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Posted: 10/1/2005 10:23:44 PM EDT
Wow, the new radio frequency chips meant to replace the bar code are being discussed on Coast To Coast.

Many, many ways these can be misused. Besides the CorpRats tracking every aspect of EVERYTHING you purchase, criminals with readers can "shop" around for high-value items by "pinging" these chips...

Scary...
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 10:28:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 10:35:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 10:35:49 PM EDT by MMcCall]
Or take a 9v battery and two wires and fry the shit out of them. They're pretty fragile.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 10:42:27 PM EDT
what next, are people going to start posting interesting articles from The Enquirer?
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 10:44:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SNorman:
what next, are people going to start posting interesting articles from The Enquirer?





Pass the tin foil, please!
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 10:45:50 PM EDT
I received an email from a friend a couple months back. Seems the new twenty dollar bills have RFID in them. He went through a magnetometer with a wad of them in his pocket and it beeped. He went home and put them in the microwave. Most of the faces of the prez burned up.. The email came with pics. Maybe I'll try to post it later..

True or not, I have no idea..Interesting though..

Link Posted: 10/1/2005 10:45:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
Uh, remove the chips? Easy peasy.



Not always possible. There was a proposal to put RFID chips in US passports. That would have been a security disaster. Terrorists could get an RFID scanner for cheap, then scan people walking by, looking for someone carrying a US passport.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 10:49:41 PM EDT
Tinfoil? Not hardly. These things ARE coming...

They can be quite small. And they will be in EVERYTHING... from your jug of milk to the porn mag you just bought.

It used to be, you got home, and once you closed the door, you were away from any monitoring.

Not anymore.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 10:55:34 PM EDT
Can you say 1984.


Link Posted: 10/1/2005 11:11:04 PM EDT
I was listening to this too. Everything from the threads that make up your new shirt to the card you use at your local grocery....

Privacy is dead, Big Brother is at large..

Link Posted: 10/1/2005 11:11:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 11:11:53 PM EDT by Gloftoe]
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 11:37:21 PM EDT
Gloftoe,

I'm too busy to spend my time searching for RFID chips in all the shit I consume. If corporations want to monitor what we consume, how can we stop them? It seems to me, we are living in the Matrix. And the money we spend is what keeps the Matrix alive. Should we just stop consuming?
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 11:40:35 PM EDT
Gloftoe,

Looking for and removing RFID's would cut into my straight, adult porn downloading time.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 11:55:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2005 11:56:22 PM EDT by TheOtherDave]
Like it or not, this shit is for real.. My Dad works on RFID devices and embedded microcontrollers for TRW. By themselves they aren't all that invasive, it's when they are tied into databases and your information is collected, sold, distributed etc.

Wait until the day comes when you you buy a new TV, and the phone rings that night: "Hello Arfcommer, while driving past XZY stereo store today, we noticed that you bought a TV from ABC appliance down the street. According to our data capture, you didn't purchase a model with surround sound speakers as standard: Would you be interested in purchasing a system from us today?

Hell, we are using these things for micro radio control airplanes now, Plantraco sells a system that works as far as you can see it..

Dave
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 12:16:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
Like it or not, this shit is for real.. My Dad works on RFID devices and embedded microcontrollers for TRW. By themselves they aren't all that invasive, it's when they are tied into databases and your information is collected, sold, distributed etc.

Wait until the day comes when you you buy a new TV, and the phone rings that night: "Hello Arfcommer, while driving past XZY stereo store today, we noticed that you bought a TV from ABC appliance down the street. According to our data capture, you didn't purchase a model with surround sound speakers as standard: Would you be interested in purchasing a system from us today?

Hell, we are using these things for micro radio control airplanes now, Plantraco sells a system that works as far as you can see it..

Dave



Yes, there are several categories of them these days, and you DO NOT have to be in close proximity to some of them to read them. They used to be passive, and your detector would transmit a weak radio signal which was "reflected" in a sense back by the chip, with the data. Now, the reader transmits a signal that triggers a transmitter in the chip, which is powered by a small battery, and it transmits the data using a fairly strong signal, readable over a fairly long distance.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 12:26:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:
Like it or not, this shit is for real.. My Dad works on RFID devices and embedded microcontrollers for TRW. By themselves they aren't all that invasive, it's when they are tied into databases and your information is collected, sold, distributed etc.

Wait until the day comes when you you buy a new TV, and the phone rings that night: "Hello Arfcommer, while driving past XZY stereo store today, we noticed that you bought a TV from ABC appliance down the street. According to our data capture, you didn't purchase a model with surround sound speakers as standard: Would you be interested in purchasing a system from us today?

Hell, we are using these things for micro radio control airplanes now, Plantraco sells a system that works as far as you can see it..

Dave



Yes, there are several categories of them these days, and you DO NOT have to be in close proximity to some of them to read them. They used to be passive, and your detector would transmit a weak radio signal which was "reflected" in a sense back by the chip, with the data. Now, the reader transmits a signal that triggers a transmitter in the chip, which is powered by a small battery, and it transmits the data using a fairly strong signal, readable over a fairly long distance.



And alot of you have been making fun of us conspiracy theorists and our aluminum foil hats...

Now you'll have to start wallpapering your house with the stuff!
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 12:41:30 AM EDT
I guess a good strategy would be:

Buy a lot of cheap random stuff. Like Toad in American Grafitti...all that crap to get a bottle of Old Harper's...

Buying random junk would throw off any pattern recognition software, keeping your desired purchases masked...
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 1:16:49 AM EDT
this shit is for real. I work for a company that makes them and I test them.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 3:36:39 AM EDT
So are they going to be put in guns?
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 3:55:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M38:
So are they going to be put in guns?




Yes.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 4:01:30 AM EDT
I listened to the program too, good show, scary stuff.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 4:14:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Az_Redneck:
I received an email from a friend a couple months back. Seems the new twenty dollar bills have RFID in them. He went through a magnetometer with a wad of them in his pocket and it beeped. He went home and put them in the microwave. Most of the faces of the prez burned up.. The email came with pics. Maybe I'll try to post it later..

True or not, I have no idea..Interesting though..




Actually, most currency has had the magnetic strip for a long time now.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 4:26:26 AM EDT
A lot of high dollar "stuff" already has RFID chips inside of them, meaning that you can't disable the chip with the regular scanner gun at the store and that in order to get at the chip you have to almost completly disassemble the item.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 4:28:01 AM EDT
On the other hand I would not mind being able to walk into Homey D or Lowsers and be able to select the item I want and have a computer tell me where in the store that item is located by way of the RFID chip.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 5:02:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Tinfoil? Not hardly. These things ARE coming...

They can be quite small. And they will be in EVERYTHING... from your jug of milk to the porn mag you just bought.

It used to be, you got home, and once you closed the door, you were away from any monitoring.

Not anymore.



Yup...they're coming alright.

The smallest ones (which won't be on the market for a few years) are about the size of pepper. You could then embed it into the plastic casing of whatever you wanted. No more inch-long stickers on packages at Best Buy. These littlest versions don't have much range or memory capacity....right now anyway.

An RFID, in it's basic form, is a radio transmitter with a piece of memory. When the RFID detects a compatible radio signal from another computer, the RFID will transmit the information it has in memory. The RFID's we're talking about don't use batteries, they use the incoming radio-signal itself to power its reply message.

Range:
My work ID has an RFID in it. It has to be within about 5 inches of the door sensor to open it up. A recent demonstration this summer showed that these types of RFID's could be read at greater ranges...30-40 feet. Different types (usually larger versions) have better range.

Information:
Current RFID's simply have a short number on them. Maybe something like "33434634" which could be an employee number or the UPC code of a product. Perhaps a second number would indicate that the product is purchased already and can pass out the front door without setting off the alarm. Some of the cutting-edge RFID's hold more information...like 16k worth of information. You could fit a lot in 16384 characters (no, these aren't the pepper-sized RFID's...more like the size of a button).

Type of info:
We'll likely see encrypted RFID info. Maybe something like browser security, particularly since these things will likely first be used like cookies in a browser. For example, an RFID on something I bought might have the number "234878234" on it. That's meaningless to anybody that scans my RFID except for the place where I purchased it. The original store could scan it...look up the number in their database, then they could match that number to my identity, etc.

Convenience stuff:
The latest Corvette has an RFID in the key. You can just leave the key in your pocket, the car knows when you're in it and it will start up. We'll probably see a zillion convenience things...maybe your computer will know when you're sitting at your desk and will automatically pull up your email. Your Tivo will know when you enter the room...all that type of stuff.

The Hackers:
No need to pick a wallet out of a pocket, maybe a thief with a PDA can pick your number from 20 feet away as you walk by. That's the basic idea of it, if the data is properly encrypted or protected, then this won't be such a huge deal. But this is the type of question that RFID developers are considering.

Irresponsible stuff:
Putting unencrypted personal data on one isn't the best idea. A clothing manufacturer had plans a couple years ago to put the purchaser's name, address, credit card number, etc. on the RFID. That idea got scrapped. Some hotels actually put that stuff on those electronic door keys (it was just in the news a week or so ago). True, a door key isn't an RFID as it lacks the radio component, but it shares the portable part and the memory part (I suspect hotels will switch to an RFID type key at some point). It also shows that the memory storage part of a device was used irresponsibly. In the same story some hotels (such as Disney hotels) had encrypted the data or put "user numbers" on the cards so if some "hacker" scanned the info, it wouldn't be any use to them.

Advertising stuff:
I think the movie Minority Report shows it (if I got the right movie), where a character is walking/running through an area and digital billboard advertisements keep appearing near him. With RFID's in place, billboards could recognize who we were, what we've purchased in the past, and then display an advertisement targeted just toward us. Arfcommers might see billboards for ammo and stuff all the time...hehe. This is the same type of data that is tracked with current Supermarket keyfob "savings cards" and visiting Amazon.com. When I visit Amazon.com, I'll get ads for Tom Clancy books or something while BeeKeeper might get ads for books like How To Keep Your Bees Stress Free, etc. :)

Big Brother stuff:
It isn't so much the RFIDs by themselves, it's the ability to tie the RFID to existing/multiple databases.
* As you walk into a ballgame, a scanner at the ticket booth reads everybody's RFID's in their credit cards, driver's licenses, etc. and identifies everybody in real time
* RFID scanners on the freeway/roads identify you in real time, The Man could track a lot of the population in real time.
* An LEO comes to your door and serves papers....not for you, but for your 9-year old kid's shoes. Apparantly your son's friend's family is in a custody dispute and the RFID in your kid's shoes have evidence for the case to see if your kid visited a certain store on the day in question.

RFID's are just a tool. How they are used....now that's the question.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 5:17:10 AM EDT
Stop using credit cards and checks to make purchases.

All this info is already being rolled into databases to profile you, the consumer. Just look at your most recent grocery store or wallmart receipt, it lists every item by name and inventory number, and your name and your credit card number (with some numbers Xed out, but in the database, just the same).

The rfid chips will further enhance this profiling capability.

Remember, cash is king!
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 5:17:17 AM EDT
It would be nice to make it required all RFID chips be disabled once you buy a product in the store. None of these "embedded" types should be allowed on consumer goods, but only the paste-on sticker kind. They should also mandate that they be made a bright color so the consumer could find it, remove and throw it away once he gets home.

My American Express Blue Cash card has a chip in it
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 7:50:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 7:52:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 556_Chowder:
this shit is for real. I work for a company that makes them and I test them.




gee thanks.


666
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 7:55:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KA3B:
A lot of high dollar "stuff" already has RFID chips inside of them, meaning that you can't disable the chip with the regular scanner gun at the store and that in order to get at the chip you have to almost completly disassemble the item.



Does the scanner gun at the store have a chip in it also?

Do I?
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 7:56:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2005 7:59:54 AM EDT by Paul]
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 8:04:22 AM EDT
Good thing I know a cutting edge RF guy. Remember Faraday, its not just a good idea, its the LAW!
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 8:04:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Az_Redneck:
I received an email from a friend a couple months back. Seems the new twenty dollar bills have RFID in them. He went through a magnetometer with a wad of them in his pocket and it beeped. He went home and put them in the microwave. Most of the faces of the prez burned up.. The email came with pics. Maybe I'll try to post it later..

True or not, I have no idea..Interesting though..




Of course. Bill validators--like in vending machines--have been using magnetic heads to read bills. These magnetic heads are very similar to the ones in the old school tape cassette players, and pretty much do the same thing.

Much of the magnetic material is contained in the 'head' one the bill.

Microwaves and metal don't mix, and magnetic material is, of course, metal. That would lead to a torched bill.

I've worked on validators from the 60s-70s that use mag heads to identify the bill, so this isn't news here.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 8:08:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
Stop using credit cards and checks to make purchases.

All this info is already being rolled into databases to profile you, the consumer. Just look at your most recent grocery store or wallmart receipt, it lists every item by name and inventory number, and your name and your credit card number (with some numbers Xed out, but in the database, just the same).

The rfid chips will further enhance this profiling capability.

Remember, cash is king!



Once a month from now on, I'll go to Walmart and buy the following items in the same transaction on my debit card:

Nylon rope
Duct tape
Condoms
Children's cough syrup
Winchester 9mm value pack

I'll keep doing it every month until the cops show up at my door. Until then, it's just some marketing company that knows I prefer children's Dimetapp to children's Robitussin, and I could give a crap less. Bear in mind that I don't think the marketing companies can get street addresses based on purchases, unless you get one of those "preferred shopper" cards, Sam's/Costco membership, etc...
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 8:12:35 AM EDT
if nothing else, it will make it easier to achieve anonymity. It is easier to hide in plain sight amongst the Terabytes of useless data. Even if there was a massive database including the purchases made by 200 million americans every single day, how easy would it be to crunch those numbers and dissemenate that information in a usable format? Hell, the .gov has endless resources at their disposal and a on a very regular basis get the wrong house serving a warrant.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 8:30:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wingnut116ACW:
if nothing else, it will make it easier to achieve anonymity. It is easier to hide in plain sight amongst the Terabytes of useless data. Even if there was a massive database including the purchases made by 200 million americans every single day, how easy would it be to crunch those numbers and dissemenate that information in a usable format? Hell, the .gov has endless resources at their disposal and a on a very regular basis get the wrong house serving a warrant.



Remember the Pentagon's "Predator" database?
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 8:35:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
I guess a good strategy would be:

Buy a lot of cheap random stuff. Like Toad in American Grafitti...all that crap to get a bottle of Old Harper's...

Buying random junk would throw off any pattern recognition software, keeping your desired purchases masked...



Oooh, come on now. Don't be silly. This doesn't pass the 'who cares?' factor. As in...

Who cares that you buy Cheddar v. Mozerrella? Who cares that you buy 1k rounds of ammo from Wal-Mart every week/month/year? Who cares if someone can track how many issues of Hustler you bought from the porn store?

These RFIDs seem like a big scary thing, but really, lets be realistic about this. RFIDs are a way to cut costs for retail outlets like Wal-Mart. I've never worked at a Wal-Mart, but I've been inside a 24h Wal-Mart more than once when they taped off an isle or two for "INVENTORY". I would imagine in a store the size of Wal-Mart they use hunderds of man-hours doing inventory, which translates to thousands of dollars that you have to pay for on your purchases.

Now imagine this: everything that comes into the store is stuck with a sticker (or whatever) that has an RFID with a product code that identifies all of that product while it is in the store. Say product 123 is kleenex, so every box of kleenex is counted as a 123 code. Puffs is 124, and Brand X is 125.

Now they can track how much stock they have of item 123, 124 and 125 in the store. They see that 123 and 125 are purchased more often than brand 124, so they know that item 123 needs purchased/restocked every week, verses item 124 which may only need purchased once a month by compairson.

Not only that, they just saved hundreds of man hours on inventory, since they can call up real time inventory numbers whenever they want.

They can even track, if they like, when items are on the wrong shelf. Looks like someone put a 202 (toilet paper) on the 123 shelf. Wanna go take care of that, Pedro?

The supermarket savings cards are much the same. Are they linked to your name? Sure. But I doubt that the Evil Supermarket Corporate Guy is going to call to see if John Jackass purchased Yoplait or Dannon this week. They take huge numbers, big statistics, and make orders, purchasing and marketing decisions with them.

I'll tell you what didn't happen in the Evil Corporate Boardroom this week:

"Hey...this John Jackass guy...bought $100 of Yoplait and $20 of toilet paper this week. Did you know this is the same John Jackass that has a Team Member account at AR15.com and likes to go shooting every weekend?"

Come on now.

And while the transmitting RFIDs might be a little scarier, I'll tell you something else. Metal grounds radio signals. That's why infrared networks are used more often in office buildings than radio frequency networks--those RF networks tend to be more costly and they get grounded by all the metal in the building structure. That means if you wanna defeat those nastly little transmitters, you can wrap everything in foil, literally.

Can these things be abused? Well, I'm sure someone with nothing better to do will find a way to abuse them, yes. But how about Credit Reporting Agencies? Credit Card Companies? Hell, with your Social Security number someone can get everything, and the CCCos and CRAgencies have 10 fold the amount of info on you than what will fit on a million RFIDs.

So...be paranoid, use cash only, or just live life and know that 99% of people on earth don't give two shits what you do or buy or read on a daily basis. Your choice.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 10:17:34 AM EDT
Total Crap.

People, there is a lot of misinformation going around here...

www.microsoft.com/business/rfidlanding.mspx

The above page does a lot of explaining on how RFID works and how it can affect the consumer as well as the business owner.

It has a lot more pros than cons: inventory can be managed much more efficiently (from raw materials to the sales floor). Example: Inventory rotation and Product recalls will be handled more accurately and much less wasted effort with RFID in place. This makes things safer overall.

Right now all of the proposals floated for RFID are working toward an "opt-in" rather than an "opt-out" business model. Which is to say, customers who wish to use RFID features outside of the retail environment will have to explicitly want to.

Yes, there are potential downsides: those will likely be dealt with by legislation and or Standards long before RFID makes it to the actual label on the box. (It's not there yet, and won't be for another year or two.) Don't mistake a Sensormatic anti-theft strip for an RFID tag, it is not yet ready for primetime.

Believe you me when I say Corporate Attorneys are far more fearful of RFID than anyone here on this board. Why? Because they are the ones who have to look at the tea leaves and figure out how case law might play out if such a system were to ever be used or abused inappropriately.

It is a one thing to discuss this subject after looking at the facts. It is quite another to quote misinformation and unsubstantiated rumors without first checking on the facts and drawing your own conclusions. Please do not confuse sensationalism with vigilance.

Like it or not, RFID is coming, and it will be everywhere in 5 years or less. How you deal with it is up to you, but I think it is safe to say most people will survive the experience none the worse for wear.

Link Posted: 10/2/2005 12:45:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:

That idea got scrapped. Some hotels actually put that stuff on those electronic door keys (it was just in the news a week or so ago).


Myth Busters did this one ... nope just the key is on the key unless someone within the last year did this. I believe about zero of what I read in the news without crossing it. A magnetic stripe strip is not an RFID anyway. You read a magnetic strip with a manotometer not a radio device. Different domain completely.



Different technology
Yes it is a different technology. I'm not pretending that hotel keys are radio devices. They are similar in that they both store information. Whether they store a straight number or unencrypted personal information is the question and that's where I was drawing for a similarity. In addition, Snopes called the Doubletree (since they were mentioned in the 2003 email) and other hotels and asked them if they had personal information on the card. They said no. Further, the technology doesn't need more than a reference number that ties to the room number. Just as in cookie technology for web browsers, this is true. It all depends on how the programmer writes the code. For browser cookies, some web sites (less these days), do put information out in the open on the cookie.

MythBusters
I enjoy the show and watch it quite a bit. But the show was a while ago

Snopes
I enjoy Snopes, and they correctly showed the email that was going around a couple of years ago. Their article on it was last updated in July of this year.

September 20, 2005
Robert Mitchell of ComputerWorld says he carried out his own test with a $30 card reader and stayed in several hotels. Only a few of them had personal info. The ComputerWorld blogs give an error right now, so maybe that's a conspiracy...hehe.

Now the great past time of discussing about what is real and fiction on TV, the news, the internet...hehe.

Clickies:
www.snopes.com/crime/warnings/hotelkey.asp
www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/1016 (giving error at this time)
it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/20/1413244&tid=172&tid=218 /. discussion of Mitchell's claims
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 12:56:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
Stop using credit cards and checks to make purchases.

All this info is already being rolled into databases to profile you, the consumer. Just look at your most recent grocery store or wallmart receipt, it lists every item by name and inventory number, and your name and your credit card number (with some numbers Xed out, but in the database, just the same).

The rfid chips will further enhance this profiling capability.

Remember, cash is king!



True, but most retailers these days use "club" cards. In some cases, the only way to get the cheaper prices is to show or scan the cards. So even if you use cash and their card, you're still fawked. I use the Score card from Dick's and card from my grocer mostly.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 1:01:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Az_Redneck:
I received an email from a friend a couple months back. Seems the new twenty dollar bills have RFID in them. He went through a magnetometer with a wad of them in his pocket and it beeped. He went home and put them in the microwave. Most of the faces of the prez burned up.. The email came with pics. Maybe I'll try to post it later..

True or not, I have no idea..Interesting though..




Interesting... for something that is not true. There are no RFID tags in US bill, none.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 1:11:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
Stop using credit cards and checks to make purchases.

All this info is already being rolled into databases to profile you, the consumer. Just look at your most recent grocery store or wallmart receipt, it lists every item by name and inventory number, and your name and your credit card number (with some numbers Xed out, but in the database, just the same).

The rfid chips will further enhance this profiling capability.

Remember, cash is king!

+1
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 1:15:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wingnut116ACW:
if nothing else, it will make it easier to achieve anonymity. It is easier to hide in plain sight amongst the Terabytes of useless data. Even if there was a massive database including the purchases made by 200 million americans every single day, how easy would it be to crunch those numbers and dissemenate that information in a usable format? Hell, the .gov has endless resources at their disposal and a on a very regular basis get the wrong house serving a warrant.



Quite the contrary, data warehousing & mining is enormous business these days, and you just might fit whatever profile some bureaucrat has dreamed up. Look at how quickly Google pulls up just the specific pages out of billions in a fraction of a second. Look at Zabasearch. Now plug all your purchasing data into that.

There will be a big market in destroying RFID (and any other electronic dog tags that are created) specifically to maintain anonymity.

Everything that is promised to "benefit the consumer" is full of shit. Products are put out there to benefit the bottom line, whatever drags you back to the same store, goads you into that impulse purchase, and info about you that can be sold to someone else is what companies are all about.

Whatever good that could be achieved by RFID/chipping (portable medical databases for one) will be raped and abused and turned into unintended consequences.

Nothing more than an electronic dog collar.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 1:26:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:

Originally Posted By KA3B:
A lot of high dollar "stuff" already has RFID chips inside of them, meaning that you can't disable the chip with the regular scanner gun at the store and that in order to get at the chip you have to almost completly disassemble the item.


Link?



You dare doubt me?


SAFE & SOUND™ RFID Tool Tracking & Service

www.boschtools.com/about-bosch-tools/press-room/Safe-SoundRFIDToolTracking.htm

Bosch Pioneers RFID Tool Tracking with SAFE & SOUND Service Offering

Mount Prospect, Ill. January 13, 2005 – Today, Bosch Power Tools and Accessories and Bosch Digital Power Tools, divisions of the Robert Bosch Tool Corporation, announced the launch of SAFE & SOUND™, the first service to provide the construction industry with the cutting edge RFID (Radio Frequency Identification) technology necessary to gain the operational and cost savings that next generation tool management, tracking and anti-theft applications offer.

Bosch recognizes that RFID tags are the next step in the evolution of tool tagging solutions and compatible with any tool management, tracking and anti-theft application. So, in partnering with the world’s top companies – ToolWatch®, Intermec® and the number one electronic article surveillance (EAS) supplier, Bosch formed SAFE & SOUND, the industry’s only one-stop, full-service RFID tool tracking and theft deterrence resource.

To date, a small percentage of companies have experienced the financial, operational and anti-theft benefits related to implementing tool tracking systems. But while back end software is perfected, the actual tagging and scanning process still relied on adhesive bar code labels applied to the tool’s exterior housing, discouraging many from adopting these applications. But now, Bosch provides the solution.

RFID technology is the long awaited, durable and accurate tool tagging solution. Protected from the elements and secure within any tool, RFID tags, unlike bar code labels, cannot be damaged, rendered unreadable or simply removed. In fact, with RFID, tool crib managers can scan a tool without ever removing it from the plastic box, case or cloth bag.

“By offering construction companies RFID, Bosch opened the door for the industry, as a whole, to refine the technology’s application and vast potential,” said John Doherty, product manager, Bosch Digital Power Tools. “Today, companies can start by implementing tool tracking systems with confidence, while tomorrow’s potential is practically infinite.”

For companies interested in RFID and anti-theft, Bosch SAFE & SOUND offers the opportunity to purchase:

New Bosch power tools with product and serial number information already burned to passive RFID tags secured inside the tool.

Provided with a list of corresponding serial and product numbers for current Bosch or other manufacturers’ products in inventory, passive RFID tags with the serial and product number burned in for insertion by a qualified service professional.

RFID compatible ToolWatch® SE tool tracking software and corresponding mobile scanning hardware.

An additional level of theft deterrence through EAS security tagging, free of charge. Accompanying every RFID tag, either inserted or supplied, Bosch will include an EAS tag designed to trigger jobsite Acousto-Magnetic™ security portals installed at gates and entryways. Bosch also plans to resell portals.

SAFE & SOUND offers nearly 70 passive RFID tagged tools, complete with product and serial numbers. These include demolition and breaker hammers, combination hammers, cordless and corded rotary hammers, small and large angle grinders, cutoff machines, cordless and corded construction saws, cordless multi-tool combo kits, corded and cordless reciprocating saws and cordless drill/drivers.

RFID Tool Tracking Systems, such as ToolWatch SE, afford companies significant financial and operational savings in the tens of thousands of dollars with a higher level of control over their tools and equipment, not to mention a competitive advantage. Tool tracking helps companies complete jobs faster and for less money. Tool cribs are managed with pronounced efficiency and tool inventories are where they should be at all times for smoother and quicker jobs. Even theft, often internal, reduces by half. When employees are accountable for their tools through tool tracking systems, tool retention on individual jobsites rises up to 96 percent. ToolWatch SE is available for purchase through SAFE & SOUND.

Jobsite Equipment Theft is grossly out of hand with industry loss estimates up to one billion dollars annually, according to a 2003 National Equipment Register study. Tool tracking and management systems provide one level of security, but a large percentage of theft includes tools disappearing from jobsites at the end of the workday. Recognizing this issue, Bosch plans to resell rugged jobsite Acousto-Magnetic security portals designed for gate entrances and exits and activated by special EAS security tags. Inserted into tools simultaneously with RFID tags, Bosch SAFE & SOUND provides EAS tags free of charge, whether purchasing a new tool or tags for existing inventory.

Similar to retail environments, in practice, the portal sounds an alarm when an EAS tagged tool passes through it, alerting jobsite security and management to a problem. Available with varying coverage areas for both personnel and larger equipment/machinery gates, each portal is designed to attach to any fence or gate system for a secure entry and exit point. Designed to deter the unwanted removal of equipment from the job, companies managing larger jobsites will appreciate the ability to implement this SAFE & SOUND piece of mind.

New RFID and EAS enabled Bosch tools will be available within 60 days as special order through regular distribution outlets for an additional charge of two to three percent. RFID and EAS tag sets for inclusion in existing inventory will be available through Bosch Factory Service Centers in the same time frame at a cost of approximately $5 per set. Bosch Factory Service Centers will also provide RFID and EAS tag set insertion services free of charge for existing Bosch tool inventories. Individual prices for ToolWatch SE and Security Portals vary by customer needs. Those interested in SAFE & SOUND can contact Bosch customer service at 877-BOSCH-99 or visit www.BoschTools.com.

About Bosch and Bosch Digital Power Tools

In December 2002, Bosch Power Tools and Accessories created the Digital Power Tools line to help field project managers be more efficient in their work, communicate more effectively with subcontractors and customers, and save time and money in the office, tool crib and on the jobsite. With the expansion of this line, Bosch once again shows its commitment to its customers. For more information about Bosch, call toll free at 877-BOSCH-99 (877-267-2499) or visit www.BoschTools.com.

About Bosch North America:
In addition to power tools and accessories, in North America the Bosch Group manufactures and markets automotive original equipment and aftermarket products, industrial automation and mobile products, security technology, packaging equipment and household appliances. Overall, Bosch employs more than 23,300 associates in more than 80 facilities throughout North America and reported sales of $6.6 billion in 2003. Visit www.bosch.us
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 1:28:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2005 1:37:27 PM EDT by Daytona955i]
Sure, RFID tags have the potential to invade personal privacy, but that would pretty much mean having mandatory chips inbedded in our shoulders. (ETA And very expensive RFID equipment everywhere and a HUGE central database or string of databases with THOUSADS of terabytes of data storage capacity. /ETA) I actually think I read an article where Japanese parents planted GPS technology in the children so they could be found or tracked.

All the personal security and all those Big Brother stuff isn't what RFID technology is good for.

Your personal information is pretty much available now anyway, the hard part is identifying.

What RFID tags are good for is tracking products until they are actually on the shelf. To do that you just need to put the tag on the box or pallet that everything is in or on. This way you don't have to physically search out all items with a bar code scanner, you just flip a switch and a computer scans the warehouse for all the inventory and displays it on the screen.

You can do inventory check in and out just by whats inside or outside the door.

This is a much more accurate way to use accounting standards and stocking statistics and should actually lower the cost of goods. This is because if valid data is known for inventory, tied in with consumer purchasing statistics, companies can have better turnover ratios, which means goods sit around for less time, so they save space. Space = money.

ETA again: It would be cheaper to use GPS in everything that all you tinfoil hat types have a problem with, and lots of people here love GPS.

Link Posted: 10/2/2005 1:30:34 PM EDT
Since I consult in this industry I can tell you that 95% of the claims you will hear in the alarmist press on RFID is crap. First - RFID has been around and used in many application for 15+ years. The alarmist claims that someone can read passive RFID tags at these phenomenal distances are great headline grabbers but not borne out by the facts and current science. I want someone to demonstrate reading a passive RFID inside your house from the street with an antenna smaller than an 18 wheel tractor trailer rig and less RF than it takes to pop microwave popcorn. Sure - if you put a tag the size of a newspaper on the items an orient it perfectly to the street - maybe you have a chance with a reader costing $10,000 or more.

Tags are easily permanently disabled at checkout - and most retailers plan to do this. I'll also point out that the current initiatives for RFID by big name retailers (Wal Mart et al) are tagging at the case, tote and pallet level ONLY - so I guess you should worry if you are taking home a case of jeans or a pallet of stereos.

Did the alarmists mention that the RFID contains ONLY a series of numbers and NO product information AT ALL? I didn't think so.... The only way to tell what the series of numbers means is to have access to the database that cross-references it to a specific product.

The same liberal alarmists that oppose you owning firearms are the same Chicken Littles that are running around crying "The Sky is Falling" on RFID. For those not in the supply chain business I will point out that the alarmist fears that these people are spreading are the same ones that were asserted when barcodes came into common use.

Don't buy the hype and distorted facts not supported by science. Demand real facts and look carefully at alarmist-toned claims.

CWO
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 1:40:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 1:47:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CWO:
Since I consult in this industry I can tell you that 95% of the claims you will hear in the alarmist press on RFID is crap.



Since that industry signs your paycheck, then you are hardly unbiased.


First - RFID has been around and used in many application for 15+ years. The alarmist claims that someone can read passive RFID tags at these phenomenal distances are great headline grabbers but not borne out by the facts and current science. I want someone to demonstrate reading a passive RFID inside your house from the street with an antenna smaller than an 18 wheel tractor trailer rig and less RF than it takes to pop microwave popcorn. Sure - if you put a tag the size of a newspaper on the items an orient it perfectly to the street - maybe you have a chance with a reader costing $10,000 or more.


Whether a tag is read at a foot or a mile is irrelevant. What is relevant is that someone can, without your knowledge or approval, access data on an item you purchased. I don't go into a store and say, "give me a drill and an RF tag", I purchase a product, and what I do with that product after I purchase it is my business and nobody else's. Not the guy sitting next to me on the bus, not the guy going through my garbage when I throw it out.


Tags are easily permanently disabled at checkout - and most retailers plan to do this.


They will do it when there is consumer or legal pressure to do so. "Planning" to do something has as much credibility as a politician's promise.


I'll also point out that the current initiatives for RFID by big name retailers (Wal Mart et al) are tagging at the case, tote and pallet level ONLY - so I guess you should worry if you are taking home a case of jeans or a pallet of stereos.


No problem there, however they handle their internal warehousing & distribution logistics is their business. What remains after the product transfers hands is solely the consumer's business.


Did the alarmists mention that the RFID contains ONLY a series of numbers and NO product information AT ALL? I didn't think so.... The only way to tell what the series of numbers means is to have access to the database that cross-references it to a specific product.


CURRENT RFID contains no product information. Future RFID will incorporate all sorts of stuff, date of sale (for warranty purposes) and so on.


The same liberal alarmists that oppose you owning firearms are the same Chicken Littles that are running around crying "The Sky is Falling" on RFID. For those not in the supply chain business I will point out that the alarmist fears that these people are spreading are the same ones that were asserted when barcodes came into common use.


Nonsense. You can see a barcode and it usually is discarded with the packaging. The location and nature of RFID chips is not likely to be disclosed (to avoid their being removed while in the store).


Don't buy the hype and distorted facts not supported by science. Demand real facts and look carefully at alarmist-toned claims.

CWO



There is plenty of technology to support RFID capabilities far in excess of a simple dumb passive tag. What is critical is whether the technology will be abused.

Link Posted: 10/2/2005 3:16:02 PM EDT
Tell you guys what, I'll talk to some of the RF engineers at work this week and see if anyone can come up with a cheap, effective way to permenantly disable RFID tags and perhaps be able to search out the ones that are hidden.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 3:28:59 PM EDT
Making them go poof might be a bit of a challenge, protecting electronics is big business, and many of the same techniques apply to protecting circuitry from deliberately induced overloads. In an implantabledevice, the problem of delivering enough energy without damaging surrounding tissue becomes an issue.

RFID is not inherently evil, but the possibility for abuse is certainly there. Look at EZ-Pass, supposed to reduce toll booth congestion, win-win, right? Until the DOT figures out that you can use the delta time between entry and exit to calculate the average speed and instantly deliver a ticket... or 4473's which are supposed to be destroyed but aren't, or credit information about you that is sold by third parties for their profit, and for which your access is limited, and on and on...

Don't know about anyone else, but I am not much interested in an Orwellian society where everyone is videotaped and monitored 24 x 7. Things like RFID, if abused (and they will be, even if not initially intended, take it to the bank) are just another chip (p.i.) in the foundation of freedom that makes this country unique.

Link Posted: 10/2/2005 3:38:17 PM EDT
just wait til after the next AQ terorist attack when .gov says we have to rfid our bodies. this will be the beast system talked about in revelations
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