I do really like the VX-Rs, though.
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 9:47:07 AM EDT
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Quoted:
I dunno, man. I've tried a couple of the "Rifleman" line, and they were pretty much crap. I do really like the VX-Rs, though.
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What was wrong with them? Did the turrets not work properly or did the gas leak out?
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 9:50:57 AM EDT
I have both.  
I prefer the glass in leupolds
My vx6 and vxr glass are extremely clear
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 8:20:43 PM EDT
I dunno, man. I've tried a couple of the "Rifleman" line, and they were pretty much crap. I do really like the VX-Rs, though.
View Quote


I agree, the Rifleman scopes are extremely overpriced.  Glass is not that great, especially for the price, and really didn't seem any better than other $69 Chinese optics.  The Burris Fullfield II and Nikon Buckmasters are much better scopes, and cheaper to boot.  

I should have the Mark 4 on Monday, and will try and get it to the range on Tuesday.  I expect the glass will be just as good (or better) than the Vortex, but I am not sure if I will like the turrets as much as those on the PST.
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 8:28:25 PM EDT
I'd take a leupold rifleman over Nikon any day..... nothing like an x for a cross hair after 10 rounds 308 on and older (new at the time) buck master, and Nikon not wanting to fix it.... Said I must have abused it. Still like their cameras though....
Link Posted: 4/15/2017 8:58:19 PM EDT
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Quoted:
I'd take a leupold rifleman over Nikon any day..... nothing like an x for a cross hair after 10 rounds 308 on and older (new at the time) buck master, and Nikon not wanting to fix it.... Said I must have abused it. Still like their cameras though....
View Quote


That surprises me, I've always had good luck with Nikon customer service.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 8:11:16 PM EDT
I was able to pick up the Mark 4 yesterday, and I am a little underwhelmed.  Glass is great, and I like the reticle....but the turrets are mushy and not very tactile.  I'm not sure if greasing the o-rings will help, but the PST turrets are light years ahead of the Leupold.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 8:31:47 PM EDT
If the glass is good and the clicks are accurate and repeatable then its doing its job.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 9:42:24 PM EDT
The Mark IV ER has a mil/mil option
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 9:43:54 PM EDT
Both
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 9:44:44 PM EDT
In before John_Burns and SKG face off.
Link Posted: 4/18/2017 9:58:56 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Mil reticle, MOA turrets. Nope.
View Quote
Got one like that a couple of months ago for 700-for that price, the cost to change to the mil turrets, it still comes in less than the Vortex equivalent I looked at, and the Leupy had much better low light glass.
YMMV.

Nick
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 12:46:44 AM EDT
I prefer Leupold. IMO, the glass is higher quality and I like the reticle better.  Most Leupold's are made in USA as well.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 6:09:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 6:38:41 AM EDT
In before the Athlon trolls.....
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 6:47:11 AM EDT
Having worked for Leupold before,  I can tell you one thing...

There is a display case with some of the most fucked up scopes that they warrantied.  You can pretty much do anything to it as long as you don't say it was purposeful and get a replacement.

Friend shot it at deer camp?  Fell into a Georgia mud field and was found 15 years later?  Fell off a cliff?  They got you covered.

Also,  any rifle optic with an L on it has all American made parts except glass. Most Redfield products are made on the same machines as Leupold products as well.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 7:14:39 AM EDT
Vortex is the new Leupold.  
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 7:55:53 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Having worked for Leupold before,  I can tell you one thing...

There is a display case with some of the most fucked up scopes that they warrantied.  You can pretty much do anything to it as long as you don't say it was purposeful and get a replacement.

Friend shot it at deer camp?  Fell into a Georgia mud field and was found 15 years later?  Fell off a cliff?  They got you covered.

Also,  any rifle optic with an L on it has all American made parts except glass. Most Redfield products are made on the same machines as Leupold products as well.
View Quote
And this is why I buy Leopold, your grandkids can break it, and Leopold will fix it. Buy once, cry once.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 8:02:43 AM EDT
I have owned/shot both. I had a Vortex 1-4 and a Leupold mk4 1.5-5. As well as a Vortex PST 2-10 and the Leupold mk4 2.5-8.

All seemed to be fine scopes. However, I shot better with the Leupolds.  I'm not sure why.

My Leupold Mark 4 2.5-8 (TS-30A2) is just about my favorite scope. I shoot really well with it.

Link Posted: 4/19/2017 8:10:54 AM EDT
Leupold Made in USA.
Vortex, made in the Phillipines.
Both are very good. I know what I'm choosing.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 8:20:21 AM EDT
They are both very good scopes but one thing to remember is this.
A guy I hunt with sent an early 1980's Leupold back to them a few years ago because of blurring issues.
They completely refurbished it.
You are simply are not going to get that with an Asian scope.

The best thing I like about Leupold scopes is the eye box and relief.
I love my Nikon Monarch scopes but they do not have that same eye relief.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 8:28:55 AM EDT
I'm a Leupold fan and have perhaps seven or eight MK IV's of various kinds. I have one Vortex PST. I find the glass clearer in my Leupold scopes vs. my sole Vortex, I also find more tunneling in my Vortex. This is not to say Leupold MK IV's have better glass overall than the PST line... just seems my Vortex is not as "crisp".

I've had some business dealings with Leupold's service and found them to be outstanding. I've also had outstanding support from Vortex reference advertisement materials for display in my classroom. They both are great optics companies with lots to offer depending on your budget.

I'll take a MK IV over the PST... but that's just a personal preference. I've scooped up several off the EE in the past year...
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 8:40:54 AM EDT
I own and have owned a number of Mk4 scopes (along with March, Nightforce, Steiner, Zeiss).

My opinion is Vortex PSTs have more updated features, and Mk4s are still higher quality where it counts the most to me.  PSTs are an extremely good value for the money, and Mk4s are/were over priced at MSRP.  So even though you get more bang for your buck with a PST, I would rather have a used MK4 bought for 50-60% new price.

If Leupold would make the Mk4 with M5 turrets and better reticle options for under a grand, I don't think the PST would have eaten as much of their market as they did.

That said, I still don't understand how no one ever comments about the PST reticle.  I know the glass is relatively decent, maybe exceptional for the price.  But the reticle, whatever process is used to actually get that in there is the same one done on $25 chinese scopes.  It changes color in varying angles of light and can even wash out completely in direct sunlight.  Every Viper I've looked through will do this.  Razors do not.  Leupold (at least VX-2 and up) will not.  I don't know if the difference is between an etched reticle and what amounts to a printed/overlay on a lens or what, but if I pick up an optic and it does that, I don't care how nice the turrets are or how well thought out anything else is, I put it down.  It's simply not acceptable to me in a $500+ optic.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 8:41:22 AM EDT
Leupold is a good American company that I try to give money to as often as a I can.  
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:01:29 AM EDT
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Quoted:


Both of my turrets are better than my PST's

Where did you get it and how much has it been used?   Maybe it has been exposed to extreme temperatures
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Scope is brand new, never mounted....and there is simply no comparison between the MK4 turrets and the ones on my Vortex scopes.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:04:00 AM EDT
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Quoted:


I agree, but I was able to get a really good deal on the Leupold.
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Not a deal if it has moa turrets and mil adjustments/reticle.

By the way my Mark4 has a 3.30% tracking error.

My SWFA has a 0.70% tracking error
My IOR has a 0.15% tracking error

The SWFA and IOR are better in every way than the Leupold.

To add: tracking error, if consistent doesn't really matter because you can account for it in your ballistic solver.
I have had the Mark 4 to 1000+ several times and it works perfectly in spite of the error.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:14:30 AM EDT
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Quoted:
Not a deal if it has moa turrets and mil adjustments/reticle.
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Except you can get that changed.
So if the buy in plus the cost of the M5 upgrade is a wash or better than the equivalent Vortex...
Like I stated earlier, there was no comparison in actual clarity-dark areas at max mag were indistinct muddy blotches with the 850 Vortex.
The 700 dollar Mk4, the very same place was clear and detailed with good color contrast.
The difference was startling, actually.

Nick
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:23:26 AM EDT
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Quoted:

Except you can get that changed.
So if the buy in plus the cost of the M5 upgrade is a wash or better than the equivalent Vortex...
Like I stated earlier, there was no comparison in actual clarity-dark areas at max mag were indistinct muddy blotches with the 850 Vortex.
The 700 dollar Mk4, the very same place was clear and detailed with good color contrast.
The difference was startling, actually.

Nick
View Quote
What is the cost? My Mark4 has M5 turrets just curious.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:24:09 AM EDT
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Quoted:
If optics are the question, Vortex is the answer.
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Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:24:49 AM EDT
I recently sold my Vortex Razor HD2 1-6, not only because it was heavy as fuck, but also highly overrated and overpriced for what it was. Wife has a Strikeforce 2 on her SBR and it's okay, but then again it was also fairly inexpensive.

I will not be selling my Leupolds.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:31:06 AM EDT
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Quoted:
I prefer Leupold. IMO, the glass is higher quality and I like the reticle better.  Most Leupold's are made in USA as well.
View Quote
I have had Leupolds on my hunting rifles for fourty years. See no reason to change. Can almost see in the dark.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:31:51 AM EDT
American assembly versus Asian assembly.  Who do you want to receive your hard earned dollars, American workers or communist workers in China?  I get that Vortex has a great warranty and nice owners but the overwhelming majority of their products are made in Asia.
Link Posted: 4/20/2017 9:35:49 AM EDT
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Quoted:
What is the cost? My Mark4 has M5 turrets just curious.
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Around 130, IIRC.
Custom shop does the work-replaces the erector, so it's not just changing out to different marked knobs.
I would prefer if they offered something like an M2 or 3 knob in 1/10 mil adjustments, but the tall M5's are better than nothing at all.

Nick
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