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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 10/7/2005 7:32:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 7:34:17 AM EDT by Slacker]
If you get stopped, talked to, questioned etc by LEO (for instance a DWI roadblock) and your CCW is unloaded but conclealed, are you still required to declare CCW to LEO? Grey area? Anyone know of any cases of this?
Unless searched, the LEO would of course never know you were CCW, but I'm asking about the legal issues regarding not declaring an unloaded CCW to officer snuffy.

I hit a roadblock this past weekend and when I saw the lights ahead unloaded my CCW figuring I'd make it safe to pass to officer snuffy. However, he looked at my DL and waved me through. I didn't mention the unloaded weapon as it was a very brief stop. Did I break the law?
ETA: In NC?
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:33:24 AM EDT
In Texas....yes.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:34:09 AM EDT
1) Never unload your weapon. That's a bad idea, period - for a number of rerasons.

2) laws vary from state to state on whether you have to declare your CCW.



Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:35:21 AM EDT
Why is a bad idea to make my weapon safe in anticipation of giving it to officer joe who may or may not know gun saftey basics?




Originally Posted By arowneragain:
1) Never unload your weapon. That's a bad idea, period - for a number of rerasons.

2) laws vary from state to state on whether you have to declare your CCW.




Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:39:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Slacker:
Why is a bad idea to make my weapon safe in anticipation of giving it to officer joe who may or may not know gun saftey basics?




Because you might shoot yourself while unloading (you were driving? Driving and playing with guns aren't two activities that should be performed together).

Because if your CCW is legal, the officer basically has no reason to handle your CCW.

Because unloaded guns are useless. What if the roadblock was a trap, and not real cops? (A stretch, I admit - but stranger things have happened...)

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:41:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Slacker:
Why is a bad idea to make my weapon safe in anticipation of giving it to officer joe who may or may not know gun saftey basics?




Originally Posted By arowneragain:
1) Never unload your weapon. That's a bad idea, period - for a number of rerasons.

2) laws vary from state to state on whether you have to declare your CCW.







I'm not a LEO, but I would guess if it's a routine stop you would not need to hand over your heater.

1. Get pulled over.
2. Hand LEO your DL and your CCW permit.
3. LEO asks you what type of pistol you are carrying and you BS about guns for the next 2 min.
4. You are sent on your merry way.

That's how it should work
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:42:47 AM EDT
www.packing.org You may not have to disclose it at all. I hand my CHL over during trafdfic stops, because they are dangerous for the cop and he's likely to be keyed up. I don't worry about it if I'm just chatting on the street.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:47:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 7:47:48 AM EDT by Dan12]
If you are required to declare it loaded, then I would loaded or not. He does not know the difference, and I would not want to become a statistic on accidents.

Besides, aren't most people shot with unloaded guns? It seems like all of the accidental shootings I read about happen with unloaded guns.

Dan
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:48:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 7:54:41 AM EDT by Alien]
Why would it be any different? It's still a weapon. A gun for all intents and purposes is a weapon whether loaded or unloaded. If your local laws require that you inform your officer that you have a weapon, or if the officer asks, you are obligated to tell him you have a gun, even if unloaded. That would be like saying a knife isn't a weapon because the tip is broken or it's not very sharp. A gun can still be loaded. How stupid and incriminating do you think you would look when you tell him no and he thinks he has probable cause to search you and your vehicle (person of similar description and vehicle wanted in connection with recent robbery or something else), and then finds the gun on your person or in your vehicle?? "Oh I was just kidding officer!" or "Oh I thought I didn't have to tell you because I didn't have it loaded." Sounds like something you'd see on COPS.

If it had been rendered inoperable by welding the slide/frame together or action shut or welding it in half like they demill receivers on old guns, you might have a case where you don't have to inform the officer.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:52:19 AM EDT
As an aside, i can't imagine a cop asking to actually see your CCW.

I just can't picture a cop saying 'hey, why don'tcha draw down on me so i can see what you're packing?


*IF* a cop wanted to see your pistol, he would probably want to remove it from the car himself - which constitutes an illegal search.

If it was on your person, and he wanted to see it, you would have to step out of the car, and he would have to remove it from your person - which is very dangerous for YOU.

Either way...leave your pistol loaded.

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:55:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 7:59:27 AM EDT by ASNixon]
Yes, in NC you are required to inform the LEO you have a concealed weapon - period. You must present your license AND CCW permit to the officer if you have one. They will not know just by looking at your license. If you are stopped and a radio check is done is another story as your CCW permit is tied to your DL license.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:57:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
As an aside, i can't imagine a cop asking to actually see your CCW.

I just can't picture a cop saying 'hey, why don'tcha draw down on me so i can see what you're packing?


*IF* a cop wanted to see your pistol, he would probably want to remove it from the car himself - which constitutes an illegal search.

If it was on your person, and he wanted to see it, you would have to step out of the car, and he would have to remove it from your person - which is very dangerous for YOU.

Either way...leave your pistol loaded.




Ok, I cannot back up this claim, but my CCW instructor said once when he was stopped, an officer took his weapon and disassembled it and removed all the ammo from the magazine and put it on the hood of his car in a baggie and told him not to retrieve the weapon until the officer had driven down the road. He said he’d heard many similar stories too. I cannot vouch for it since it’s second hand info, but my instructor was prebans, who is on this very board.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 8:04:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Alien:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
As an aside, i can't imagine a cop asking to actually see your CCW.

I just can't picture a cop saying 'hey, why don'tcha draw down on me so i can see what you're packing?


*IF* a cop wanted to see your pistol, he would probably want to remove it from the car himself - which constitutes an illegal search.

If it was on your person, and he wanted to see it, you would have to step out of the car, and he would have to remove it from your person - which is very dangerous for YOU.

Either way...leave your pistol loaded.




Ok, I cannot back up this claim, but my CCW instructor said once when he was stopped, an officer took his weapon and disassembled it and removed all the ammo from the magazine and put it on the hood of his car in a baggie and told him not to retrieve the weapon until the officer had driven down the road. He said he’d heard many similar stories too. I cannot vouch for it since it’s second hand info, but my instructor was prebans, who is on this very board.



Sounds like AZ needs to start screening out sissy-ass paranoids when hiring LEOs.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 8:14:19 AM EDT



Ok, I cannot back up this claim, but my CCW instructor said once when he was stopped, an officer took his weapon and disassembled it and removed all the ammo from the magazine and put it on the hood of his car in a baggie and told him not to retrieve the weapon until the officer had driven down the road. He said he’d heard many similar stories too. I cannot vouch for it since it’s second hand info, but my instructor was prebans, who is on this very board.



Thats not a cop thats a JBT
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 8:17:48 AM EDT
Go to www.packing.org and look up the laws for your state.

Yes, many cops will unload your weapon and give instructions not to re-load until they're gone. But the worst story I heard was of a biker stopped here in WA, the cop saw the gun, took possession of it for the duration of the traffic stop. He ticketed the biker, gave him his gun, but threw his ammo into the roadside ditch effectively disarming the guy. What a dick.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 8:24:02 AM EDT
Unloaded gun= Useless


arowneragain- I have been stopped 4 times by LEO's three of which took my weapon from me.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 8:33:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Unloaded gun= Useless


arowneragain- I have been stopped 4 times by LEO's three of which took my weapon from me.



I've never been asked for my CCW. Last time I got stopped, the cop flipped out because I had an AR laying in the passenger's seat. But he never asked to see it, or my CCW.

(I was actually on the phone with an ARFCOMMER during that stop.....)

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 8:46:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Slacker:
Why is a bad idea to make my weapon safe in anticipation of giving it to officer joe who may or may not know gun saftey basics?




Because you might shoot yourself while unloading (you were driving? Driving and playing with guns aren't two activities that should be performed together).

Aw cmon' man, its a friggin wheelgun. Stopped in traffic waiting my turn to show my papers...I think it was safe enough to dump ammo in my hand.

Because if your CCW is legal, the officer basically has no reason to handle your CCW.

I wish they knew that. Each and every time I've declared CCW I was disarmed...and i'm not a threatening kind of feller

Because unloaded guns are useless. What if the roadblock was a trap, and not real cops? (A stretch, I admit - but stranger things have happened...)

I'm not sure I'd take action based on that line of thinking.


Link Posted: 10/7/2005 8:48:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Unloaded gun= Useless


arowneragain- I have been stopped 4 times by LEO's three of which took my weapon from me.



I've never been asked for my CCW. Last time I got stopped, the cop flipped out because I had an AR laying in the passenger's seat. But he never asked to see it, or my CCW.

(I was actually on the phone with an ARFCOMMER during that stop.....)


I am waiting the next time I get stopped because I have made a habit of carrying either the AR or shotty with me throughout my travel.s
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 8:48:47 AM EDT
I wish I had access to packing.org right now - it seems like TN/MS must have very different laws than NC/VA.

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 8:50:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 8:51:12 AM EDT by arowneragain]

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Unloaded gun= Useless


arowneragain- I have been stopped 4 times by LEO's three of which took my weapon from me.



I've never been asked for my CCW. Last time I got stopped, the cop flipped out because I had an AR laying in the passenger's seat. But he never asked to see it, or my CCW.

(I was actually on the phone with an ARFCOMMER during that stop.....)


I am waiting the next time I get stopped because I have made a habit of carrying either the AR or shotty with me throughout my travel.s




I opened the console of the truck to dig for insurance papers and the cops (both of 'em) were visibly spooked by the presence of a few extra 1911 magazines.

One asked if I worked for a security company .





Link Posted: 10/7/2005 8:51:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 8:53:55 AM EDT by Slacker]
No, its not. Its a controlled machine part. An unloaded gun may legally be a dangerous weapon, but it can be mailed, flown on an airplane and brought onto or through federal property (unloaded).
That means an unloaded weapon is a different thing than a loaded weapon. The normal question is "Do you have any weapons?" IMO, an unloaded gun is not a weapon. How the hell can it be? Fixed bayonet?




Originally Posted By Alien:
Why would it be any different? It's still a weapon. A gun for all intents and purposes is a weapon whether loaded or unloaded. If your local laws require that you inform your officer that you have a weapon, or if the officer asks, you are obligated to tell him you have a gun, even if unloaded. That would be like saying a knife isn't a weapon because the tip is broken or it's not very sharp. A gun can still be loaded. How stupid and incriminating do you think you would look when you tell him no and he thinks he has probable cause to search you and your vehicle (person of similar description and vehicle wanted in connection with recent robbery or something else), and then finds the gun on your person or in your vehicle?? "Oh I was just kidding officer!" or "Oh I thought I didn't have to tell you because I didn't have it loaded." Sounds like something you'd see on COPS.

If it had been rendered inoperable by welding the slide/frame together or action shut or welding it in half like they demill receivers on old guns, you might have a case where you don't have to inform the officer.

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 8:53:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gigmike:
Go to www.packing.org and look up the laws for your state.

Yes, many cops will unload your weapon and give instructions not to re-load until they're gone. But the worst story I heard was of a biker stopped here in WA, the cop saw the gun, took possession of it for the duration of the traffic stop. He ticketed the biker, gave him his gun, but threw his ammo into the roadside ditch effectively disarming the guy. What a dick.




Damn! Well, I guess it's a good thing that I have spare mags in my truck.


Vulcan94
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 2:03:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Slacker:
... The normal question is "Do you have any weapons?" ...


What if the LEO asks if you have any “firearms” on your person?

Anyway, you need to look at the exact wording of your state law.

I suspect most courts would view an unloaded firearm as still being a weapon in this context (esp. since you also had ammunition for it within east reach).

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 2:10:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Slacker:
Why is a bad idea to make my weapon safe in anticipation of giving it to officer joe who may or may not know gun saftey basics?




Because you might shoot yourself while unloading (you were driving? Driving and playing with guns aren't two activities that should be performed together).

Because if your CCW is legal, the officer basically has no reason to handle your CCW.

Because unloaded guns are useless. What if the roadblock was a trap, and not real cops? (A stretch, I admit - but stranger things have happened...)


Even though I find him to be a flaming ass most of the time, I 110% agree arowneragain here.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 2:16:55 PM EDT
Declare if, and only if he asks. NEVER REACH FOR IT AT ANY TIME UNLESS HE ASKS FOR IT, if he asks, do you have any weapons, drugs, or alcohol in the car, calmly say Yes,officer, I am carrying a concealed (whatever) on my (belt, ankle, waist), I have a license to carry it.

Then if you were calm he would tell you to step out of the car so he can retrieve the pistol and will ask you for your concealed weapons license. Then go on to what he pulled you over for.

Ive seen this happen to my dad who was packing his 357 mag revolver. The cop asked him if there was any guns in the car. My dad, with both his hands still on the wheel said yes I am carrying one concealed, I have a license to carry it. Officer checked him out, we left ok.

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 2:20:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Because if your CCW is legal, the officer basically has no reason to handle your CCW.



Both times i've been stopped the officer took my CCW to check if it was stolen. Both times it was in my glove box and he reached in and got it himself. One had me stay in the car, and the other had me get out and stand behind the car. The time I had to stand behind my car, the officer walked back to me and handed me my gun right in the street.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 2:20:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 2:24:04 PM EDT by SkyCatII]
In the state of Michigan, if you are pulled over you are required to do to things if you have a CCW permit.

1. State that you have a CCW Permit, and hand it over with your license.

and

2. Declare whether or not you are carrying (and I would assume loaded or not, how many people have been shot pointing an unloaded weapon at a cop?).

I know around here that most officers, deputies at the Sheriff's Dept. at least feel safer when the guy they pulled over is CCW, and they do not take the weapon. Most figure that If he went through the trouble to carry the weapon legally, that individual is probably not one of the people that the officer/deputy has to worry about. My dad's a deputy at the local S.D. and most of the guys there (that I've talked to, or my dad has talked to) are avid gun nuts, one guy has well over $25,000 of reloading equipment and has given my dad and I free ammo when we go shoot sometimes, because he doesn't have time to use it all.

ETA: Failure to comply, or answer honestly, with those two rules will earn you a quick trip to the county hotel.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 2:27:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 2:57:46 PM EDT by Alien]

Originally Posted By Slacker:
No, its not. Its a controlled machine part. An unloaded gun may legally be a dangerous weapon, but it can be mailed, flown on an airplane and brought onto or through federal property (unloaded).
That means an unloaded weapon is a different thing than a loaded weapon. The normal question is "Do you have any weapons?" IMO, an unloaded gun is not a weapon. How the hell can it be? Fixed bayonet?




Originally Posted By Alien:
Why would it be any different? It's still a weapon. A gun for all intents and purposes is a weapon whether loaded or unloaded. If your local laws require that you inform your officer that you have a weapon, or if the officer asks, you are obligated to tell him you have a gun, even if unloaded. That would be like saying a knife isn't a weapon because the tip is broken or it's not very sharp. A gun can still be loaded. How stupid and incriminating do you think you would look when you tell him no and he thinks he has probable cause to search you and your vehicle (person of similar description and vehicle wanted in connection with recent robbery or something else), and then finds the gun on your person or in your vehicle?? "Oh I was just kidding officer!" or "Oh I thought I didn't have to tell you because I didn't have it loaded." Sounds like something you'd see on COPS.

If it had been rendered inoperable by welding the slide/frame together or action shut or welding it in half like they demill receivers on old guns, you might have a case where you don't have to inform the officer.




You and I may know that it is as harmless/harmful as a rock, but for all intents and purposes it is still a weapon. That's how a cop or anybody else will see it. You are naive if you think that a police officer or judge is going to be accepting of "lying" to a police officer about weapons. Actually, come to think of it, you are down right fucking stupid and people shouldn't be taking legal advice from you.

For all intents and purposes an unloaded gun is still a weapon. And for all intents and purposes all guns are always loaded. Never heard of that safety rule? It's a free country. Do what you want and disobey any laws you want over symantics. It's your choice.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 2:48:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Slacker:
If you get stopped, talked to, questioned etc by LEO (for instance a DWI roadblock) and your CCW is unloaded but conclealed, are you still required to declare CCW to LEO? Grey area? Anyone know of any cases of this?
Unless searched, the LEO would of course never know you were CCW, but I'm asking about the legal issues regarding not declaring an unloaded CCW to officer snuffy.

I hit a roadblock this past weekend and when I saw the lights ahead unloaded my CCW figuring I'd make it safe to pass to officer snuffy. However, he looked at my DL and waved me through. I didn't mention the unloaded weapon as it was a very brief stop. Did I break the law?
ETA: In NC?



Big time.

"Any person who has a concealed handgun permit...shall carry the permit together with valid identification whenever the person is carrying a concealed handgun, shall disclose to any law enforcement officer that the person holds a valid permit and is carrying a concealed handgun when approached or addressed by the officer, and shall display both the permit and the proper identification upon the request of a law enforcement officer."
(§ 14-415.11(a))

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 2:54:03 PM EDT
About 5 years ago my dad got stopped in Parkin, AR. When the cop asked for dad's licence and registration he also handed him his CCW permit, per instructions of his trainer.

The cop upon seeing this immediatedly drew down on my dad, pointing his gun at his head. He told him and his passenger to "get the hell out of the truck NOW!"

They eventually managed to get Barney calmed down, and convinced him that they were not ruthless outlaws on a rampage.

After hearing this, my thoughts on the matter are unless you have to show the permit, don't. There are way too many idiots like this with a badge.

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 2:54:48 PM EDT
In NC, if you have a CCW permit and are armed, you are required by law to inform the LEO when he initially approaches you. It doesn't matter if the weapon is loaded or not. If you fail to do this and the LEo discovered the weapon, you'll be arrested and charged with a CCW violation and your CCW permit will be pulled.
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