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Posted: 10/29/2013 5:33:12 AM EST
They sure are pushing hard...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4BHXD8cTYM


My prediction...single payer will become the way of the land, because corporations, the fsa and the young want it. Same way Obama got elected TWICE.


This obamacare blow up is just a way to force everybody on Medicaid.

Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:07:10 AM EST
it's going to happen. the republicans are just as culpable as the democrats. the health care system has been a shambles for a long time, and the republicans wouldn't do anything to fix the problems. they were bought off by big insurance and didn't give a damn about people like me, who are self employed and were priced out of the system.

all they kept harping on were "medical savings accounts". you were supposed to save money in an account somewhere and use it to pay medical bills when you needed it. what bull***! nobody in my tax bracket is able to save much money. anything I COULD save wouldn't pay for the ambulance ride to the hospital.

don't talk to me about "free markets" in health care. there is no free market. this country decided that no one is going to be turned away. so people like me, who don't work for a large employer, and don't work for the government, are left to pay.

so people were desperate enough to consider a solution that would keep them from losing everything when they had an accident, and we ended up with obamacare. thanks, republicans. not one of you voted for it, but you could have headed this off. too bad the lobbyists for insurance companies mean more to you than the rest of us.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:00:19 AM EST
You don't want free shit? What's wrong with you?



Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:17:22 AM EST
Letting illegal aliens into this country contributed to this problem. Forcing Hospitals to give away free services contributed to this problem. Making illegal aliens citizens because they were born here illegally contributed to this problem. Democrat Lawyers suing doctors for every thing contributed to this problem. Going to a one payer system is NOT the solution.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:19:44 AM EST
Medicare/adie's super cheap and fraud free operation speaks for itself.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:20:47 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Thedude27:
Medicare/adie's super cheap and fraud free operation speaks for itself.
View Quote
lol
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:22:34 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
it's going to happen. the republicans are just as culpable as the democrats. the health care system has been a shambles for a long time, and the republicans wouldn't do anything to fix the problems. they were bought off by big insurance and didn't give a damn about people like me, who are self employed and were priced out of the system.

all they kept harping on were "medical savings accounts". you were supposed to save money in an account somewhere and use it to pay medical bills when you needed it. what bull***! nobody in my tax bracket is able to save much money. anything I COULD save wouldn't pay for the ambulance ride to the hospital.

don't talk to me about "free markets" in health care. there is no free market. this country decided that no one is going to be turned away. so people like me, who don't work for a large employer, and don't work for the government, are left to pay.

so people were desperate enough to consider a solution that would keep them from losing everything when they had an accident, and we ended up with obamacare. thanks, republicans. not one of you voted for it, but you could have headed this off. too bad the lobbyists for insurance companies mean more to you than the rest of us.
View Quote


Unreal! You actually blame Republicans for Obamacare. No wonder you are in a lower tax bracket...
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:28:00 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
<stupid cry baby liberal bullshit>
View Quote

Tears.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:28:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 9:37:51 AM EST by Thedude27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
all they kept harping on were "medical savings accounts". you were supposed to save money in an account somewhere and use it to pay medical bills when you needed it. what bull***! nobody in my tax bracket is able to save much money. anything I COULD save wouldn't pay for the ambulance ride to the hospital.
View Quote



Your ignorance is sickening. Let me explain how a HSA/High deductable plan works. You pay an extremely small fee(well until shitbamacare hit you did) for a high deductible plan (at my work, work pays the entire amount, and its the only plan they kept so its obviously the cheapest for them) than your normal premiums instead of going to the insurance company go into a savings account. You use that money to pay for incidental care up to the deductable amount (in my case 5000/10000 in network/out of network year). If you use up the entire 5000, insurance then pays the rest. If you do not use it up (which is pretty normal) that pretax money sits in a savings account collecting interest till you need to use it. So you start racking up a pretty good size savings account, for the years you may be unemployed or if you get an illness that knocks you out for a year, or you get old. So instead of pissing it away to the insurance company you get to use it. Not only does this help slove the whole I dont have any money later in life problem, it also encourages prices dropping since you now care how much you pay for your health care and prevents wasting resources. HSA's ARE THE SOLUTION to the problem. Even if you have goverment subsidizing that shit it would still be cheaper.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:30:35 AM EST

I could only stand about 50 seconds of that LSD induced crowd.

Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:36:21 AM EST
Between Pell grants and heavily subsidized loans, higher education in the US has very nearly become a de facto single payer system.

And just look at how much cheaper college tuition is these days.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:37:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By Cliffhanger:
They sure are pushing hard...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4BHXD8cTYM


My prediction...single payer will become the way of the land, because corporations, the fsa and the young want it. Same way Obama got elected TWICE.


This obamacare blow up is just a way to force everybody on Medicaid.

View Quote


I disagree. The way he got elected was rampant fraud and corruption.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:10:11 AM EST
Sorry but I could take only about 30 seconds of that shit.

Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:12:04 AM EST
We'll get there...that's inevitable. Timeline's not quite figured out yet, but we'll get there.

At that point, I really don't care if I live here or find a job in my wife's home country...there won't be much difference.

We'll have single payer...then comes VAT...b/c...well...we have to pay for single payer....it's a downhill slide once that final nail gets hammered in.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:14:12 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
it's going to happen. the republicans are just as culpable as the democrats. the health care system has been a shambles for a long time, and the republicans wouldn't do anything to fix the problems. they were bought off by big insurance and didn't give a damn about people like me, who are self employed and were priced out of the system.

all they kept harping on were "medical savings accounts". you were supposed to save money in an account somewhere and use it to pay medical bills when you needed it. what bull***! nobody in my tax bracket is able to save much money. anything I COULD save wouldn't pay for the ambulance ride to the hospital.

don't talk to me about "free markets" in health care. there is no free market. this country decided that no one is going to be turned away. so people like me, who don't work for a large employer, and don't work for the government, are left to pay.

so people were desperate enough to consider a solution that would keep them from losing everything when they had an accident, and we ended up with obamacare. thanks, republicans. not one of you voted for it, but you could have headed this off. too bad the lobbyists for insurance companies mean more to you than the rest of us.
View Quote

Hate to break it to you, but EVERYONE'S premiums have been skyrocketing, not just yours. Well.....I can't speak for .gov employees, so maybe not everyone? I can't figure how insurance companies are always slated as the "bad guy". They are entitled to strive for profitability, and they have no obligation to become unprofitable for your benefit. If you don't like the insurance companies, don't buy a policy. Well, I guess that isn't an option anymore.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:16:21 AM EST
yeah...I want single payer.

Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:17:36 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By stevelish:

Hate to break it to you, but EVERYONE'S premiums have been skyrocketing, not just yours. Well.....I can't speak for .gov employees, so maybe not everyone? I can't figure how insurance companies are always slated as the "bad guy". They are entitled to strive for profitability, and they have no obligation to become unprofitable for your benefit. If you don't like the insurance companies, don't buy a policy. Well, I guess that isn't an option anymore.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By stevelish:
Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
it's going to happen. the republicans are just as culpable as the democrats. the health care system has been a shambles for a long time, and the republicans wouldn't do anything to fix the problems. they were bought off by big insurance and didn't give a damn about people like me, who are self employed and were priced out of the system.

all they kept harping on were "medical savings accounts". you were supposed to save money in an account somewhere and use it to pay medical bills when you needed it. what bull***! nobody in my tax bracket is able to save much money. anything I COULD save wouldn't pay for the ambulance ride to the hospital.

don't talk to me about "free markets" in health care. there is no free market. this country decided that no one is going to be turned away. so people like me, who don't work for a large employer, and don't work for the government, are left to pay.

so people were desperate enough to consider a solution that would keep them from losing everything when they had an accident, and we ended up with obamacare. thanks, republicans. not one of you voted for it, but you could have headed this off. too bad the lobbyists for insurance companies mean more to you than the rest of us.

Hate to break it to you, but EVERYONE'S premiums have been skyrocketing, not just yours. Well.....I can't speak for .gov employees, so maybe not everyone? I can't figure how insurance companies are always slated as the "bad guy". They are entitled to strive for profitability, and they have no obligation to become unprofitable for your benefit. If you don't like the insurance companies, don't buy a policy. Well, I guess that isn't an option anymore.
Medicare...Medicaid...

That's a big driver in premium increases.

Would love to see the chart of when those were enacted and premium percentage increases before and since.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:20:07 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RECONSIX:

I could only stand about 50 seconds of that LSD induced crowd.

View Quote


All I could think about was how easily I could take both of those chicks away from those Bieber-esque betas.

You know, hypothetically, if I was then willing to then deal with whiny liberal women... which I'm not.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:21:57 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gunham:
Letting illegal aliens into this country contributed to this problem. Forcing Hospitals to give away free services contributed to this problem. Making illegal aliens citizens because they were born here illegally contributed to this problem. Democrat Lawyers suing doctors for every thing contributed to this problem. Going to a one payer system is NOT the solution.
View Quote

Nailed it.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:29:25 AM EST
2009?
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:30:11 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gunham:
Letting illegal aliens into this country contributed to this problem. Forcing Hospitals to give away free services contributed to this problem. Making illegal aliens citizens because they were born here illegally contributed to this problem. Democrat Lawyers suing doctors for every thing contributed to this problem. Going to a one payer system is NOT the solution.
View Quote

This is a big problem in So Cal and not just from illegal aliens. I heard a guy on talk radio admitting that they showed up to the ER to have their baby delivered in a hospital and they told the nurses and administrators "in Spanish" that they were "not documented." They were actually both US citizens but didn't have the money or insurance to cover the on average $25k cost of a hospital birth + stay. Since these hospitals are pretty much all "don't ask, don't tell", people like this and illegal aliens get away with passing their medical costs on every one else.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 10:23:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 10:29:31 AM EST by tetoncounty]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By texasbagman:


Unreal! You actually blame Republicans for Obamacare. No wonder you are in a lower tax bracket...
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Originally Posted By texasbagman:
Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
it's going to happen. the republicans are just as culpable as the democrats. the health care system has been a shambles for a long time, and the republicans wouldn't do anything to fix the problems. they were bought off by big insurance and didn't give a damn about people like me, who are self employed and were priced out of the system.

all they kept harping on were "medical savings accounts". you were supposed to save money in an account somewhere and use it to pay medical bills when you needed it. what bull***! nobody in my tax bracket is able to save much money. anything I COULD save wouldn't pay for the ambulance ride to the hospital.

don't talk to me about "free markets" in health care. there is no free market. this country decided that no one is going to be turned away. so people like me, who don't work for a large employer, and don't work for the government, are left to pay.

so people were desperate enough to consider a solution that would keep them from losing everything when they had an accident, and we ended up with obamacare. thanks, republicans. not one of you voted for it, but you could have headed this off. too bad the lobbyists for insurance companies mean more to you than the rest of us.


Unreal! You actually blame Republicans for Obamacare. No wonder you are in a lower tax bracket...


republicans had eight years with bush and they could see this coming. all they did was create another entitlement: the drug plan.

the handwriting was on the wall ten years ago. premiums were soaring. big labor, and gov (medicare, Medicaid) squeezed the insurance corps to keep their premiums as low as possible. lobbyists paid off congress to avoid ANY regulation that would help the middle class. so millions like me were ****ed.

the republicans could have gotten behind something as simple as letting people buy plans across state lines. that would have cut my insurance in half. they weren't interested, because they figured I had no choice but to vote for them anyway. guess who went hunting on election day in 2008 and 2012? guess where I'll be in 2016? republican party is dead, time to pull the plug.

yeah, I blame republicans. and democrats. they're ALL corrupt.

no, I'm not in a low tax bracket. it's because I'm successful, and SELF EMPLOYED that I'm getting screwed. I'm simply not successful enough to make the required "donations' to congress for special treatment.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 10:26:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 10:38:37 AM EST by tetoncounty]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Thedude27:



Your ignorance is sickening. Let me explain how a HSA/High deductable plan works. You pay an extremely small fee(well until shitbamacare hit you did) for a high deductible plan (at my work, work pays the entire amount, and its the only plan they kept so its obviously the cheapest for them) than your normal premiums instead of going to the insurance company go into a savings account. You use that money to pay for incidental care up to the deductable amount (in my case 5000/10000 in network/out of network year). If you use up the entire 5000, insurance then pays the rest. If you do not use it up (which is pretty normal) that pretax money sits in a savings account collecting interest till you need to use it. So you start racking up a pretty good size savings account, for the years you may be unemployed or if you get an illness that knocks you out for a year, or you get old. So instead of pissing it away to the insurance company you get to use it. Not only does this help slove the whole I dont have any money later in life problem, it also encourages prices dropping since you now care how much you pay for your health care and prevents wasting resources. HSA's ARE THE SOLUTION to the problem. Even if you have goverment subsidizing that shit it would still be cheaper.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Thedude27:
Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
all they kept harping on were "medical savings accounts". you were supposed to save money in an account somewhere and use it to pay medical bills when you needed it. what bull***! nobody in my tax bracket is able to save much money. anything I COULD save wouldn't pay for the ambulance ride to the hospital.



Your ignorance is sickening. Let me explain how a HSA/High deductable plan works. You pay an extremely small fee(well until shitbamacare hit you did) for a high deductible plan (at my work, work pays the entire amount, and its the only plan they kept so its obviously the cheapest for them) than your normal premiums instead of going to the insurance company go into a savings account. You use that money to pay for incidental care up to the deductable amount (in my case 5000/10000 in network/out of network year). If you use up the entire 5000, insurance then pays the rest. If you do not use it up (which is pretty normal) that pretax money sits in a savings account collecting interest till you need to use it. So you start racking up a pretty good size savings account, for the years you may be unemployed or if you get an illness that knocks you out for a year, or you get old. So instead of pissing it away to the insurance company you get to use it. Not only does this help slove the whole I dont have any money later in life problem, it also encourages prices dropping since you now care how much you pay for your health care and prevents wasting resources. HSA's ARE THE SOLUTION to the problem. Even if you have goverment subsidizing that shit it would still be cheaper.


HSA's don't work that way for the self employed. as you've stated, you are getting the free ride at work. your health care benefits should be taxable, and then you and I will be on a level playing field.

when I threw in the towel they wanted over $1K/month for a plan. for a completely healthy guy with no preexisting conditions.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 10:35:15 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By stevelish:

Hate to break it to you, but EVERYONE'S premiums have been skyrocketing, not just yours. Well.....I can't speak for .gov employees, so maybe not everyone? I can't figure how insurance companies are always slated as the "bad guy". They are entitled to strive for profitability, and they have no obligation to become unprofitable for your benefit. If you don't like the insurance companies, don't buy a policy. Well, I guess that isn't an option anymore.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By stevelish:
Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
it's going to happen. the republicans are just as culpable as the democrats. the health care system has been a shambles for a long time, and the republicans wouldn't do anything to fix the problems. they were bought off by big insurance and didn't give a damn about people like me, who are self employed and were priced out of the system.

all they kept harping on were "medical savings accounts". you were supposed to save money in an account somewhere and use it to pay medical bills when you needed it. what bull***! nobody in my tax bracket is able to save much money. anything I COULD save wouldn't pay for the ambulance ride to the hospital.

don't talk to me about "free markets" in health care. there is no free market. this country decided that no one is going to be turned away. so people like me, who don't work for a large employer, and don't work for the government, are left to pay.

so people were desperate enough to consider a solution that would keep them from losing everything when they had an accident, and we ended up with obamacare. thanks, republicans. not one of you voted for it, but you could have headed this off. too bad the lobbyists for insurance companies mean more to you than the rest of us.

Hate to break it to you, but EVERYONE'S premiums have been skyrocketing, not just yours. Well.....I can't speak for .gov employees, so maybe not everyone? I can't figure how insurance companies are always slated as the "bad guy". They are entitled to strive for profitability, and they have no obligation to become unprofitable for your benefit. If you don't like the insurance companies, don't buy a policy. Well, I guess that isn't an option anymore.


insurance is a heavily regulated marketplace, for good reason. there is NO free market in health care or health insurance. last I heard the insurance companies were doing fine.
-they shouldn't be allowed to charge me three times as much as a guy who does the same work, and who works for some major player who can "negotiate" a deal. nothing free market about throwing the people without connections under the bus. nothing free market about expanding Medicaid every time someone needs votes in an election.
-if you like competition, let me go outside my state to buy a plan. insurance companies lobby against that change
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 10:37:27 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By robplumm:
Medicare...Medicaid...

That's a big driver in premium increases.

Would love to see the chart of when those were enacted and premium percentage increases before and since.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By robplumm:
Originally Posted By stevelish:
Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
it's going to happen. the republicans are just as culpable as the democrats. the health care system has been a shambles for a long time, and the republicans wouldn't do anything to fix the problems. they were bought off by big insurance and didn't give a damn about people like me, who are self employed and were priced out of the system.

all they kept harping on were "medical savings accounts". you were supposed to save money in an account somewhere and use it to pay medical bills when you needed it. what bull***! nobody in my tax bracket is able to save much money. anything I COULD save wouldn't pay for the ambulance ride to the hospital.

don't talk to me about "free markets" in health care. there is no free market. this country decided that no one is going to be turned away. so people like me, who don't work for a large employer, and don't work for the government, are left to pay.

so people were desperate enough to consider a solution that would keep them from losing everything when they had an accident, and we ended up with obamacare. thanks, republicans. not one of you voted for it, but you could have headed this off. too bad the lobbyists for insurance companies mean more to you than the rest of us.

Hate to break it to you, but EVERYONE'S premiums have been skyrocketing, not just yours. Well.....I can't speak for .gov employees, so maybe not everyone? I can't figure how insurance companies are always slated as the "bad guy". They are entitled to strive for profitability, and they have no obligation to become unprofitable for your benefit. If you don't like the insurance companies, don't buy a policy. Well, I guess that isn't an option anymore.
Medicare...Medicaid...

That's a big driver in premium increases.

Would love to see the chart of when those were enacted and premium percentage increases before and since.


like I said, no free market in health care. all the "special" people at the top and the bottom get breaks, or free care. my property taxes pay for a hospital that delivers anchor babies and treats deadbeats for free. I can't use that hospital, I would lose my property. go figure.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 10:37:39 AM EST
Let me know how you're going to pay for single payer when the current cost of medicine in this country is pretty much equal to the entire federal budget. That program will collapse the government is pretty much no time what so ever. You cannot control cost because to do so would mean that for every dollar you control that's one dollar out of GDP. Everybody in Washington knows this, that's why we got Obamacare. It's nothing more than a giant asset stripping scheme designed to keep this current medical scam afloat.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 10:42:22 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tetoncounty:


HSA's don't work that way for the self employed. as you've stated, you are getting the free ride at work. your health care benefits should be taxable, and then you and I will be on a level playing field.

when I threw in the towel they wanted over $1K/month for a plan. for a completely healthy guy with no preexisting conditions.
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Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
Originally Posted By Thedude27:
Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
all they kept harping on were "medical savings accounts". you were supposed to save money in an account somewhere and use it to pay medical bills when you needed it. what bull***! nobody in my tax bracket is able to save much money. anything I COULD save wouldn't pay for the ambulance ride to the hospital.



Your ignorance is sickening. Let me explain how a HSA/High deductable plan works. You pay an extremely small fee(well until shitbamacare hit you did) for a high deductible plan (at my work, work pays the entire amount, and its the only plan they kept so its obviously the cheapest for them) than your normal premiums instead of going to the insurance company go into a savings account. You use that money to pay for incidental care up to the deductable amount (in my case 5000/10000 in network/out of network year). If you use up the entire 5000, insurance then pays the rest. If you do not use it up (which is pretty normal) that pretax money sits in a savings account collecting interest till you need to use it. So you start racking up a pretty good size savings account, for the years you may be unemployed or if you get an illness that knocks you out for a year, or you get old. So instead of pissing it away to the insurance company you get to use it. Not only does this help slove the whole I dont have any money later in life problem, it also encourages prices dropping since you now care how much you pay for your health care and prevents wasting resources. HSA's ARE THE SOLUTION to the problem. Even if you have goverment subsidizing that shit it would still be cheaper.


HSA's don't work that way for the self employed. as you've stated, you are getting the free ride at work. your health care benefits should be taxable, and then you and I will be on a level playing field.

when I threw in the towel they wanted over $1K/month for a plan. for a completely healthy guy with no preexisting conditions.

No one gets a free ride. Anything that employers pay on your behalf, you forego in lower wages.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 10:43:38 AM EST
I am actually in favor of copy/paste the Canadian system. It works and costs less.

We aren't smart enough to let that happen.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 10:48:30 AM EST
I actually stomached that whole video and lived to write a comment.

A Romanian, living in Romania, friend once said to my friend in my presence "You Americans want a pill for everything". Gee, maybe that's why other countries save money. An Iraqi friend that moved to America said "We don't have cancer in Iraq, not like in America".

But no, health care is obviously the problem and we 'need' more bureaucracy to fix the problem. Got it.
View Quote


Link Posted: 10/29/2013 10:49:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 10:51:15 AM EST by Thedude27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History

HSA's don't work that way for the self employed. as you've stated, you are getting the free ride at work. your health care benefits should be taxable, and then you and I will be on a level playing field.

when I threw in the towel they wanted over $1K/month for a plan. for a completely healthy guy with no preexisting conditions.
View Quote


Yes I get that I get a "free ride" (aka reduced paycheck) at work, but its still vastly cheaper than conventional plans, it still encourages responsible spending instead of the buffet mentality and would reduce health care costs and make it easier for ppl to manage health care during hard times. Thats as close to encouraging responsible behavior and reintroducing the free market back into this sham as I can see.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 10:54:52 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 98_1LE:
I am actually in favor of copy/paste the Canadian system. It works and costs less.

We aren't smart enough to let that happen.
View Quote


No thanks.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 10:55:51 AM EST
Research it. Equal or better care for a lot less money. What isn't to like about it?
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 10:57:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 11:00:10 AM EST by Bladeswitcher]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 98_1LE:
I am actually in favor of copy/paste the Canadian system. It works and costs less.

We aren't smart enough to let that happen.
View Quote



+1

I wonder how much we spend each year pinning the tail on the donkey? I swear insurance companies must have whole departments that do nothing but deny claims and try to pass the bill onto the next insurance company. It's not like anyone is getting refused medical care in America. Everybody gets treated, albeit at the most expensive facilities (i.e. emergency rooms). Those bills get paid, too . . . by the rest of us.

It's my opinion that we're ALREADY paying enough to provide universal coverage. And, in fact, we probably do have universal coverage. All we're arguing about is who gets stuck with the bill. I say let's do the efficient thing and just go to a single payer system and be done with it.

With one caveat: We have to figure out a way to keep the incentive there for research, development and innovation. We have to preserve profit in the system for those who lead the way. We can figure that out, though.

ETA: I envision a single-payer system that would still allow you to go to a private doctor outside the single-payer system if you so choose. Costs for those sorts of services might even go down if you free them up from having to care for the rest of us.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 10:59:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 11:03:29 AM EST by tetoncounty]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AR-180:

No one gets a free ride. Anything that employers pay on your behalf, you forego in lower wages.
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Originally Posted By AR-180:
Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
Originally Posted By Thedude27:
Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
all they kept harping on were "medical savings accounts". you were supposed to save money in an account somewhere and use it to pay medical bills when you needed it. what bull***! nobody in my tax bracket is able to save much money. anything I COULD save wouldn't pay for the ambulance ride to the hospital.



Your ignorance is sickening. Let me explain how a HSA/High deductable plan works. You pay an extremely small fee(well until shitbamacare hit you did) for a high deductible plan (at my work, work pays the entire amount, and its the only plan they kept so its obviously the cheapest for them) than your normal premiums instead of going to the insurance company go into a savings account. You use that money to pay for incidental care up to the deductable amount (in my case 5000/10000 in network/out of network year). If you use up the entire 5000, insurance then pays the rest. If you do not use it up (which is pretty normal) that pretax money sits in a savings account collecting interest till you need to use it. So you start racking up a pretty good size savings account, for the years you may be unemployed or if you get an illness that knocks you out for a year, or you get old. So instead of pissing it away to the insurance company you get to use it. Not only does this help slove the whole I dont have any money later in life problem, it also encourages prices dropping since you now care how much you pay for your health care and prevents wasting resources. HSA's ARE THE SOLUTION to the problem. Even if you have goverment subsidizing that shit it would still be cheaper.


HSA's don't work that way for the self employed. as you've stated, you are getting the free ride at work. your health care benefits should be taxable, and then you and I will be on a level playing field.

when I threw in the towel they wanted over $1K/month for a plan. for a completely healthy guy with no preexisting conditions.

No one gets a free ride. Anything that employers pay on your behalf, you forego in lower wages.


it's a free ride to the extent that you are getting something that I have to pay out of pocket for, and I'm paying with after tax dollars, while you are not taxed on those benefits. the discrepancy is even greater because you are in an artificially lower tax bracket because health benefits are not included in your compensation at tax time.

I realize that no one gives two ***** about the self employed. just understand that, from where I'm looking, the republicans are as much my enemy as the democrats. both of them want to destroy me.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 10:59:50 AM EST
They're going to get it one way or another. All we can do is hang on and try to soften the blow. If there's any way to steer it so it still gives tax payers a choice we should be pushing with all our might in that direction. There's no turning back now.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 11:05:32 AM EST
I would like it if the women in the video would just take their clothes off.


Link Posted: 10/29/2013 11:18:30 AM EST
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Originally Posted By texasbagman:


Unreal! You actually blame Republicans for Obamacare. No wonder you are in a lower tax bracket...
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Originally Posted By texasbagman:
Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
it's going to happen. the republicans are just as culpable as the democrats. the health care system has been a shambles for a long time, and the republicans wouldn't do anything to fix the problems. they were bought off by big insurance and didn't give a damn about people like me, who are self employed and were priced out of the system.

all they kept harping on were "medical savings accounts". you were supposed to save money in an account somewhere and use it to pay medical bills when you needed it. what bull***! nobody in my tax bracket is able to save much money. anything I COULD save wouldn't pay for the ambulance ride to the hospital.

don't talk to me about "free markets" in health care. there is no free market. this country decided that no one is going to be turned away. so people like me, who don't work for a large employer, and don't work for the government, are left to pay.

so people were desperate enough to consider a solution that would keep them from losing everything when they had an accident, and we ended up with obamacare. thanks, republicans. not one of you voted for it, but you could have headed this off. too bad the lobbyists for insurance companies mean more to you than the rest of us.


Unreal! You actually blame Republicans for Obamacare. No wonder you are in a lower tax bracket...


HIS POST IS SPOT ON.

medical care as a percentage of GDP has been growing larger for a long time. the medical industrial complex has continued to raise prices because the insurance industry hides the cost from the consumer until its too late. with no market forces coming into play it is simply a time bomb. the explosion in medical complexes, expensive techniques and uber expensive drugs are examples of this.

the demokrats took advantage of the super majority that resulted from bush hate and the backlash from the war in iraq and pushed through a fucked up solution. to which the republikans had no counter. whether they did so because they support big biz or simply were apathetic is beside the point. they offered (and still dont offer) no solution that im aware of other than repeal (which i support). so they are as much to blame as the demokrats. saying so pisses folks off but its true.

i vote republikan. i do so because this is a two party system and the only counter (and a poor one it is) to the demokrats are the republikans. but folks need to realize that the republikans are as much to blame as the demokrats for the situation in this country. they support opposite spectrums of society (demorkats the poor and FSA and the republikans big biz). and both sides work for their base at the expense of the ever decreasing and economically hammered middle klass, that is being hammered downstream to join the FSA.

thats the facts jack.


Link Posted: 10/29/2013 11:36:12 AM EST
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it's a free ride to the extent that you are getting something that I have to pay out of pocket for, and I'm paying with after tax dollars, while you are not taxed on those benefits. the discrepancy is even greater because you are in an artificially lower tax bracket because health benefits are not included in your compensation at tax time.

I realize that no one gives two ***** about the self employed. just understand that, from where I'm looking, the republicans are as much my enemy as the democrats. both of them want to destroy me.
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And you get to write off all sorts of "Business expenses" that we will not, to reduce your taxable income tremendously (as a former business owner of ~10 years I'm well aware of this), although I'm not sure what this has to do with anything related to the discussion.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 11:39:01 AM EST
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Originally Posted By robplumm:
We'll have single payer...then comes VAT...b/c...well...we have to pay for single payer....it's a downhill slide once that final nail gets hammered in.
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I really don't see a way out of it. Simple fact is, they've got the numbers, or at least damn close to it. Just a matter of time.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 11:43:00 AM EST
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Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
republicans had eight years with bush and they could see this coming. all they did was create another entitlement: the drug plan.

the handwriting was on the wall ten years ago. premiums were soaring. big labor, and gov (medicare, Medicaid) squeezed the insurance corps to keep their premiums as low as possible. lobbyists paid off congress to avoid ANY regulation that would help the middle class. so millions like me were ****ed.

the republicans could have gotten behind something as simple as letting people buy plans across state lines. that would have cut my insurance in half. they weren't interested, because they figured I had no choice but to vote for them anyway. guess who went hunting on election day in 2008 and 2012? guess where I'll be in 2016? republican party is dead, time to pull the plug.

yeah, I blame republicans. and democrats. they're ALL corrupt.

no, I'm not in a low tax bracket. it's because I'm successful, and SELF EMPLOYED that I'm getting screwed. I'm simply not successful enough to make the required "donations' to congress for special treatment.
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You sure about that? The republicans did not control both houses for 8 years.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 11:45:40 AM EST
The problem with a single payer system is every single country where it is kind of in a way working have much smaller populations than the US. Canada and the EU countries are still going broke, and have fewer people to care for. Changing to a single payer system might be slightly cheaper in the short term, but the problem of rising costs seen in places like the UK would be accelerated here with 310+ million people.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 12:08:46 PM EST
Single-payer health care always reminds me of rent control.

I never met a supporter of rent control that didn't live in a rent controlled apartment.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 12:18:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 12:49:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 12:51:11 PM EST by Bladeswitcher]
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Originally Posted By JeuBacca:
The problem with a single payer system is every single country where it is kind of in a way working have much smaller populations than the US. Canada and the EU countries are still going broke, and have fewer people to care for. Changing to a single payer system might be slightly cheaper in the short term, but the problem of rising costs seen in places like the UK would be accelerated here with 310+ million people.
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Your theory might hold water if people were actually being denied care because they don't have insurance. Instead, they still get treated but the doctors and hospitals hide the cost of uncovered care in what they charge the people with insurance. Again, I believe we're already paying for everyone to have medical care.

But yeah, there isn't any country with deep enough pockets to truly cover the cost of health care. The problem isn't the insurance or lack of it. The problem is the cost of medical care. It's obscene. Which is exactly what happens when you have a "cost is no object" attitude. Insurance is a big part of the reason for that, btw.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 1:01:50 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:



Your theory might hold water if people were actually being denied care because they don't have insurance. Instead, they still get treated but the doctors and hospitals hide the cost of uncovered care in what they charge the people with insurance. Again, I believe we're already paying for everyone to have medical care.

But yeah, there isn't any country with deep enough pockets to truly cover the cost of health care. The problem isn't the insurance or lack of it. The problem is the cost of medical care. It's obscene. Which is exactly what happens when you have a "cost is no object" attitude. Insurance is a big part of the reason for that, btw.
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Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:
Originally Posted By JeuBacca:
The problem with a single payer system is every single country where it is kind of in a way working have much smaller populations than the US. Canada and the EU countries are still going broke, and have fewer people to care for. Changing to a single payer system might be slightly cheaper in the short term, but the problem of rising costs seen in places like the UK would be accelerated here with 310+ million people.



Your theory might hold water if people were actually being denied care because they don't have insurance. Instead, they still get treated but the doctors and hospitals hide the cost of uncovered care in what they charge the people with insurance. Again, I believe we're already paying for everyone to have medical care.

But yeah, there isn't any country with deep enough pockets to truly cover the cost of health care. The problem isn't the insurance or lack of it. The problem is the cost of medical care. It's obscene. Which is exactly what happens when you have a "cost is no object" attitude. Insurance is a big part of the reason for that, btw.

Damn, wasted post 223...

In all reality with the types of .gov provided care we have a single payer system would in all likelihood cause an increase in costs that'd make the last 30 years look tame. Healthcare costs are set by the government through Medicare/Medicaid, and insurance companies allow hospitals to charge so much because just as with taxes they pass that cost onto the rest of the pool (the reason we've had premiums increase). It's the EXACT same situation in higher education. The universities keep increasing the cost of tuition because .gov with blindly pay it. With .gov setting healthcare prices the past 50 years we've had de facto single payer, with just enough free market thrown in there (privately owned insurance companies) to keep it from going pants-on-head bat -shit insane.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 1:10:51 PM EST
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Originally Posted By JeuBacca:


In all reality with the types of .gov provided care we have a single payer system would in all likelihood cause an increase in costs that'd make the last 30 years look tame. Healthcare costs are set by the government through Medicare/Medicaid, and insurance companies allow hospitals to charge so much because just as with taxes they pass that cost onto the rest of the pool (the reason we've had premiums increase). It's the EXACT same situation in higher education. The universities keep increasing the cost of tuition because .gov with blindly pay it. With .gov setting healthcare prices the past 50 years we've had de facto single payer, with just enough free market thrown in there (privately owned insurance companies) to keep it from going pants-on-head bat -shit insane.
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Well, whatever we're doing ain't working. Time to change it.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 1:22:24 PM EST
We had our annual employee meeting with the Health Care Benefits people....
most of the employees are union, the rest salaried.

All HC ins is increasing, premiums, co-pays, deduct, OOP expense...

Much grumbling was heard, and I said, "What difference does it make? We all be in single payer/Canadian system within 3-5 years....You voted for this shit now eat it."

I wasn't much like to begin with...this may have just re-affirmed what these dicks already thought of me.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 1:29:13 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:



Well, whatever we're doing ain't working. Time to change it.
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Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:
Originally Posted By JeuBacca:


In all reality with the types of .gov provided care we have a single payer system would in all likelihood cause an increase in costs that'd make the last 30 years look tame. Healthcare costs are set by the government through Medicare/Medicaid, and insurance companies allow hospitals to charge so much because just as with taxes they pass that cost onto the rest of the pool (the reason we've had premiums increase). It's the EXACT same situation in higher education. The universities keep increasing the cost of tuition because .gov with blindly pay it. With .gov setting healthcare prices the past 50 years we've had de facto single payer, with just enough free market thrown in there (privately owned insurance companies) to keep it from going pants-on-head bat -shit insane.



Well, whatever we're doing ain't working. Time to change it.



There's the flaw in your thinking.

I don't need or want the country to come up with a solution for how to get me healthcare. If I want it, I'll fucking buy it.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 2:14:29 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
There's the flaw in your thinking.

I don't need or want the country to come up with a solution for how to get me healthcare. If I want it, I'll fucking buy it.
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As a country we're doing it wrong. And it's something that as a country we need to do (tell .gov to get the fuck out of the way), but never will.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 2:37:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 2:40:48 PM EST by Bladeswitcher]
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Originally Posted By 1Andy2:



There's the flaw in your thinking.

I don't need or want the country to come up with a solution for how to get me healthcare. If I want it, I'll fucking buy it.
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Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:
Originally Posted By JeuBacca:


In all reality with the types of .gov provided care we have a single payer system would in all likelihood cause an increase in costs that'd make the last 30 years look tame. Healthcare costs are set by the government through Medicare/Medicaid, and insurance companies allow hospitals to charge so much because just as with taxes they pass that cost onto the rest of the pool (the reason we've had premiums increase). It's the EXACT same situation in higher education. The universities keep increasing the cost of tuition because .gov with blindly pay it. With .gov setting healthcare prices the past 50 years we've had de facto single payer, with just enough free market thrown in there (privately owned insurance companies) to keep it from going pants-on-head bat -shit insane.



Well, whatever we're doing ain't working. Time to change it.



There's the flaw in your thinking.

I don't need or want the country to come up with a solution for how to get me healthcare. If I want it, I'll fucking buy it.


Do you pay for your own coverage now? DOes your employer provide it?
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 2:37:49 PM EST
8,000 dollars a month pay for a certain pilot in the Canadian AF. 3500 gets taken by the goverment for taxes and there to isn't any "refund" at the end of the year. I have researched it. Work right beside him. The shit isn't free. He could buy the platinum diamond plan for the taxes he pays a month and be seen by a competent doctor probably on the same day. You don't want any part of this system.
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