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Posted: 7/19/2008 10:17:24 PM EDT
What do you think of persons who do this sort of thing? Do you believe, down to your very core, in the merits of due process, or do you secretly/not-so-secretly laud vigilantes for having the mettle to rain down their own brand of justice?

Fiction likes to paint vigilantes as heroes. Just look at any Marvel Comics superheroes, such as Superman, Spiderman, Batman, The Punisher....nearly all of these guys are vigilantes in some way, shape, or form.
What if the Boondock Saints were real? Remember the video sequence at the end, with all the street interviews and opinions voiced by the Boston locals? In which camp would you be?

In real life, there have been several individuals/groups of individuals that have committed acts of vigilantism, with mixed results. I sometimes recall Old West posses, or El Salvadorean ex-military anti-mobmen, as a couple of examples.

Many of us are equipped well enough to have taken Monrovia by ourselves. Ok...maybe that's an exaggeration (maybe not ), but has the thought/fantasy ever crossed your mind that maybe one day, after you've finally reached your breaking point with all the bullshit cases that liberal courts hear, or after you've had enough of honest hard-working Americans getting the shaft from the powers that be for trivial shit, that perhaps you'd start to introduce to the world your own form of justice?

Link Posted: 7/19/2008 10:20:34 PM EDT
Vigilantes and the practice of such is a two sided coin. When people resort to it as a final option because the ruling class and the rules no longer give them justice then it
is a sad but necessary act. To stoop to the practice as a means to short circuit the justice process without massive evidence that the system is corrupt leads to anarchy.

When Justice becomes available only for the select few then it is no longer justice and vigilantes will appear. When justice is truly blind and meted out fairly then it is not viglanteism....it is crime.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 10:26:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 10:26:34 PM EDT by 22bad]
Depends, are they 100% accurate?

If so, then they are acceptable in SOME situations IMO
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 10:29:57 PM EDT
Too many variables .. it could easily get out of hand.

What was the name of that Dirty Harry movie with the vigilante cops?
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 10:40:23 PM EDT
Magnum Force
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 10:41:35 PM EDT
I know I like it when there's a Death Wish marathon on tv
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 10:41:44 PM EDT
I believe in due process. However, if someone actually witnessed a person commit a terrible crime (like their family being murdered) and then they went and "executed" the killer, I'd have a hard time convicting them of anything.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 10:44:44 PM EDT
Criminals.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 10:46:22 PM EDT
The superheroes almost ALWAYS catch the guy in the act. Superman doesn't kill humans, he gives them to the police and the justice system takes care of them.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 10:46:41 PM EDT
Depends on the situation...........
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 10:47:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 10:50:45 PM EDT by 22bad]

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Criminals.


Wow, you were serious
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=732525

Oops, wrong guy....
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 10:47:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 10:50:03 PM EDT by TheTracker]

Originally Posted By Bloencustoms:
I believe in due process. However, if someone actually witnessed a person commit a terrible crime (like their family being murdered) and then they went and "executed" the killer, I'd have a hard time convicting them of anything.


Something that personal . I wouldn't have a hard time at all deciding if I was on a jury.


OP means more of some one that decides to go out and execute people
based on what he thinks is a crime punishable by death.


I would vote to convict a man or group of people that did that .

Link Posted: 7/19/2008 10:50:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 22bad:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Criminals.


Wow, you were serious
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=732525


Beating someone to death for trying to cut off my balls is not vigilante justice. Vigilante justice is hunting down a criminal after their crime and beating them, killing them, etc.

No offense, but that thread was pretty ridiculous.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 10:54:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 10:55:59 PM EDT by 22bad]

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By 22bad:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Criminals.


Wow, you were serious
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=732525


Beating someone to death for trying to cut off my balls is not vigilante justice. Vigilante justice is hunting down a criminal after their crime and beating them, killing them, etc.

No offense, but that thread was pretty ridiculous.


Sorry, I edited that post to show that I was mistaken, it was TheTracker, not you

No offense taken, the thread was ridiculous, it was done to make a point, which it did
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 10:57:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
What do you think of persons who do this sort of thing? Do you believe, down to your very core, in the merits of due process, or do you secretly/not-so-secretly laud vigilantes for having the mettle to rain down their own brand of justice?

Fiction likes to paint vigilantes as heroes. Just look at any Marvel Comics superheroes, such as Superman, Spiderman, Batman, The Punisher....nearly all of these guys are vigilantes in some way, shape, or form.
What if the Boondock Saints were real? Remember the video sequence at the end, with all the street interviews and opinions voiced by the Boston locals? In which camp would you be?

In real life, there have been several individuals/groups of individuals that have committed acts of vigilantism, with mixed results. I sometimes recall Old West posses, or El Salvadorean ex-military anti-mobmen, as a couple of examples.

Many of us are equipped well enough to have taken Monrovia by ourselves. Ok...maybe that's an exaggeration (maybe not ), but has the thought/fantasy ever crossed your mind that maybe one day, after you've finally reached your breaking point with all the bullshit cases that liberal courts hear, or after you've had enough of honest hard-working Americans getting the shaft from the powers that be for trivial shit, that perhaps you'd start to introduce to the world your own form of justice?



Never justified...

Justice is the province of the state - anything else leads to mob rule...

The danger of vigilantisim, is that it leads down a road where the 'guilty' are punished for nothing more than pissing off the vigilante(s), real crimes (or lack thereof) not withstanding....

The court system, on the other hand, has checks & balances to stop the above...
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 12:01:00 AM EDT
Watch Star Chamber with Michael Douglas
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 1:51:47 AM EDT
Heroes
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 2:10:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bloencustoms:
I believe in due process. However, if someone actually witnessed a person commit a terrible crime (like their family being murdered) and then they went and "executed" the killer, I'd have a hard time convicting them of anything.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 2:10:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
What do you think of persons who do this sort of thing? Do you believe, down to your very core, in the merits of due process, or do you secretly/not-so-secretly laud vigilantes for having the mettle to rain down their own brand of justice?

Fiction likes to paint vigilantes as heroes. Just look at any Marvel Comics superheroes, such as Superman, Spiderman, Batman, The Punisher....nearly all of these guys are vigilantes in some way, shape, or form.
What if the Boondock Saints were real? Remember the video sequence at the end, with all the street interviews and opinions voiced by the Boston locals? In which camp would you be?

In real life, there have been several individuals/groups of individuals that have committed acts of vigilantism, with mixed results. I sometimes recall Old West posses, or El Salvadorean ex-military anti-mobmen, as a couple of examples.

Many of us are equipped well enough to have taken Monrovia by ourselves. Ok...maybe that's an exaggeration (maybe not ), but has the thought/fantasy ever crossed your mind that maybe one day, after you've finally reached your breaking point with all the bullshit cases that liberal courts hear, or after you've had enough of honest hard-working Americans getting the shaft from the powers that be for trivial shit, that perhaps you'd start to introduce to the world your own form of justice?



Never justified...

Justice is the province of the state - anything else leads to mob rule...

The danger of vigilantisim, is that it leads down a road where the 'guilty' are punished for nothing more than pissing off the vigilante(s), real crimes (or lack thereof) not withstanding....

The court system, on the other hand, has checks & balances to stop the above...



What about when the state completely fails at that? A real crime was committed but for one reason or another , justice will not be served?
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 5:15:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sprayandpray:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
What do you think of persons who do this sort of thing? Do you believe, down to your very core, in the merits of due process, or do you secretly/not-so-secretly laud vigilantes for having the mettle to rain down their own brand of justice?

Fiction likes to paint vigilantes as heroes. Just look at any Marvel Comics superheroes, such as Superman, Spiderman, Batman, The Punisher....nearly all of these guys are vigilantes in some way, shape, or form.
What if the Boondock Saints were real? Remember the video sequence at the end, with all the street interviews and opinions voiced by the Boston locals? In which camp would you be?

In real life, there have been several individuals/groups of individuals that have committed acts of vigilantism, with mixed results. I sometimes recall Old West posses, or El Salvadorean ex-military anti-mobmen, as a couple of examples.

Many of us are equipped well enough to have taken Monrovia by ourselves. Ok...maybe that's an exaggeration (maybe not ), but has the thought/fantasy ever crossed your mind that maybe one day, after you've finally reached your breaking point with all the bullshit cases that liberal courts hear, or after you've had enough of honest hard-working Americans getting the shaft from the powers that be for trivial shit, that perhaps you'd start to introduce to the world your own form of justice?



Never justified...

Justice is the province of the state - anything else leads to mob rule...

The danger of vigilantisim, is that it leads down a road where the 'guilty' are punished for nothing more than pissing off the vigilante(s), real crimes (or lack thereof) not withstanding....

The court system, on the other hand, has checks & balances to stop the above...



What about when the state completely fails at that? A real crime was committed but for one reason or another , justice will not be served?


It happens and no, taking the law into your own hands at that point is not morally permissible.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 5:18:11 AM EDT
Sometimes, the justice system just doesn't work as planned and vigilantism doesn't sound bad in theory.

But, due process, the right to a trial, that's just as important as any other right...as much as some scumbags deserve to die, they also deserve a fair and proper trial for their crimes.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 5:21:07 AM EDT
Its good. No women, no childeren... (Few exceptions)
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 5:23:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 5:25:54 AM EDT by jbombelli]
If the system doesn't work, then you gotta do what you gotta do.

Heroes in that instance. But in my opinion you should let the system have the first crack at justice. Only if it utterly fails, as it sometimes does, should a person resort to meting out their own justice.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 5:24:46 AM EDT
Theres no justice like angry mob justice.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 5:26:19 AM EDT
if the target of your vigilantism isn't an immediate family member who has been irreparably harmed, then you're just a criminal.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 5:33:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thexrayboy:
Vigilantes and the practice of such is a two sided coin. When people resort to it as a final option because the ruling class and the rules no longer give them justice then it
is a sad but necessary act. To stoop to the practice as a means to short circuit the justice process without massive evidence that the system is corrupt leads to anarchy.

When Justice becomes available only for the select few then it is no longer justice and vigilantes will appear. When justice is truly blind and meted out fairly then it is not viglanteism....it is crime.


This.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 5:35:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 5:36:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thexrayboy:
Vigilantes and the practice of such is a two sided coin. When people resort to it as a final option because the ruling class and the rules no longer give them justice then it
is a sad but necessary act. To stoop to the practice as a means to short circuit the justice process without massive evidence that the system is corrupt leads to anarchy.

When Justice becomes available only for the select few then it is no longer justice and vigilantes will appear. When justice is truly blind and meted out fairly then it is not viglanteism....it is crime.


Concur.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 5:44:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Maryland_Shooter:
Watch Star Chamber with Michael Douglas


And The Oxbow Incident

That said, if I were on a jury regarding an incident like the one in Tennessee (woman goes to a job site and whacks the guy who raped her daughter who alegedly said, "What're you gonna DO about it?") my first response would be

Meh.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 5:45:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 5:46:38 AM EDT by bigcraig]
Interesting question.

Are vigilantes heroes, no.

But given the "right" circumstances, vigilante justice is perfectly acceptable IMHO.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 5:53:03 AM EDT
The problem with the word "vigilante" is that nowadays people don't even know what it means.

The word "vigilante" is applied to someone who successfully defends himself, overcoming an attacker in a life or death situation.

Or as a cop once told me when I was seen carrying a firearm on my own property, "What are you, some kind of vigilante?"

Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:02:48 AM EDT


The ultimate Vigilante...

Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:04:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
The problem with the word "vigilante" is that nowadays people don't even know what it means.




The term vigilante stems from the name "Vigiles Urbani" given to the nightwatchmen of Ancient Rome who were tasked with fighting fires and keeping a lookout for runaway slaves and burglars.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_vigilantes

Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:08:58 AM EDT
Criminal. When you ignore the rule of law and the processes that bring people to justice, you become what you are fighting against.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:15:02 AM EDT

As long as there right, if there wrong there just another criminal. The whole thing about the legal system, police force etc. is there is suppossed to be checks and ballances. Basically vigilante is taking something that is serious, imprtant and needs training in your own hands. Like lets say someone decided to do a operation on someone that is not a doctor, well if they couldn't get a doctor and they saved someones life then they are a hero. On the other hand if someone comes to them with a simple medical problem and ends up dead, well string them up. I don't think being
a vigilante itself is bad. As for the possibility of the legal system not doing the job and taking the law into ones hands, thats complicated. Lets say someone joined some secret group and was given secret important missions. They are probably fools that got conned and the ones there taking out are in the way of some drug dealers business. Now if the target is some guy who molested 200 children and the judge lets him off with probation, if I was on the jury I would call solving that problem justifiable temporary insanity. There is a reason many important matters are to be decided by juries not just some guy got a expert label. Sure juries have lost there power since so many prosecutors and lawyers have gotten such a good understanding of psychology or socialogy. Still the power is still in the hands of the people if only they realized that is how its suppossed to work.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:22:12 AM EDT
I think vigilantes will get it right more often than not.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:35:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Sgt_Rock:
I think vigilantes will get it right more often than not.
So what about the poor sap that had nothing to do with the crime? SOL?
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:42:28 AM EDT
Bernard Goetz; the NYC "subway vigilante".
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:46:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 6:50:37 AM EDT by Stan08]
Very slippery slope. Catching them alive for violent acts and turning them into the justice system is one thing. Forming up mobs and lubing up your M4gery is another. Professional law enforcement is indoctrinated into the ladder of force, ethics, public safey, and professionalism. Bubba with his M4gery may be less discriminating with his use of force and target selection. Add hate, anger, racism, xenophobia and you have a whole other monster.

However, Hollywood seems to love them:

*Death Wish
*The Equilizer
*Magnum PI
*The Punisher
*Batman (almost all superheros as they are not sworn law enforcement)
*Man on Fire
*Most Steven Segal movies that are not military based
etc, etc.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 8:55:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By The_Sgt_Rock:
I think vigilantes will get it right more often than not.
So what about the poor sap that had nothing to do with the crime? SOL?


Yep, it's all fun and games until an innocent man is swinging from the end of a rope.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 8:59:17 AM EDT
V
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 9:32:24 AM EDT
In a society such as ours, with a fairly decently working justice system... 95% of the time it is wrong.

In a society such as Zimbabwe, WW2 Gemany, etc. where the government/system is not properly fulfilling its duties, there is a MUCH better chance of it being good.

If the powers that be are blatantly doing evil/wrong things, and/or NOT punishing people who are committing the evil/wrong things, it is acceptable, IMO, to enforce one's own punishment on the evil/wrongdoers.

This would be limited to crimes which are actually harmful to others, not any of the stupid crap that is "illegal" just "because". Murder, rape, assault, theft, arson, sabotage, etc. are examples of things that should (or might, depending on the severity) be punishable... by the govt or system primarily, but by others if the first fails (habitually).
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 12:14:10 PM EDT
it's not always a good thing......but they have their place.......
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 12:23:17 PM EDT
Only justified in the event of severe breakdown of government

We pay police and courts so that we don't have to organize posses and dish out street justice.

But I'd be lying if I said I didn't sympathize with them.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 12:26:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sprayandpray:
Depends on the situation...........
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