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Posted: 6/11/2009 8:56:37 PM EST
How much can you haggle with a dealer?
Every price I have seen has been far and above KBB retail list. Also how do you deal with the tax,title,doc fees?
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 9:00:08 PM EST
Tell them you have this amount, and want this car, if they play any games you are walking. Suddenly they talk to a mgr. and see they can do it. I've seen local dealers 30-50 percent off KBB. So deals are to be had. Usually a place pays 50% kbb, but currently they pay 30% them selves so they make money even at the 50% kbb price.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 9:16:37 PM EST
Thanks
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 9:21:29 PM EST
Just to give you an example my dodge truck was valued 4500-5500 around 5 months ago, had the dealer KBB it and it was worth 2k max, after many new parts. I was floored, so I left there and said no thanks if you are gonna assault me at least throw some ky and lipstick on, they didn't know what to say. So the rule of thumb is anything is negotiable.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 9:36:49 PM EST
It great that your truck is only worth 2K when they are buying it, but if they are selling it........


I wouldn't be shocked to see at tag that says $6,495 in the window.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 9:38:34 PM EST
But by how much? I commonly see vehicles kbb valued at $7500 listed at $9999 plus the $1400 title ,doc & transfer fees. If i saw a firearm listed online for 25%+ over value I wouldn't bother wasting their time or mine.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 9:41:54 PM EST
I would at the least take the current KBB, -30% remember it is a starting point you "lowball" they high ball its all a game. If all else fails walk into the place and say I've got this much if you can't get my x for x price I'm walking to this dealer who can. If possible get a bidding war going. Remember, the beauties of the free market, they don't have to sell for what you want, but I would be willing to bet someone else will. Its a buyers market.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 9:52:22 PM EST
Apparently it's not a buyers market around here because the only response I get when offering kbb retail is a chuckle and "we can't do that".
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 9:59:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By u352:
Apparently it's not a buyers market around here because the only response I get when offering kbb retail is a chuckle and "we can't do that".


I guarantee that you indeed can, they just hope that you buy into it. Tomorrow morning you give a call to 3 of the closest local used car dealers, not certain if you have a trade in or not, tell them you are looking for these types of cars, trucks, suvs etc. Tell them you currently have an offer for this type of car at this price, can they beat it? Tell them you have cash in hand and if they can do this car for this price, you will be in within 15 minutes to make a purchase. This is what I always do. Works every time!
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 10:29:48 PM EST
I told a dealer 4 months ago that I would give him KBB retail for his Grand Marquis. I got a nice email reply thanking me for my interest and then nothing.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 10:33:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By u352:
I told a dealer 4 months ago that I would give him KBB retail for his Grand Marquis. I got a nice email reply thanking me for my interest and then nothing.


Try the dealer price match game. If you still can't do it, perhaps you may be interested in a certain car out my way, that are 30-50% of kbb for nice cars, and could ship it and still be under price? May be more hassle but still is an option. Good luck though.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 10:36:24 PM EST
How much do you reckon it is to ship from coast to coast?

If you get a chance log out and log back in again.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 10:37:04 PM EST
You'll virtually always pay more at any kind of dealer than from a private individual...overhead's a bitch. Last car I bought was at 70% of private party value. I had enough left over in the difference to do a new timing belt and some other good stuff.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 10:38:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/11/2009 10:41:58 PM EST by Chromekilla]
Originally Posted By u352:
How much do you reckon it is to ship from coast to coast?

If you get a chance log out and log back in again.


I did, I can run a couple of quotes for you! IM inbound!
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 11:44:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By NathanJK:
You'll virtually always pay more at any kind of dealer than from a private individual...overhead's a bitch. Last car I bought was at 70% of private party value. I had enough left over in the difference to do a new timing belt and some other good stuff.


I understand they have to charge more for reconditioning and what not. What I am runnining into is the askimg price is far and above the kbb retail price.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 5:44:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By u352:
Originally Posted By NathanJK:
You'll virtually always pay more at any kind of dealer than from a private individual...overhead's a bitch. Last car I bought was at 70% of private party value. I had enough left over in the difference to do a new timing belt and some other good stuff.


I understand they have to charge more for reconditioning and what not. What I am runnining into is the askimg price is far and above the kbb retail price.


Would you happen to may or may not have any knowledge of a certain membership granting taking place on or around the 12th of June at 10o'clock pm? How has your search went? Did you like any of the ones that I IMed you? Also did you try the negotiating trick?
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 5:50:19 PM EST
Cash is king. Always be ready to walk. Just remember to keep the I 'could' buy it, but I don't have to attitude.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 5:50:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 2:46:26 PM EST by anekrel]
Originally Posted By u352:
Apparently it's not a buyers market around here because the only response I get when offering kbb retail is a chuckle and "we can't do that".


Go in with a range that you can work with. From KBB being lowest, but don't be afraid to come up a bit. The dealer is going to want to make a profit on it, so allow a bit for that––but not too much that the price becomes unmanagable.

Don't be afraid to say "no", either even if you really want the car. If they're going to be schmucks about it, let them be schmucks but schmucks that don't have your money.

The guys who sold me my truck did the "turn down my price" thing when I was giving them a fair offer, and I told them have a nice day and got as far as my car before they stopped me with a much more manageable offer. I haggled with them from noon til sundown, too.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:25:23 PM EST
It's been my experience that when a buyer clearly identifies himself and ready to buy and right now, then the dealer will get serious about trying to sell a car. It seem most dealers get jaded talking to window shoppers and will not expend any effort unless you dangle a carrot. Good examples above.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:41:08 PM EST
A couple years ago when I looked at trading out my truck the dealer told me that my truck was a dime a dozen, they couldn't give them away, and for trade it wasn't worth more than $7,000. NADA on it at the time was over $10,000k. I said no thanks and left. I just happend to check their website when I got home and saw a truck just like mine listed except it had twice the miles and had the base package instead of the SLT package. They wanted $12,900 for it. That is how they take advantage of people. I wrote the dealship a nasty letter about how dishonest they were and I've never been back to them.

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:43:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 7:46:56 PM EST by Skillshot]

Originally Posted By u352:
How much can you haggle with a dealer?
Every price I have seen has been far and above KBB retail list. Also how do you deal with the tax,title,doc fees?

I haggled until he pulled out the invoice for what he paid for the car and said he couldn't go any lower since I was already $300 below that number!

This week marks 110,000 trouble free miles in that car. That's 9.9 cents per mile including everything I've ever spent on it.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:57:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By u352:
How much can you haggle with a dealer?


Depends on the dealer, how much he has in the car, how much he spent reconditioning the car, how close to the end of its floor plan time, if and how desirable your trade-in is, how many "extras" you are buying (rims, tires, stereo, pin stripe, undercoat, bra, window tint...if he sells such things..), if you are financing through him, how many cars you've bought from him before, how SERIOUS about buying RIGHT NOW you are. Basically, $$$ talks, and B.S. walks.

Every price I have seen has been far and above KBB retail list.


Kelly Blue Book is utterly useless. If you are going to play with the dealers, use the same book they do - the N.A.D.A. book. And understand 3 things -

1. ANY book is out of date by the time its published - its a guideline - but a good guideline.
2. Mileage, option appearance, and CONDITION have a huge effect on the value of a car. A car can have thousands of dollars worth of damage from hail that is nealy invisible to the untrained eye, and a recondition or salvage title can reduce value by up to 50%. High mileage or lack of desirable ttrim levels or options can also torpedo book value. Two identical cars, but one with more "curb appeal" because of color, stripes, hubcaps, whatever - guess which one the dealer will bend the most on?
3. Unless he took it trade in or part of a package to get something else, the dealer is going to buy the car at auction or trade-in at "loan value" - he is only going to give "wholesale" for a clean, good condition car that he won't have his money tied up n while its mechanically or otherwise reconditioned and that he can "turn over" quickly - and then use that money or credit to buy something else to make money on.
3.

Also how do you deal with the tax,title,doc fees?


Two answers for this - the hard one, and the easy one:

Hard one: If you can't pay for TT&L out of your pocket, you can't afford the car. That's the hard truth.
Soft one: You MIGHT find a dealer willing to roll those into the total sale price, especially if he is financing you - but he is going to get a surcharge for his trouble, AND you will get to pay interest on what should have been an out-of-pocket expense. Not smart, money-wise....

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:13:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 8:20:27 PM EST by Templar223]
My last experience in the "used car" arena was well before the current "downturn".

In a nutshell, I shopped the local lots for what I wanted. Same model year with 15K miles... a "demo", "program" or whateverthefuck they call a low-mileage, slightly used car that given month. In Champaign (pop. 250K county, 100K city), they wanted 16,900 (stickered for not quite 23K when "brand new" before breaking the curb). I offered 14,800 and while schmucko was playing the "let me talk to my manager" game, I had the sinking feeling that I offered way the fuck too much. He finally came back and said they could knock a couple hundred off the 16/9 but no way they could go 14/8. I walked. Met zero effort from the 21-year-old kid to save the deal.

Drove north to Rantoul... they didn't have what I wanted there (wanted 6 cyl Stratus), so I drove up to Gibson City, or about 50 miles north of Champaign. Small town, 5K population. Petersen's. Met the manager who was in jeans doing some landscaping at the new facility as the place was about to close for the day (they closed at noon on Sat IIRC). My kinda people. No bullshit. No games. Very informal. He showed me the same car the Champaign dealership had, only silver instead of sandy brown with only 2K more miles. Whatcha want for it? Oh, I'd take 13/6. (That was way below the loan value, BTW). We went for a drive and he accepted high 12K for it (13,500ish after taxes, etc) and offered me 2% financing.

Turns out it was a former rental car from FL (no salt) in excellent condition bought at auction. Car's been great to me and now has almost 100K miles.

Kid from Champaign dealership called the Monday afterward and asked if I was still interested in that car as they could "sacrifice" it for 16,500 if I was still interested. I told him I bought effectively the same car (same engine, packages, etc.) for less than 13K at Petersen's. I don't think he believed me, but he didn't call back anymore.

Shop around, have your KBB/NADA book listings for the car you're looking for, have financing pre-approved if you need it and oh, did I mention, shop around?

John
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:23:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 8:29:21 PM EST by NoFnNamesLeft]
*Roughly* dealer adds 4-4.5K to what it was traded in for.
KBB value-forget it.
Try Edmunds
They seem to be more in touch with what things are selling for.

Negotiate all prices as though it's a cash deal w/ no trade.
Bring your own financing.
Tax, title, other legal/state stuff, deal with it.
Post deal fees added by the dealer (prep, dealer fees etc)...... offer your original price and be ready to walk. You probably won't make it all the way back to your truck.

Are you working with local dealers or big used car chains?
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:26:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 8:33:19 PM EST by LA_357SIG]
I usually figure %25 off sticker price and they pay TT&L and I usually sgo for a freebee like window tint or at least a hat. I have only done this with cash though.

And the last 2 times I financed a vehicle, I always refused to deal with salesmen. I only deal with managers and "consultants" or whatever that guy was at the Acura dealership. Anyway, a cash bribe always works. (edit to add: when trading in a car) Take $1-200 cash and tell the manager what you want to pay as long as it's reasonable he'll work it out with the finance manager.

Remember, money talks.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 9:05:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 8:58:19 AM EST by tax_monster]
Tax, title & license fees (TT&L) are due to the state and can't be avoided, but I refuse to pay a dealer documentation fee.

With the last few cars/trucks I've purchased I told the finance guy up front that I don't pay doc fees. They can make their money on markup, hold back and volume incentives from the manufacturer, but I'm not paying a doc fee. I've avoided it entirely on all but one because the finance guy told me (honestly and up front) that the sales manager will simply refuse the offer, so I asked for an additional discount equal to the doc fee, so it would look like I was paying it. They agreed.

Don't ask for dealer financing - arrange your own up front or pay cash.

I'm fond of the one price deal myself. I figure out what I'm willing to pay, add taxes & licenses and make the offer as an out the door price, and tell them they can write it up any way they want. If they want to show a dealer prep fee of $4000 and a doc fee of $1000, fine by me, but I'm only paying $ X.

I once had a finance guy demand my social security number on the purchase. I asked why, since I was there with a check as payment in full for my offer (as described above). He said they needed it for the paperwork. I wasn't comfortable with giving that out, especially since I wasn't asking for financing, so I offered him the choice - he could have my ss#, or my check, but not both. He chose the check.

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 9:33:38 PM EST
Used car dealers? I think of folks like this -

Charles Rangel - One of the Used Car Salesman who runs our country.




Or this clown -

Chris Dodd



I could go on and on with other senators and congress critters but we get the jist of it. What amazes me is someone buys a car from these fellas and even after getting screwed, knowing it, they still go back and buy from them again when they need a new car.

Amazing.


Link Posted: 6/17/2009 4:29:22 AM EST
You just insulted the heck out of me, and everyone else who ever sold cars.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 4:48:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:
You just insulted the heck out of me, and everyone else who ever sold cars.


The truth hurts
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 11:28:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By behindenemylines:
Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:
You just insulted the heck out of me, and everyone else who ever sold cars.


The truth hurts


Think about this, genius...without people selling USED cars, few would be able to buy NEW cars. Also name a SUCESSFUL business that doesn't pay less for their merchandise than they sell it for.

Link Posted: 6/17/2009 1:37:41 PM EST
I gotta jump in on this one

Why do you need a dealer to sell a used car? How does getting LESS money than you could sell it for privately help you buy a NEW car?

I see two reasons for used car dealers; 1. Convienence 2. Financing
But you pay for the convienence and pay MORE for the financing. Beyond that, I will stay civil and only say "Caveat Emptor"


Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:
Originally Posted By behindenemylines:
Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:
You just insulted the heck out of me, and everyone else who ever sold cars.


The truth hurts


Think about this, genius...without people selling USED cars, few would be able to buy NEW cars. Also name a SUCESSFUL business that doesn't pay less for their merchandise than they sell it for.



Link Posted: 6/17/2009 2:42:55 PM EST
Guns and cars are very similar in that the dealer is no longer allowed to make a profit. The problem I have with used car dealers is trying to take advantage of the unknowing. (ripping off on trade-ins, selling cars they know to be problems etc.)
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 6:01:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 6:08:13 PM EST by Rabon]
Take them out of the loop, buy from an individual, and while your at it take that fat SOB in the overstuffed chair at the bank out of it also.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 6:38:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 6:39:27 PM EST by JimsZR2]
Just ask Denny Hecker how he does business!
http://kstp.com/news/stories/S982748.shtml?cat=1
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 8:16:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By tax_monster:
Don't ask for dealer financing - arrange your own up front or pay cash.


I find this correct with the cheaper auto makers like Chrysler and GM financing. I financed an Acura through Honda of America and got 1.9% and my wife financed a Volkswagon and got 2.3%. Now when I financed my first Chevy it was @ 13% and when my wife got her Saturn they tried to (with a straight face) offer 19% and she has impeccable credit. (we went through USAA and got it for 3.6%). GM is notorious for selling thier loans to banks (esp. Hibernia) for unbelievably high rates to the uninformed.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 8:41:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:
Originally Posted By behindenemylines:
Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:
You just insulted the heck out of me, and everyone else who ever sold cars.


The truth hurts


Think about this, genius...without people selling USED cars, few would be able to buy NEW cars. Also name a SUCESSFUL business that doesn't pay less for their merchandise than they sell it for.



Oh great...I'll give you my wallet...and you give me back what you think I should have.

Boo fucking hoo...

I do my research and haggle for the best deal when I buy a car used or new...if that "insults" you.... someone else wants to meet their quota and would be more than happy to deal with me.



Link Posted: 6/17/2009 8:49:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By clivus:
Guns and cars are very similar in that the dealer is no longer allowed to make a profit. The problem I have with used car dealers is trying to take advantage of the unknowing. (ripping off on trade-ins, selling cars they know to be problems etc.)


Don't have a problem with the guy making a profit...

But I don't want to get fucked either....

I do my research and make a fair offer...if they don't like it...someone else will take it.

Someone always does...


Link Posted: 6/18/2009 3:40:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By Chromekilla:
Would you happen to may or may not have any knowledge of a certain membership granting taking place on or around the 12th of June at 10o'clock pm? How has your search went? Did you like any of the ones that I IMed you? Also did you try the negotiating trick?


Possibly

Still roaming around looking at local dealers. Thanks for all the advice.

Link Posted: 6/18/2009 6:05:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By MultipleFractures:
I gotta jump in on this one

Why do you need a dealer to sell a used car? How does getting LESS money than you could sell it for privately help you buy a NEW car?



Selling it privately takes time, money, effort, expertise, a certain ability to relate to people, and in some cases, like for single women, its a security risk. A used car dealer is just another example of specialization of labor: he can get the vehicle repaired, detailed, even body work and paint if needed, for less than a privat individual - because he gets LOTS of them done. Because he has more than one car for sale, the odds of any ONE customer finding something he likes is much higher than with a private person selling one car. His advertising costs are lower, because he has more than one car in an add. And from the seller's point of view, they may be better off doing what it is they do for a living rather than take time off to show and try and sell a car. Or they may not like dealing with potential buyers, some of whom can be quite the A-hole. Or they don/t want to wait to sell their car to get their new one - they want the money right now. Or they would rather go on vacation or whatever than deal with retailing the old car.

It's the same reason that some people choose to have a lawn service rather than cut their own grass, or hire some one to replace their roof rather than going to HOme Depo and buying shingles, nails, and a hammer. IF you like meeting new people, have an inate sales ability, and want to commit the time, by all means, retail it yourself. However, not everyone has the ability, time, or desire to do so - and in essence, hire a professional to do it.

Link Posted: 6/18/2009 6:07:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By pv74:


Oh great...I'll give you my wallet...and you give me back what you think I should have.

Boo fucking hoo...

I do my research and haggle for the best deal when I buy a car used or new...if that "insults" you.... someone else wants to meet their quota and would be more than happy to deal with me.


What insulted me was comparing my father (and myself) to Rangle and Dodd...I don't know about where you live, but around here, them's fightin' words....

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