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Posted: 4/19/2007 1:51:32 PM EST
I just read a post in the GD that quotes a victim account of the shooting.  He describes hearing gunshots. The professor checks the hallway and tells them to call 911.  The shooter then enters the room and walks up and down the aisles shooting students and nobody tried to run or attack him.  They just sat there and waited to die.

How have we gotten to the point in this country that people are so used to taking their safety for granted that they would allow this to happen?  I just can't wrap my mind around it.  We all know what happens during an active shooter and this guy spells out so many reasons that it is crystal clear what was going on.

1)  The guy started shooting in another room.
2)  He was shooting random people without so much as saying a word.
3)  He shot the girl next to the guy in the back.
4)  He shoots the guy, who doesn't know him.
5)  He leaves the room to shoot more people, and then comes back and shoots some more!  

Even when he came back for round 2 nobody tried to stop him.  Even after having time, granted a short time, to collect your thoughts and let what is happening sink in everybody sat and waited for their death.  

How does this happen?!?!?!
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 1:52:52 PM EST
The sheepification of America
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 2:51:54 PM EST
Very good questions.

The American public is slowly being emasculated by political correctness and the fear of civil liability.  As a result, the American public is slowly sliding deeper and deeper into becoming a weak civilization.  

As the country has changed the meaning of family, you are seeing weaker and weaker men and women who don't know anything other than weak men.  

We need two parent families with a mother and a father.  Fathers teach their sons aggression and assertiveness and mothers teach compassion.  You can't have one without being countered by the other.

As we have moved away from those concepts, you are seeing more and more weak men who are unwilling to take charge and attempt to "save the day".  Being a hero was once an honorable thing.  Now it's something to be avoided.

I think incidents like this where no one wants to do anything will become more and more commonplace over coming years.  Better get ready to deal with more and more weak people expecting you to resolve all their problems.

Sad.

Good post.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 3:51:51 PM EST
You are absolutely correct.  People think that they dont have to help themselves others will and wait for someone else to help them.  I guarantee if I had the choice of hiding under my desk and maybe living or making a last ditch effort to end this madness.  I will be living or dying on my feet.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:07:02 PM EST
I don't know if this info is correct, the cell phone video sounded like people were yelling at him. When people stood up he probably shot them, people would quickly figure to stay down is a good option. I don't want to speculate, all I can say is theydidn't go to school that day thinking they would be shot at. The suddeness of the situation probably would leave the average person rocking on thier heels,
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:24:36 PM EST
Just had this discussion with a co-worker.  I agree with Blackwater, we should wait until all the facts are in.  I also think we should not be so quick to call everyone a pussy and have some respect for those killed and their family/friends.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:40:32 PM EST
height=8
Quoted:
I don't know if this info is correct, the cell phone video sounded like people were yelling at him. When people stood up he probably shot them, people would quickly figure to stay down is a good option. I don't want to speculate, all I can say is theydidn't go to school that day thinking they would be shot at. The suddeness of the situation probably would leave the average person rocking on thier heels,


If there is a cell phone video I have not seen it.  That said, it is a perfect example of what I am talking about.  Why on earth would someone be shooting video with their cell phone while a gunman is indiscriminately murdering people?!?!

The way I see it, there are 3 natural responses to a threatening situation:  fight, flight, or submit.  Clearly submitting wasn't working well.  The gunman was walking around shooting people in the back.  Flight or fight would be better.  Sure, he may shoot you when you run or attack but at least you are doing something to improve your odds.  If there are others around you doing the same then everyones odds improve.  If they had attacked him in force he wouldn't have killed more that a few people.  He wasn't even well armed.

As far as the students not thinking they would be shot at...  perhaps that is the root of the problem.  People are not taught to watch out for themselves.  As an Officer we are trained to expect people to attack us at all times.  We take that situational awareness with us off duty.  Perhaps that is the reason this is so hard for me to understand.  I have spent enough time on the streets to know that most people are oblivious to what is going on around them and most are absolutely useless in a true emergency.  Instead of trying to place blame on the University or the Police or the Judge that didn't commit this guy, maybe we should start thinking about how to prepare people to defend themselves.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:02:37 PM EST
How did a 3 man team of third world men armed with 1" blade knifes take over several airplanes on 9-11-01????????????????

People are like tea bags, you never know how strong they are 'till you put them in hot water.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:02:46 PM EST
I wasnt trying to disrespect anyone or there families, but instead of blaming people other than the shooter maybe we as a society need to look into ourselves and ask what has changed over the last 20 years and why more people are committing these types of acts.  A few things that I think of is:

1. Violent video games

2. Family life

3. The media posting pictures of this guy and talking about him non-stop for several days.

I heard a 16 year old kid say He did just like in Grand Theft Auto, when he was talking about this shooter.  Now I play violent games on my PS2 but I am an adult.  I am not saying that video games are the reason solely this is happening, I know better than that.  I believe that it is a combination between them and the things above, as well as other society factors.  Exspecially the parents where now it takes two incomes to stay afloat alot of the time, so no real time is spent with there children.

Ok,Ok, I'll get off the soap box now.



Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:07:42 PM EST
Yeah, maybe it's time to make self defence /hand to hand combat courses mandatory for all 14YOs and above. Yeah, the hippies would hate it, but call it rape prevention, maybe it'd fly, but then again, they say if a guy tries to rape you "don't fight him, because then he'll just hurt you"
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 2:25:58 PM EST
I would say be careful calling the victims sheepified americans.  There was on teacher
we know stood up and took 15 rounds while his students tried to escape.  Also I would
bet that alot of people here have not been shot at.  Its easy to sit back and say I would
do this or I would do that but in reality when the bullets start flying and by that I mean
AT YOU a few different things happen.  You cower and sometimes you die.  You stand up
and most likely you die.  I have seen extremely well trained soldiers in combat become
a pile of goo when the bullets start flying.  And they were trained.  These were college
students.  GIVE THEM A BRAKE.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 4:10:27 PM EST
height=8
Quoted:
I would say be careful calling the victims sheepified americans.  There was on teacher
we know stood up and took 15 rounds while his students tried to escape.  Also I would
bet that alot of people here have not been shot at.  Its easy to sit back and say I would
do this or I would do that but in reality when the bullets start flying and by that I mean
AT YOU a few different things happen.  You cower and sometimes you die.  You stand up
and most likely you die.  I have seen extremely well trained soldiers in combat become
a pile of goo when the bullets start flying.  And they were trained.  These were college
students.  GIVE THEM A BRAKE.


You have a point.  Nobody knows how they will react to a life threatening stimulus until it is presented.  I have been there but can honestly say that until it happened, I wasn't fully prepared for it.  

I was not surprized that a large number of students (probably mostly young adults who have not encountered any real emergency) would not know how to react or would freeze.  That isn't what I don't understand.  What I don't understand is how so many reacted that way.  I think it is a failing of our societal norms.  We coddle children into their 20's and beyond.  We do not teach them to watch out for themselves and the idea that calling 911 will somehow solve everything is getting disturbingly commonplace.  People need to take some responsibility for their own safety.  You can bet that my children will be well trained in self defence, with and without weapons.  Is it a guarentee that they won't freeze?  Of course not.  But in a room of 20 people who have some instilled level of self preservation at least half will take some action.

One side note:  If the classrooms had been full of criminals that guy would have been torn limb from limb.  He might have gotten one or two, but no more.  Despite criminals being bad people, they have learned to watch out for themselves.  Granted, they would have taken his guns and run when the Police started showing up but that is another matter.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:04:14 PM EST
I think I heard the same interview/report.  I couldn't help thinking of "sheepification", also. And I DEFINITELY mean NO disrespect.  I cannot, however, imagine how any entire class of students could all leave through a window while an elderly professor held his weight against a door to allow them to get out.  I discussed this on the way to his school with my son this AM and (without me expressing my thoughts) he stated ... " You never really know how you'd react ... but, if I knew someone was going to come in and try to shoot MY whole class ... I'd do the best I could to f*#k 'em up!".   I gotta tell ya ... THAT was EXACTLY what I'd hoped he'd say.  He's no hero, and he's too young to be particularly conservative, but he sure as hell is no sheep.   Still ...My heart goes out to the families.  All of them.

Stay safe
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:15:24 PM EST

Quoted:
People are like tea bags, you never know how strong they are 'till you put them in hot water.




IMHO, look at the advice many "police experts" giv eht epublic:

When confronted in a rape/robbery/assault, don;t resist. Give your attacker what they want. You can't fight back effectively, and nothing is worth your life.

Except, maybe, your life. They forget that part.

And the professor's name was Liviu Librescu, a 76 year old holocaust survivor. And while he was from Romania by way of Israel, he was a true American hero for placing the safety of others before his own.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:20:48 PM EST
I agree you dont know how you will react until it happens to you.  But I know how it feels when rounds go down range I have been there.  And some soldiers do turn to a pile of goo.  But the other thing that I have seen in times such as this is mob rule only needs a small few to encite this type of behavior.  I seen those same pile of goo's look at there fellow soldiers and rise back up and get back into the fight.  I find it quite weird how an elderly man was able to hold a door shut on a fit twenty something male and no one came to help that man.  I am not trying to arm chair quarter back this situation just saying that we might want to look at the way we raise are children and what in future we can do to stop this from happening again.  As far as these people being just college students well not that day.  I remember a small number of people aboard a plane that were just commuters but that fought back all the way to ground.  

My heart goes out to victims of this tradegy and god be with you all.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 6:29:31 PM EST
I don't see what happened at VT as modern society's "sheepification".  This isn't anything new to civilization.  There were 6 million people that were herded like cattle into railcars, unloaded and gassed.  It took years to complete the process.  People in groups tend to act in a 'like' manner and I don't begin to understand it.
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