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Posted: 4/19/2007 4:33:16 AM EST
All, I am ot sure if it has been brought up yet as this story unfolds but something is still bugging me.

I feel as though the damage the killer did was far too accurrate and not representative of a madman opening fire on a class room. I own a Glock 17 and have been trained with it pretty extensivley and I am unsure I could go into a room, inflict that many multiple hits on 30 people with out really planning for it.

The news states these things.

Both guns were only a few months old.
Each victim had no less than 3 shots in them.
Lots of rounds were fired meaning there was some reloading(takes some level of skill)

Basically, my question is this. Does anyone else feel as though this dirtbag had some level of training exceeding that of a "new" handgun owner". I feel as though his ramapge was highly calculated and his shooting was surprisingly accurate. We all know that a handgun is a hard tool to be accurate with, especially if untrained and shooting at a distance of more than 10yds, under distress.

I would love to here your thoughts. I think it will come out that this kid had some training.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:37:08 AM EST
Lord knows how many rounds were actually fired.  I honestly think he had a target rich environment, people not moving on the floor and simply expended an extremely large amount of ammo.  
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:37:53 AM EST
there are at least 3 threads with multiple pages discussing his "amazing" accuracy, the lethality of his ammo ad nauseam
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:38:41 AM EST
I hear that...but I feel as though the Target Rich Environment still would have been chaotic enough to distress the shooter. Plus, by all acounts I have heard, he did nto actually enter the room, but instead stood in the door way shooting.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:39:01 AM EST
Reloading doesn't take that much skill when you've got unarmed people scared and pinned down in a classroom.

Also, it's possible that he was just looney enough to not be in distress while shooting at innocents.  I'm not even sure they were the large stadium type of classrooms, may have been the kind designed to hold 30 - 40 students which makes the range about 20 feet maybe?

Then again, I could be wrong, I wasn't inside the building with him.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:39:07 AM EST

Quoted:
All, I am ot sure if it has been brought up yet as this story unfolds but something is still bugging me.

I feel as though the damage the killer did was far too accurrate and not representative of a madman opening fire on a class room. I own a Glock 17 and have been trained with it pretty extensivley and I am unsure I could go into a room, inflict that many multiple hits on 30 people with out really planning for it.

The news states these things.

Both guns were only a few months old.
Each victim had no less than 3 shots in them.
Lots of rounds were fired meaning there was some reloading(takes some level of skill)

Basically, my question is this. Does anyone else feel as though this dirtbag had some level of training exceeding that of a "new" handgun owner". I feel as though his ramapge was highly calculated and his shooting was surprisingly accurate. We all know that a handgun is a hard tool to be accurate with, especially if untrained and shooting at a distance of more than 10yds, under distress.

I would love to here your thoughts. I think it will come out that this kid had some training.



Um, no.

Have you seen "Taxi Driver"?

Standing in your room, doing drills, practicing reloading, practicing your stance, reading up on the interwebs on correct stance, posture, shooting theory, etc. etc. etc... Shit, there is even a great video on youtube of a IPSC multiple champion teaching you on the basics of how to hold a pistol, aim a pistol, pull the trigger, etc. etc. etc.

He was not trained "formally" but you can bet your ass he practiced... Probably read one of the billion 9mm vs. 45 flame wars too
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:39:46 AM EST

Quoted:
All, I am ot sure if it has been brought up yet as this story unfolds but something is still bugging me.

I feel as though the damage the killer did was far too accurrate and not representative of a madman opening fire on a class room. I own a Glock 17 and have been trained with it pretty extensivley and I am unsure I could go into a room, inflict that many multiple hits on 30 people with out really planning for it.

The news states these things.

Both guns were only a few months old.
Each victim had no less than 3 shots in them.
Lots of rounds were fired meaning there was some reloading(takes some level of skill)

Basically, my question is this. Does anyone else feel as though this dirtbag had some level of training exceeding that of a "new" handgun owner". I feel as though his ramapge was highly calculated and his shooting was surprisingly accurate. We all know that a handgun is a hard tool to be accurate with, especially if untrained and shooting at a distance of more than 10yds, under distress.

I would love to here your thoughts. I think it will come out that this kid had some training.


Out of four classrooms with approximately 30 people in each he killed or wounded about half. He put multiple rounds in most of his victims. How hard is it to shoot a target that isn't moving? The reason you don't think you could do as well is you're not a psychopath. Like you I would have a hard time imagining it being done. However, from a technical aspect it is unremarkable given enough ammunition.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:40:30 AM EST
Really not that hard. What is a few months, 3,4? If a person went to the range 2-3 times a week they could develope that kind of proficiency over the course of a few months. It's real easy to shoot targets that are cornered and can't shoot back.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:41:01 AM EST
No.  I think he was a complete nut.  I don't think he was trained and I don't think he was Al-Qaeda (as proposed on another board).

I hate it when the conspiracy theories start up almost the day something tragic like this happens.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:41:48 AM EST
I think people must have been submitting to him and/or playing dead when he killed them.

Shoot them with the .22 and they drop, and he walks up and executes with the 9mm.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:42:29 AM EST
This guy proably practiced reloads in his dorm room for weeks.  He was also not a novice.  He had enough knowledge to purchase guns online and have them delvered to a local pawnshop.

Plus, how much accuracy/skill do you need at 5 feet?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:42:48 AM EST

Quoted:
Really not that hard. What is a few months, 3,4? If a person went to the range 2-3 times a week they could develope that kind of proficiency over the course of a few months. It's real easy to shoot targets that are cornered and can't shoot back.

Or when people are scared [email protected]#$less and you've just ordered them to line up against a wall (which he reportedly did).  Shooting 10 people lined up against a wall in the back at point blank range doesn't take a lot of skill... just one sick freaking mind.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:44:12 AM EST
Here is a drill

Take 5 watermelons

Place them 3-4 feet apart in a line at about 4 feet off the ground.

Now start at the first one and in a quick, yet controlled pace, walk down the line putting 3 rounds into each from 4-5 feet.

See how many times you fail to hit the watermelons.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:45:16 AM EST
How hard is it to buy a gun walk into a collage classroom full of un-armed people and open fire? No skill is required when your 5 feet away from your victims
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:46:16 AM EST
I have not yet heard any reports of how he killed them, I was under the impression that he just opened the door and started firing.

DID he do it execution style? Did he line people up? God, it is nutso to hear this thing unfold and how calulated he was? Truly sick. Any more info from inside the class room??

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:47:25 AM EST

Quoted:

Each victim had no less than 3 shots in them.

We all know that a handgun is a hard tool to be accurate with, especially if untrained and shooting at a distance of more than 10yds, under distress.








3 rounds at 25yds… I don't consider myself a particularly 'good' shot.


ANdy


Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:47:28 AM EST
Pretty easy to get that number of kills when your trained by the CIA..

Look at all the signs.. He was CIA.. I could put money on it..
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:48:01 AM EST
height=8
Quoted:
Here is a drill

Take 5 watermelons

Place them 3-4 feet apart in a line at about 4 feet off the ground.

Now start at the first one and in a quick, yet controlled pace, walk down the line putting 3 rounds into each from 4-5 feet.

See how many times you fail to hit the watermelons.


I agree, and this is the basis of my questioning. I am pretty good shot, but even at clsoe range, the first few shots help me get my bearings, and I am at a range, not at a classroom, with heart rate most likely through the roof. Although, maybe psychos can remoain calm when engaging in activities that would stress most out.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:49:04 AM EST
threads like this make me wonder how much actually shooting some of arfcom really does.


This isn't a case of somebody taking on multiple tangos/goblins armed to the teeth and triumphing with mad skillzz


This is a case of a fucking lunatic walking into a box full of unexpecting people and beginning to shoot them.

They had no viable means of defense.

Like someone said "lay some melons out and shoot at them" as much as I hate to say it, that is basically what this amounted to.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:50:17 AM EST
I wonder what would have happened had some of the of people rushed him..........no flame against those students he killed, as they were innocents who didnt deserve what happened, but does anyone think that it could have changed the situation?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:50:33 AM EST

Quoted:
Lord knows how many rounds were actually fired.  I honestly think he had a target rich environment, people not moving on the floor and simply expended an extremely large amount of ammo.  


My feeling is this;

These kids were nearly all "Post Columbine" students. Meaning, they were all trained on how react to a situation like this. They are trained to lock the classroom door and hide. Hide under a chair or desk or behind a cabinet. Hide where ever they can find a place.  Well, Cho was of the same genration. He had the same training. He knew how they would likely react. He used that training to his advantage. He locked them in and shot them as they cowerd in their hiding places.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:50:42 AM EST
The guy was not more than twenty feet away.  That does not take an amazing amount of skill.  He just walked in and started shooting lots of rounds.  Some of those had to hit their intended targets.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:50:55 AM EST
height=8
Quoted:
height=8
Quoted:

Each victim had no less than 3 shots in them.






i18.tinypic.com/47lphyh.jpg

3 rounds at 25yds… I don't consider myself a particularly 'good' shot.


ANdy


And how long did you take to aim at that. At a Range, in control. Its a different world under pressure. The physio/psychological response your body goes through, especciually untrained would account for a differnet picture. I would guess that if I made you run 20 ft, and try that again, in rapid succession, you would miss altogether. I am not trying ot offend you, just mak apoint that what the killer did, was not easy, especially without a lot of gun familiarity.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:54:28 AM EST
Of course no one knows yet how many of the bullets actually traveled through multiple people.   There's been more than one shooting where the bullet traveled through the first person and ended up in another.

A crowded room would be one of those places where you would have that probability.

Pray for them.


Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:57:03 AM EST

Quoted:

Quoted:
Here is a drill

Take 5 watermelons

Place them 3-4 feet apart in a line at about 4 feet off the ground.

Now start at the first one and in a quick, yet controlled pace, walk down the line putting 3 rounds into each from 4-5 feet.

See how many times you fail to hit the watermelons.


I agree, and this is the basis of my questioning. I am pretty good shot, but even at clsoe range, the first few shots help me get my bearings, and I am at a range, not at a classroom, with heart rate most likely through the roof. Although, maybe psychos can remoain calm when engaging in activities that would stress most out.

I know the reports said he was walking around, but stopping to fire would not be unheard of. Walk, stop/take a shot, walk some more.

If you take a few shots to get your bearings to hit a man-sized target, I pray you never have to use your gun in self-defense. I also think it may be an indication that your training isn't what it could be.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:58:23 AM EST


Quoted:


We all know that a handgun is a hard tool to be accurate with, especially if untrained and shooting at a distance of more than 10yds, under distress.


What makes you think he was shooting at anything near 10 yards, much less that he was firing at targets further away?

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:59:37 AM EST

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

And how long did you take to aim at that. At a Range, in control. Its a different world under pressure. The physio/psychological response your body goes through, especciually untrained would account for a differnet picture. I would guess that if I made you run 20 ft, and try that again, in rapid succession, you would miss altogether. I am not trying ot offend you, just mak apoint that what the killer did, was not easy, especially without a lot of gun familiarity.



You're looking at if from a 'normal' perspective, the guy was a psycho, so the normal flight/flight reaction was probably missing. In his mind it was probably no different to taking shots on a Playstation.

ANdy
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:03:20 AM EST

Quoted:
I hear that...but I feel as though the Target Rich Environment still would have been chaotic enough to distress the shooter. Plus, by all acounts I have heard, he did nto actually enter the room, but instead stood in the door way shooting.



IMHO,
Your forgetting his mindset...he was not distressed ..at all. He was completely in control
of his emotions, cause he had no emotion. No fear , nothing. Just blank.
His planning of all aspects of this event leads me to believe that he probaly did practice
his skills. He would not have had to ever go to the range to refine his pistol skills to the leval needed (dry fire drill/mag changes ..etc).
He didn't need to go in the room. I don't think he wanted to get close enough for anyone to foil his plans.(more calculation/planning on his part, leave nothing to chance.)
He knew exactly what the response would be from his victims, paralysis/confusion.
Saddly he had plenty of time. I believe it was 23 mins. from start to finish.
My .02 and worth just that.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:04:26 AM EST
height=8
Quoted:
height=8
Quoted:
height=8
Quoted:
Here is a drill

Take 5 watermelons

Place them 3-4 feet apart in a line at about 4 feet off the ground.

Now start at the first one and in a quick, yet controlled pace, walk down the line putting 3 rounds into each from 4-5 feet.

See how many times you fail to hit the watermelons.


I agree, and this is the basis of my questioning. I am pretty good shot, but even at clsoe range, the first few shots help me get my bearings, and I am at a range, not at a classroom, with heart rate most likely through the roof. Although, maybe psychos can remoain calm when engaging in activities that would stress most out.

I know the reports said he was walking around, but stopping to fire would not be unheard of. Walk, stop/take a shot, walk some more.

If you take a few shots to get your bearings to hit a man-sized target, I pray you never have to use your gun in self-defense. I also think it may be an indication that your training isn't what it could be.


Im pretty confident in my skills thank you, my quote was in response to the picture of a target with a 2 inch group at 25yds. Big deal with range shooting.  

my perspective is more from what I heard about the killer. I am eagerly waiting to hear about how he went aboutu developing these skills. Dry firing in a dorm room is a lot different that shooting at a target or a person. Perhaps he went to the range 2-3 times a week like i do. Not sure, but if he did, I am sure someone will come forward and recognize this.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:04:53 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:09:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:11:17 AM EST

Quoted:
Your forgetting his mindset...he was not distressed ..at all. He was completely in control
of his emotions, cause he had no emotion. No fear , nothing. Just blank.


I disagree with this part.  He wasnt blank, he wasnt emotionless.

He was angry.

Not hysterical hissy-fit crazy mad.  

But focused pissed-off, tunnel-vision angry.

In that state outside distractions no longer matter, because they arent seen/heard/reconized.

As I said in another thread, he was also a delusional fuck.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:11:52 AM EST
After buying those guns, I'm betting he spent 100's of hours dry firing at people on the TV and practicing mag changes.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:32:43 AM EST

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Here is a drill

Take 5 watermelons

Place them 3-4 feet apart in a line at about 4 feet off the ground.

Now start at the first one and in a quick, yet controlled pace, walk down the line putting 3 rounds into each from 4-5 feet.

See how many times you fail to hit the watermelons.


I agree, and this is the basis of my questioning. I am pretty good shot, but even at clsoe range, the first few shots help me get my bearings, and I am at a range, not at a classroom, with heart rate most likely through the roof. Although, maybe psychos can remoain calm when engaging in activities that would stress most out.

I know the reports said he was walking around, but stopping to fire would not be unheard of. Walk, stop/take a shot, walk some more.

If you take a few shots to get your bearings to hit a man-sized target, I pray you never have to use your gun in self-defense. I also think it may be an indication that your training isn't what it could be.


Im pretty confident in my skills thank you, my quote was in response to the picture of a target with a 2 inch group at 25yds. Big deal with range shooting.  

my perspective is more from what I heard about the killer. I am eagerly waiting to hear about how he went aboutu developing these skills. Dry firing in a dorm room is a lot different that shooting at a target or a person. Perhaps he went to the range 2-3 times a week like i do. Not sure, but if he did, I am sure someone will come forward and recognize this.

So what if he did go to a range? It's not illegal. We also don't know how he spent his time during the academic breaks. I know I try to time my range trips for times when it is less crowded. I couldn't tell you descriptions of the few people I do see at the range two days after the trip. I also find it wholly unremarkable when a man goes to the range alone. In fact, most of the time that is exactly what I see. I tend to take more notice of groups than single people. Why? A lone person at the range is more likely, in my experience, to be serious about shooting and is usually safer. Groups are too busy coking and joking and usually end up flagging the firing line.

I also think you need to take a look at your training because of two statements you made. First it is not all that difficult to shoot a gun accurately at 10 yards. Second, you said "but even at close range, the first few shots help me get my bearings." At close range you should have no trouble hitting a human sized target "cold." That's what he did.

You also need to be familiar with Japanese shooting competitors. There was a Japanese man who, a couple of years back, came into the US and won a competition. He had a week's worth of firing the actual gun. All his practice was dry fire and airsoft. So yes you can get quite good with dry fire, certainly good enough for the feat on Monday.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:36:33 AM EST
Let me reiterate


If you carry a handgun for defensive purposes and you can't put your first shot into COM from 10 yards cold, you need to spend more time training. You owe that to yourself and those around you.


Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:39:04 AM EST

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


Im pretty confident in my skills thank you, my quote was in response to the picture of a target with a 2 inch group at 25yds. Big deal with range shooting.  



It's actually a sub 1" group…

Under 10 yards I could hit you in the head all day without barely aiming.

ANdy
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:45:56 AM EST
Answer:  NO

Reasoning:

1.  He was within a confined space that held as many people as the University could possibly seat.  We are not talking about a range with distances of up to 25 yards here.All those people in a "GUN FREE" zone packing in together as they tried to escape though a single door perhaps (only two doors tops to enter or exit a classroom).  Would have been so easy to pick-off these people who knew were completely defenseless.

2.  Magazine changes and reloads can be done well with practice that does not require a lot of range time, but could be largely done at home.  He had all the time in the world to reload since there wasn't anyone who was armed or willing to confront him.

3.  I'm sure that he had made a few range trips himself to target practice and I suspect that the reason he purchased the Walther first in .22LR has so that he could learn how to shoot before he purchased the Glock G-17.  So there was some planning on his part done and he appears to have a hunting/shooting vest on and probably did purchase a number of magazines for both pistols.  That said, doing that doesn't make him a super shooter just someone with basic common sense.

If he had prepared his whole farewell package he sent to NBC ahead of time and sent it in before the first shooting that would suggest that he had panned on doing what he did that day. However, he stopped back at his dorm before the heading out to kill more than the girl and her RA to tape that crap and mail it.

I think he just had a fantasy about killing a lot of people, took some steps to live it out, and for whatever reason something snapped that day causing him to put his plan intio action.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:52:29 AM EST
height=8
Quoted:
Let me reiterate


If you carry a handgun for defensive purposes and you can't put your first shot into COM from 10 yards cold, you need to spend more time training. You owe that to yourself and those around you.




Agreed, I feel the same way. And for YOUR comfort, I can. More time at the range, with the weapons is good for anyone.

You seem to like to challenge others, and for the last time, I am speaking about someone in genreal not me or you. I am personally curious at what he did to prepare. Its just a curioisty so please stop challenging others on their skills. I am mentally trying to decipher all the evidence to get the best idea of what happened.

I hate to give the douche any credit.  
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:55:06 AM EST
he also used HP instead of FMJ.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18186072/


Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:55:41 AM EST
Maybe he'd simply developed no bad habits.  The first timers always seem to out-shoot me.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:07:07 AM EST

Quoted:

Quoted:
Your forgetting his mindset...he was not distressed ..at all. He was completely in control
of his emotions, cause he had no emotion. No fear , nothing. Just blank.


I disagree with this part.  He wasnt blank, he wasnt emotionless.

He was angry.

Not hysterical hissy-fit crazy mad.  

But focused pissed-off, tunnel-vision angry.

In that state outside distractions no longer matter, because they arent seen/heard/reconized.

As I said in another thread, he was also a delusional fuck.


+1 I stand corrected. I was thinking this , just didn't say very well.
carry on
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:08:11 AM EST
"Amazing skill" would imply he did head shots on running targets and double taps COM that were tightly grouped.

He hit some people in the hand and shoulder, or chest and leg. He could have closed his eyes as he pulled the trigger and unloaded while swinging the gun in a circle, and got that many hits.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:17:59 AM EST

Quoted:

Quoted:
Let me reiterate


If you carry a handgun for defensive purposes and you can't put your first shot into COM from 10 yards cold, you need to spend more time training. You owe that to yourself and those around you.




Agreed, I feel the same way. And for YOUR comfort, I can. More time at the range, with the weapons is good for anyone.

You seem to like to challenge others, and for the last time, I am speaking about someone in genreal not me or you. I am personally curious at what he did to prepare. Its just a curioisty so please stop challenging others on their skills. I am mentally trying to decipher all the evidence to get the best idea of what happened.

I hate to give the douche any credit.  



well that may explain it right there.  As bad as it may hurt to say, he accomplished what he set out to do.

I don't feel it took an inordinate amount of skill to do it.

Why would he have been nervous? he obviously had made up his mind to die.

I just feel like what he did spoke more to a vicious mindset than it did to any particular skill with a handgun.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:19:34 AM EST
He was shooting and reloading in the classrooms. None of the people who hadn't been shot did a damn thing to stop him, even as he stood there reloading a few feet away.

Given that the police are aware that somebody 20 feet away can stick a knife in you before you can change a magazine, I find that mind-boggling.

When his victims co-operated with the killer, so completely, how can he fail?

These kids had no survival instincts, what-so-ever. Lambs to the slaughter.

This is a good lesson for the terrorists. Where to strike.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:23:02 AM EST
Maybe he had 8 or 10 or 12 magazines. That would make it easy.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:23:41 AM EST

Quoted:
He was shooting and reloading in the classrooms. None of the people who hadn't been shot did a damn thing to stop him, even as he stood there reloading a few feet away.

Given that the police are aware that somebody 20 feet away can stick a knife in you before you can change a magazine, I find that mind-boggling.

When his victims co-operated with the killer, so completely, how can he fail?

These kids had no survival instincts, what-so-ever. Lambs to the slaughter.

The 21feet rule of thumb is in a clear area. Think about this for a minute. The students closest to him were shot. There was gore on the floor. There were overturned desks. All of these things inhibit anyone's ability to get to the shooter.

Not to mention he could always pull a New York reload if it came down to it.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:25:36 AM EST

Quoted:

Quoted:
He was shooting and reloading in the classrooms. None of the people who hadn't been shot did a damn thing to stop him, even as he stood there reloading a few feet away.

Given that the police are aware that somebody 20 feet away can stick a knife in you before you can change a magazine, I find that mind-boggling.

When his victims co-operated with the killer, so completely, how can he fail?

These kids had no survival instincts, what-so-ever. Lambs to the slaughter.

The 21feet rule of thumb is in a clear area. Think about this for a minute. The students closest to him were shot. There was gore on the floor. There were overturned desks. All of these things inhibit anyone's ability to get to the shooter.

Not to mention he could always pull a New York reload if it came down to it.


All true, but I honestly believe that if it had been me, he would be ducking a desk or three while he reloaded.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:32:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:39:52 PM EST

Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


Im pretty confident in my skills thank you, my quote was in response to the picture of a target with a 2 inch group at 25yds. Big deal with range shooting.  



It's actually a sub 1" group…

Under 10 yards I could hit you in the head all day without barely aiming.

ANdy




3 shot groups are not a good indicator of accuracy.

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