Personally I hate unions. I think they are un-American and should be illegal. To me they are just legalized extortion and conspiracies.

Unions=The original American Socialist Party

Boy, is this gonna open a can of worms........

Well, unions arise for two reasons:

Either workers are greedy, or you're not paying them enough.

Well, pay the workers handsomely and you shouldn't have unions and the BS that goes with them.

I'll check back to this thread late in the morning after it's locked because of all the flaming to come.[peep]

I'm not against unions, but....I think it's an individual employee's responsibilty to determine what they think they are worth and to try to negotiate the pay they deserve.  I understand this isn't always easy and unions try to work for long term job stability.

The problem with unions is that for instance in a manufacturing scenario; 80% of people make 90 of a product a day, 10% make 80 of a product a day and 10% make 100 of a product a day and the unions try to get everybody's salary to be the same as the people who make 100 of the product a day.

I do find it disturbing that the main union footholds in this country are in the "neccessity industry" (teaching,trucking, auto manufacturing, home building).  Coincidentally? the last two things are usually the two most expensive things americans purchase.

Of course in these industries there are also school administrators, trucking company owners, auto executives (white shirts), and greedy developers that are the real money makers and part of the problem and cost also.  School districts in our area account for about 66-70% of property tax costs.

One other thing too.  Union members are probably one of the largest segments of the population to own firearms, yet their union higher ups try everything they can (using union member dues) to elect candidates that don't support the second amendment.

So far, of the posts above mine (this one), the posts sum it up.....

Yes, the American worker was far better off 100 years ago, wasn't he? [rolleyes]

I'm a union member. Have been for 15 years. I view them as an unfortunate necessity, one of the checks and balances against unfettered capitalism. Think corporate America has our best interests in mind? Enron, anyone?

I suppose the NRA should be illegal, too. Damn those gun owners for uniting for a common cause, bribing politicians, and threatening them when they won't toe the line.

what a fucking troll, hell america is a union you fucking crack heads.duh [}:D]
love it or leave it

Unions = The death of labor in America.

Does anybody wonder why all of the manufacturing jobs seem to be leaving the country?  The labor unions seem to think it's the companies' fault.  Nice try.  The average DuPont chemical worker makes $60,000 a year.  I worked for DuPont.  Job ain't hard.  Trained for all of 3 weeks to do what I did.  Got $9,000 in 3 months as a summer worker.  I liked the money, but the economy is going to always go to alternate ways of reducing costs.  Sending jobs overseas and changing designation (like what is happening at DuPont Waynesboro, they are going from chemical to textile because of the huge differential in pay) of production to cut salaries is how you the consumer gets shit you can afford.

Welcome to reality.

CEO's make 1000 times what  the average  worker makes

Your point?

You run company..... gasp..... you make lots o' cash.

Much of their salary comes from stock options and the resultant dividends.

Redman, what do you propose those DuPont workers [i]are[/i] actually worth then?

And how much "shit" do you think an average American could afford on what corporations pay foreign workers? Could you live on $5 a day?

For the most part, the idea and creation of the unions was a good thing. I've only worked for a union once, and if I have my choice, it won't happen again.

My last place of employment was union. I was of course contract (non-union). There were a lot of people in my group, that should be pumping gas, not milking a company dry. Fear of union recourse makes it difficult for managers to fire people that really should be fired.

If unions stood up for the people that deserve it, that would be great. Unions shouldn't be job security. They should be a legal means to fight back when you are mistreated by a company.

I know I can't speak for everyone, and don't know how every union works. I can only speak of my own experiences.

By the way, don't assume that it's just "greedy union members" jobs that are being sent overseas. Seems like a lot of software development and customer service jobs are being performed in India and other Far East countries. Even Boeing has been subcontracting some of it's aerospace engineering to hungry Russian engineers. And look at how many corporations are now reloacating their headquarters to tax free havens out of the country. Union represented or not, welcome to the global economy.

Me? Until they find a way to operate freight trains from overseas, I'll just keep on hanging in there.

Certainly not $60,000 a year.

I've dealt with unions before, I know many others who've dealt with unions.  I, and many others, am not impressed with what unions do.  Unions amount to extortion.  Take what's going on with the airlines now.  They are barely holding on for life, laying off people left and right, and the dipshits in the flight attendant union are striking for higher pay.  Explain to me how that makes any freakin' sense.

I don't give a shit what they pay foreign workers.

Y'all folks ever hear of a TRADE union?
It sure is a FAR cry from what you people describe.


TRADE unions:
(Steamfitters,Electricians,Ironworkers,etc.)
Don't originate at any one company.Companies
HIRE them to build things(gasp)WHY??Because
the contractor AND the customer want a QUALITY
PRODUCT that non-union crackhead construction
workers can't provide.

TRADE unions have NO job security AT ALL.....
EXECEPT when the contractor sucessfully bids
new work and needs to retain his/her employees
to do the next job.OTHERWISE it's layoff time.


TRADE unions WORK THIER ASSES OFF!!!!!!!
If you don't think so then go to work with
me some time.You won't make it through the day
and if you do you won't want to come back tomorrow.


The contractors pay us too much money for us to f*ck off.We HAVE to work hard.

But you know what..That's what the contractor
is paying for.I believe they are (and they do too)Getting thier money's worth out of thier
workers.



STEAMFITTERS UA LOCAL#614
Memphis ,TN

Redman, you didn't answer my questions.

As for the airlines, since the companies are in such dire economic straits, exactly what concessions has their upper levels of management made? Pay cuts? Reduced benefits? Perhaps playing a round of golf only once a week? Are they leading by example? Or are their employees merely following the example they do see?

And you should give a shit about what foreign workers earn. They're the people you yourself said we are competing with.

If you're going to introduce new facets into the discussion, please at least be able to address them.

They have been trying to bring a union into where I work for over 10 years (IBM), so far no go. Even with the lay offs of the past (and the ones coming next week) employees are not interested. Basically it comes down to this, the biggest concern to us is our jobs, our pay is adequate and the benefits are good. Joining a union will not guarantee you won't be laid off so why bother, the auto industry has proven that.

Unfettered Capitalism?  You see that as a problem?  Capitalism works best when it's left the hell alone, not regulated or messed with.  Capitalism has the necessary means of working out low pay issues.  If companies are not offering enough for at least a living wage, people won't work for them, they'll work for some other company that is smart enough to figure out that if you pay your employees better, you get better work and production and become MORE profitable than companies offering low pay.  For every economic problem capitalism left to it's own devices has the right way to fix it.

The biggest problem I have with unions is that they hold everyone to the lowest common denominator, an environment I could never work in.  Pay and advancement should be based on merit and ability, not simply how long you have been somewhere.  Do you shine in your field? Are you better at the job than many of those you work with?  If you're union that's too bad.  It doesn't mean a damn thing, you still progress only as fast as the dumbest of the dumb and the slowest of the slow.  That's sure worth paying your dues for huh?

Mike

You can bet your sweet union ass that the nurses were unionized.  Most are, nowadays.

Yep, those good ol' union boys, who burn down their fellow members' homes if the fellow members don't vote right.  Good thing they're such good shots, considering how they were shooting at the Greyhound buses a few years ago when the company kept service going during a strike.  And it's always nice to know that there's a rock for every car windshield that crosses their picket lines.

The WEA (Washington Education Association) has been using about 80% of their dues money to support such great union causes as gay rights and abortion-on-demand, not to mention political lobbying and campaign advertising.  Of course, they refuse to follow the law here and allow members to opt out of that part of their dues -- the ones who try get fucked over by the union bosses. . . .

Good people, unionists.  Salt of the earth.  Hope they get some rock salt in their asses.

unions are why we dont work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, for poverty wages in unsafe conditions. so theyve served a useful purpose.

but like most organizations theyve acquired a life of their own, and now they mostly serve their own hierarchies, and are of little benefit to the actual workers, except that they keep us from having to go back to 12/6. capitalism for all it's virtues, does reward greed.

At one time there was certainly a place for Unions, however, I suspect times have changed and they are no longer releveant.  Unions in the private-manufacturing sector continue to decline and deteriorate---the only place their membership has been growing is in the governmental/service/educational sectors----where they are "politically" favored and legislation has been passed to "favor" them. Unions, unfortunately, seem to be the antithesis of individual achievement and personal responsibility----and, sadly,  they do not seem to serve their members as much as their leaders.

Only 1 problem with unions that I can see. Yhe people in them! How many people here are members of a union that promotes anti-American ideology? What have you done about it? It's the same problem as the American public in general. How the hell could someone like Al Gore win the popular vote in this country? Hillary Clinton? Charles Schumer? Boxer? Feinstein? Unions per se are not the problem.....THE CITIZENS ARE!

At one time unions had a place in the US.  Now I don't think they are necessary with things such as OSHA to regulate working conditions.  I was forced into a union once in a part time job I had and would never belong to one again, because I don't believe in the tactics they use against the company (extortion).

If somebody wants to belong to a private union, thats fine with me, but I think it is BS that public employees such as teachers, and the majority of government employees are able (or required) to be union.  I think more than anything unions rape their members by spending most of their time and dues on political issues, and not salary negotiation like they should.  

Even though I havent been a member of a union for over 2 years they still send me their newsletter and all it does is knock local conservative politicans.  

IMHO all unions can go F themselves.

Unfortunately, history is replete with examples of exactly the opposite.

Carnegie. Steel.

Rockefeller. Standard Oil.

J. P. Piermont. Railroads.

Bill Gates. Microsoft.

Ken Lay. Enron.

Unchecked, the capitalist economic system tends to be abused by those with the means to do so.



Which obviously explains the origins of unions in this country in the first place, right? If the capitalist system is so wonderful and the working masses so fairly compensated, WHY did organized labor ever gain a foothold here?



I view it as holding everyone to the same standard, not benefitting those who can better politick, kiss ass, be a good ol' boy, stab the next guy in the back on their way up the ladder. Basically, elements present in most non-union workplaces that I could never work in.



You're suggesting that merit and ability alone are usually the determining factors of who gets promoted and who doesn't in the non-union workplace is laudible, but laughable as well. My observations don't bear your story out. The guy who just does his job well, keeps his nose to the grindstone, and doesn't politick, kiss ass, go drinking with the boss, etc tends to get overlooked and just stays right where he's at. You know it and I know it.

Please don't tell us you actually said that with a straight face. If so, I would have to conclude that you are utterly ignorant about workplace safety issues.

I'm in a union and wouldn't have it any other way. I know that there can be a bad side to how the union does protect some pieces of shit but if the company follows proper procedure they can terminate the shitty employees. Unions are there to protect the employees rights and to keep the wages fair. Companies will screw you any chance they get. I'm currently laid off due to the company not laying off the outside labor force. My contract states that all outside labor must be laid off before any union employees are laid off. Now the union is fighting for my job and all back pay. If I was not union I would be shit out of luck. Our attorney beleives he will win this arbitration and get our jobs back. This is a perfect example of why unions are good.

Unions are LARGE donators to the Democratic party. Where do  you think they get the money to donate? The Democrats want your guns.

An example...

[b]Labor is doing more than it ever has to support the Democratic ticket, according to John Sweeney, the president of the A.F.L.-C.I.O., who provided a detailed account of labor's plans to help the Democratic ticket this fall.[/b] Contributions to Democratic committees, while significant, are but a fraction of the financial and shoe-leather efforts that unions are planning for the fall, he said.

"The Republicans are going to spend more than ever because they want that house over there so badly," Mr. Sweeney said in an interview in his office overlooking Lafayette Park and the White House. "We can never match them dollar for dollar. But we have people power and an ability to communicate with people one-on-one. They have to try to buy that kind of voter contact."

The A.F.L.-C.I.O. expects to spend about $48 million in the 2000 campaign, compared with about $35 million in 1996, union officials said. Much of the spending in the last election cycle was on television advertisements critical of Bob Dole, the Republican nominee.

But this year the union is redirecting its efforts away from television toward organizing its members to get out the vote. The A.F.L.-C.I.O. and its member unions plan to put 650 full-time workers on the street this fall, organizing every local, every factory and workplace, every shift to mobilize support and turn out union voters, said Steve Rosenthal, the labor federation's political director.

Other unions are planning independent expenditures as well. The American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees plans to spend roughly $3 million on outside efforts, including an advertising campaign sponsored by a union-created group, American Family Voices. The Service Employees International Union will spend as much as $5 million, in addition to its hefty contributions to Democratic committees and candidates.

"These are the largest contributions that the American labor movement has ever made," said Gerald McEntee, president of the 1.3-million-member federation. "Everything is on the table -- the presidency, the leadership in the House and now the Senate -- and our members understand the stakes."


Aviator  [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]

[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=61162[/url]  to see my thoughts.


Aviator  [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]

The original idea of unions was to give a living and fair wage to the employee. At one time that was necessary. Today with minimum wage laws, OSHA, and other goverment intervention I think the unions time is past. We all know "a guy" who is a terrible employee and only keeps his job because of a union.

Having said all that, I doubt we should abolish the whole union idea because corporate america is basically a bunch of greedy bastards. In certian companies the union still may be required to facilitate health care and retirement plans.

I don't have the answer and neither does anyone else.

I'm sure most of us who have an opinion about union one way or the other remember that thread. But thanks for reminding us that you're a scab.

Well, if walking over some State workers Union picket line to help the guys in a Vetterans home makes me a scab, I'm proud to be one.


Aviator  [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]

VOLUNTARY unions are okay by me.

I live in a "right to work" state so no one is FORCED to join a union.

But we have the FREEDOM to assemble into a union if we choose but not exclude anyone from employment if they choose not to.

There's nothing "un-American" about unions - freedom of speech and assembly.

As long as they are VOLUNTARY.

That I can agree with Mac.


Aviator  [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]

Trade unions are the unions I have the biggest beef with. They are all a bunch of overpaid lazy ass people. At least here in Philly they are. Trade unions don't need jod security. They get paid the same on every job. If you get fired/laid off from one job, you can work another job the next day and be garrantied the same wage.Trade union workers are the laziest of the lazy. You don't have to work. All you have to do is show up. Even if they do fire you for being lazy, you will have a new job the next day making the same money. It is fucking ridiculas.Trade union workers in Philly get DOUBLE the pay that they are worth. Carpenters make $27/hour. IF they were not union they would make $12-15/hour which is what they deserve becuase that is what the free market dictates.

On top of all this guys I know personally that are in trade unions take voluntary lay offs as paid vacations. Whenever they don't feel like working they tell the boss they want to be laid off and they sit back and collect unemployment. That is great. You want to be lazy and I have to pay for your vacation. And unemployment is no small amount either. Guys collect $440 a week for nothing, if they were working they would only be bringing home $200 more per week. Why bother working 5 days for an extra $200 when you can sit back and collect?

So in your delusional world, how do you believe that you helped them in the long term? This should be good.

Oh, so people who need to work or just want to work and choose not to follow the party line are scabs....  I am not union and never will be.  I have seen how ugly it gets when these THUGS go on strike. The way they treat their own co-workers and those who oppose them shows us all we need to know about unions.
You can call them scabs, but then that must make you the festering, open wound.

AMEN Mike. I agree 100%
CAPITALIST

Unions were OK until Regan pulled their plug. After the Air Controllers Strike. I belonged to the UAW when I was turning wrenches. I belonged to the Teachers Union in IL when I was teaching Auto Mechanics. Now I belong to DC37 and the local for Lt's and Capt's. They are worthless.
If you read my post in Brothers of the Shield you will see what the FDNY Union is doing. $60 million collected. This was suppose to go to the Widows and Children of the WTC. They are trying to scam these people. Now they are going to be taken to court. The Unions are only has good as it members. If you don't get involved nothing will change.

Nothing wrong with Greed. I'm Greedy. Greed is the reason I get up in the morning. Greed is what makes me better myself. The extra money I earn by being Greedy allows me to buy many of the fine weapons out there and all the ammo to go with it. Greed allows me to eat out at all those nice expensive restaurants like to go to. Greed allows me to purchase a new Chevy 4x4 every 3 years. Greed is the reason I live in the big oppulent house I live in. Seeing a pattern here? Nobody going to restrict the amount of money I earn or tell me I'm making more than my fair share. I'm not a socialist contributing to a collective.

In the words of Gordon Gecko in the movie WALLSTREET  "Greed is good, Greed Works"
CAPITALIST

I ran a telecom installation job in Philadelphia two years ago. Since the unions have Philly sewn up, of course I had no choice but to use guys from the IBEW local to get my job done.

They weren't cheap, as everyone here has pointed out, but they did a fantastic job. The Philly local has a telecom school they send their guys through to teach them things like lacing, dressing cross connect frames, etc. Also, when it came time to do the primary power work (-48V at 600 Amps), I was very glad to have journeyman electricians doing the work instead of $8/hr knuckleheads with only one guy on the crew with any kind of English language communication skills.

They took their smoke breaks and coffee breaks, but they showed up on time, and worked until it was quitting time. When I had to show them how I wanted something done, they had no problem with me picking up a wire-wrap gun or a crimper...as long as they got to stand there on the clock and watch me work. [:D]

Of course, the fact that I grew up in Philly and didn't treat them like criminals helped, I guess. A couple of the guys on my crew were gunowners, and didn't really consider RKBA to be as important as workers' rights and pay issues, which sort of bothered me. One guy bragged about all the work he put in for the Democratic candidate in the election that year. It seemed like for that guy, at least, union wasn't just a job, it was a way of life. Whatever.

Not to ruin this happy little story with some clouds, but I also was a union member for a few months. When I was in college, I worked at a supermarket, again in Philadelphia. I [b]HAD[/b] to join the union to work there, and they got their cut of my pay. I got screwed around on the schedule and assignments a few times too many, so I told them to take their job and shove it. I guess being a union member is great if you're the guy with seniority. How much shiite does a new guy have to eat until he gets to feed it to someone else?

I AM A PROUD MEMBER OF TWO UNIONS AND WOULD NOT HAVE IT ANY OTHER WAY...LOCAL #42 PLUMBERS AND PIPEFITTERS, AND LOCAL 1216 UAW SKILLED TRADES PIPEFITTER. I WILL NOT JOIN THIS ARGUMENT, ONE ON RELIGION, OR POLITICS

Hooray[rolleyes]

Hooray. [rolleyes]

Kinda sorta.  Yes, a significant portion of the reason for the migration of medium skill manufacturing jobs can be attributed to your reason.  

But, an even larger cause has been the ever increasing amount of environmental regulation.  Add the dirt cheap labor available offshore, and you get a recipe for continued departure of these sort of jobs.

Go read the thread in question, you troll. Aviator didn't need or just want to work. He willfully interfered with another man's labor negatiations. And because he helped perpetuate an employment dispute in which he has no long term standing, he made have made the situation for the veterans even worse in the long run by helping to propogate bitterness, ire, and apathy in the employees who continue to work there.

How do YOU treat fellow gun owners who disagree with YOU? Like the guy who only cares about being able to own his fancy shotgun but thinks AR-15s are dangerous? Because you disagree with him and may even have enough backbone to voice so and maybe even not associate with him, are YOU a thug, too? Geez, you get your knickers in a twist simply because some of us don't share your views regarding the politics of certain gun manufacturers. Thug.

So, to recap:

If you're in a union, and making a good living because of it, you're for them.

If you're not in one, or feel like you've been screwed by them, or that they screw the economy, you're against them.


Question:  when is union membership truly voluntary?

So do you believe that keeping another man down or cheating him is acceptable in your pursuit of material wealth?

For God's sake, look at what brought about organized labor in the first place. The dark side of true capitalism.

Last time I checked, I wasn't a socialist contributing to a collective, either.

Hey boomer fuck you and your troll shit !!  I was not refering to aviators post but rather to YOURS !! I replied to YOUR use of the term "scab" when refering to union workers. Why don't YOU go read what I posted again.  

Troll.