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Posted: 10/5/2007 6:08:31 AM EST
Is ULSD the only thing sold at pumps for highway use these days?
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 6:12:58 AM EST
yep
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 6:14:17 AM EST
YES...I call it..."R.D.D."

(Rich Dummy Diesel)
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 6:16:18 AM EST
Off road fuel is the "old fuel".
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 6:17:27 AM EST
depends on where you're at I imagine... all diesel within Portland City limits is 95%ULSD+5%Bio
Various BioDiesel blends (limitedly) available as well.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 6:40:28 AM EST
If you fill at truck stops (with the big nozzles ), some are still LSD. Most truck operators are better informed and the risk of putting LSD in a ULSD engine is less.

Cost estimates for refinery switchover is $13 BILLION. Wonder why diesel is expensive? Here's your sign.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 6:44:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2007 6:44:40 AM EST by Primos]
The EPA is so awesome.



Thank God they protect us from ourselves.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 6:49:25 AM EST
Hell I still run Off road in mine.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 6:51:08 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 7:07:25 AM EST
Here's a good example of a ULSD thread on a diesel forum. TDS

I spent some time over on the EPA.gov site; what a waste of time. Finding out simple stuff was almost impossible, I gave up.

I did see one document that spoke to all diesel being ULSD by 2010 but now can't find it on the crappy EPA site; maybe somone else can find it.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 7:11:42 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 7:12:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By wildearp:
Is ULSD the only thing sold at pumps for highway use these days?
Mostly, yes.

There are a few stations that still offer the Low Sulfur Diesel (LSD) in some pumps and ULSD in most pumps.

I recommend using a fuel additive to increase lubricity.
Biodiesel has excellent lubricity properties in concentration as low as 2% (B02). Most Biodiesel I see around central Texas is 20% (B20). I go out of my way to buy Biodiesel.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 7:13:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By petagunner:
The red stuff runs just fine in my PSD


Just don't get caught!
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 7:14:03 AM EST
Everyone I know is switching to Off-Highway now in pickups. Fuck that ULS Diesel.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 7:15:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 8:29:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
If you fill at truck stops (with the big nozzles ), some are still LSD. Most truck operators are better informed and the risk of putting LSD in a ULSD engine is less.

Cost estimates for refinery switchover is $13 BILLION. Wonder why diesel is expensive? Here's your sign.


We only have one ULSD vehicle in our fleet, but three more are on order.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 9:49:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2007 10:03:43 AM EST by HBruns]

Originally Posted By Merlin:

Originally Posted By HBruns:

Originally Posted By wildearp:
Is ULSD the only thing sold at pumps for highway use these days?
Mostly, yes.

There are a few stations that still offer the Low Sulfur Diesel (LSD) in some pumps and ULSD in most pumps.

I recommend using a fuel additive to increase lubricity.
[b]Biodiesel has excellent lubricity properties in concentration as low as 2% (B02). Most Biodiesel I see around central Texas is 20% (B20). I go out of my way to buy Biodiesel.


+10000.

Diesel lubricity study, enjoy: Diesel fuel lubiricty study results I got it from here: Superdutydiesel.com

Merlin

Requires a log-in to see anything useful at the links you provide.

While I'm not able to see those results -
I think you are referring to this study:
Dieselplace.com results thread
This study was done by Arlen Spicer.
I'm proud to say I contributed $$ to the study I wanted to see how Stanadyne Lubricity Formula compared to other additives. Boy, did I get a surprise!
A 2% Soy Biodiesel mix beat ALL OTHER PRODUCTS by a significant margin.

The full results in PDF form can be had here:
Results file
Downloading this PDF file requires you to register & log on.

About a year ago Mr. Spicer did a similar study on air filters.
It turns out the OEM pleated paper filter has better filtration and holds more dirt before it restricts flow than the high-dollar after market filters (oiled gauze or oiled foam).
For turbocharged diesels, there is NO difference in performance between the OEM filter and no filter at all.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 10:15:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By HBruns:

Originally Posted By Merlin:

Originally Posted By HBruns:

Originally Posted By wildearp:
Is ULSD the only thing sold at pumps for highway use these days?
Mostly, yes.

There are a few stations that still offer the Low Sulfur Diesel (LSD) in some pumps and ULSD in most pumps.

I recommend using a fuel additive to increase lubricity.
[b]Biodiesel has excellent lubricity properties in concentration as low as 2% (B02). Most Biodiesel I see around central Texas is 20% (B20). I go out of my way to buy Biodiesel.


+10000.

Diesel lubricity study, enjoy: Diesel fuel lubiricty study results I got it from here: Superdutydiesel.com

Merlin

Requires a log-in to see anything useful at the links you provide.

While I'm not able to see those results -
I think you are referring to this study:
Dieselplace.com results thread
This study was done by Arlen Spicer.
I'm proud to say I contributed $$ to the study I wanted to see how Stanadyne Lubricity Formula compared to other additives. Boy, did I get a surprise!
A 2% Soy Biodiesel mix beat ALL OTHER PRODUCTS by a significant margin.

The full results in PDF form can be had here:
Results file
Downloading this PDF file requires you to register & log on.

About a year ago Mr. Spicer did a similar study on air filters.
It turns out the OEM pleated paper filter has better filtration and holds more dirt before it restricts flow than the high-dollar after market filters (oiled gauze or oiled foam).
For turbocharged diesels, there is NO difference in performance between the OEM filter and no filter at all.


That's it. Thanks on the note on access. I always try to confirm that my hot links work, but never noticed that non-registered people can't access them.


Link Posted: 10/5/2007 10:29:52 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 10:32:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By HBruns:

It turns out the OEM pleated paper filter has better filtration and holds more dirt before it restricts flow than the high-dollar after market filters (oiled gauze or oiled foam).
For turbocharged diesels, there is NO difference in performance between the OEM filter and no filter at all.


Did I read that right?


Yep.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 10:35:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 10:37:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By Primos:
The EPA is so awesome.



Thank God they protect us from ourselves.


Not to mention the negative reports being heard about the DPF and associated emissions crap.


Mostly due to tuner equipment not compliant with DPF and/or running LSD in ULSD only DPF vehicles. It will destroy the DPF in three tankfulls or less. Non DPF trucks can run anything.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 10:40:56 AM EST

For turbocharged diesels, there is NO difference in performance between the OEM filter and no filter at all.


I wholeheartedly disagree

Link Posted: 10/5/2007 10:40:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 10:45:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By HBruns:

It turns out the OEM pleated paper filter has better filtration and holds more dirt before it restricts flow than the high-dollar after market filters (oiled gauze or oiled foam).
For turbocharged diesels, there is NO difference in performance between the OEM filter and no filter at all.


Did I read that right?


Yep.


Everything I've been told over the years tells me that would be the death of my engine, to run no filter at all seems to be suicide....


Doing it once on a dyno would do no real harm unless it was a blowing sandstorm. But running it on the highway? Forget it.

Link Posted: 10/5/2007 10:48:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
A couple of question about these diesel additives:

While it appears that lubrication is pretty important, how common is it that the diesel you buy from a gas station does NOT meet the prescribed standard?


Only if you buy from off-brand stores. Any name-brand retailer should be running ASTM spec diesel.

Another good sign is a current meter cert.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 11:53:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2007 12:04:48 PM EST by HBruns]

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
A couple of question about these diesel additives:

While it appears that lubrication is pretty important, how common is it that the diesel you buy from a gas station does NOT meet the prescribed standard?

Fairly often, especially with the new ULSD. Use a good additive.

There a re TWO standards - one put out by the engine builders and another by the vehicle builders. The tighter standard is from the engine builders (designers?). Not too much fuel meets this tighter standard.

ETA -
"Fairly often" means pulling in to any station that sells diesel, off-brand or not.
You have a better chance of getting better fuel at name-brand stores like Keith suggests.

The fuel at the off-brand stores comes from the same source as the name-brand stores. The difference is that additive packages specific to the name brand is added to the fuel as it goes into the delivery truck.

I don't trust my engine to this method. I will add my own fuel additives to be sure. Bare (untreated) ULSD will not meet current lubricity standards.

Filling with B20 is also a good solution.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 11:57:06 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:10:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2007 12:13:14 PM EST by HBruns]

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
So how do guys get the 2% biodiesel? Fill it in a big container at the pump, then buy regular diesel and add a fixed amount from that container to the tank?

The study was interesting, but he also said that the diesel in question was completely additive-free. Is there a drawback to running with too much additive?
Some states, MN for one, require all diesel to have at least 2% Bio. This was for the corn & soybean farmers, not out of concern for the engine.

Several fuel stations, the "Major Brand" off-brand stations sell BioWillie - Willie Nelson's Biodiesel adventure.
The "Signature" Shell stations often have Biodiesel (B20).
Link to locations in the Austin area

ETA - Too much additive bad?
No, there is no downside other than being more expensive.

I have thought of buying B100 and keeping it in 5-gal cans for use as an additive. B100 is not much more expensive than regular diesel.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:12:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By Primos:
The EPA is so awesome.



Thank God they protect us from ourselves.

Yep.

Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:14:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By HBruns:

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
A couple of question about these diesel additives:

While it appears that lubrication is pretty important, how common is it that the diesel you buy from a gas station does NOT meet the prescribed standard?

Fairly often, especially with the new ULSD. Use a good additive.

There a re TWO standards - one put out by the engine builders and another by the vehicle builders. The tighter standard is from the engine builders (designers?). Not too much fuel meets this tighter standard.


Well, the standard is ASTM D6079 for the wear test and ASTM D975 specifies a maximum wear scar of 520 microns. Bosch, Siemens et al have stated they would prefer 460 micron performance but that is debatable as quantification of the wear based on the one test is dubious.

ASTM exists as a common ground between the engine manufacturers (and their suppliers) and the refiners. With the EPA in the middle.

Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:17:22 PM EST
So far the few times I had to run ULSD in my work trucks, I have notice a lost of power. Most of the station around here have switch to ULSD. For work trucks we fill up at Quarles, and they are still using LSD.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:20:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By HBruns:

It turns out the OEM pleated paper filter has better filtration and holds more dirt before it restricts flow than the high-dollar after market filters (oiled gauze or oiled foam).
For turbocharged diesels, there is NO difference in performance between the OEM filter and no filter at all.


Did I read that right?


Yep.


Everything I've been told over the years tells me that would be the death of my engine, to run no filter at all seems to be suicide....


Doing it once on a dyno would do no real harm unless it was a blowing sandstorm. But running it on the highway? Forget it.

Yea - I thought that was fairly obvious.
The context I was referring to was the race track. I know of someone who ran a couple 1/4-mile runs in his Duramax, then discovered he forgot to replace the dirty air filter. He ran another couple runs without ANY air filter and saw no improvement in ET.
This is the source of my comment about no improvement in performance.

When you run the numbers, air filter restriction is measured in inches of water.
Convert this to PSI and a dirty air filter will change the boost levels in a turbo-diesel by no more than one PSI (typically less).
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:21:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:24:51 PM EST
I didn't read the whole thread or links but here is some more reading for you:

www.heavydutytrucking.com/2007/06/030a0706.asp

Fred
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:37:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By HBruns:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By HBruns:

It turns out the OEM pleated paper filter has better filtration and holds more dirt before it restricts flow than the high-dollar after market filters (oiled gauze or oiled foam).
For turbocharged diesels, there is NO difference in performance between the OEM filter and no filter at all.


Did I read that right?


Yep.


Everything I've been told over the years tells me that would be the death of my engine, to run no filter at all seems to be suicide....


Doing it once on a dyno would do no real harm unless it was a blowing sandstorm. But running it on the highway? Forget it.

Yea - I thought that was fairly obvious.
The context I was referring to was the race track. I know of someone who ran a couple 1/4-mile runs in his Duramax, then discovered he forgot to replace the dirty air filter. He ran another couple runs without ANY air filter and saw no improvement in ET.
This is the source of my comment about no improvement in performance.

When you run the numbers, air filter restriction is measured in inches of water.
Convert this to PSI and a dirty air filter will change the boost levels in a turbo-diesel by no more than one PSI (typically less).


Furthermore, boost is controlled electronically and any restriction is EASILY compensated...like you said, "inches of water" one inch of water is 0.036127356 PSI...it takes over 29 inches of water to equal 1 PSI.

Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:38:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By petagunner:
So, what is a good additive for the diesel tard who just wants to pump and go?

I still have a bunch of Stanadyne Lubricity Formula. It came out pretty good on the test, though not as good as I expected.

Fill with a Bio-diesel blend when available. I don't know of any blends lower than 2%, which gives very good lubrication. This is probably your best "Pump And Go" solution.
The Shell Signature station I go to has extra-foamy B20. I have NO idea why this particular B20 foams so much... its just annoying.

Opti-Lube XPD came in second to 2% Bio-diesel. XPD is very new; most places will not have it so buy it on-line.
Other Opti-Lube products did well in the study.

Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:41:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:47:22 PM EST
Here is the funny part. USLD runs cleaner per gallon burned. And gives you lower fuel mileage to compensate and make the same amount of bad shit!

So all you do is pay more. I lucked into some LSD () last night, and got 8.5 mpg all day running I-81 north through VA, WV, MD, and PA

I normally get about 6.4 through here.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:54:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
Here is the funny part. USLD runs cleaner per gallon burned. And gives you lower fuel mileage to compensate and make the same amount of bad shit!

So all you do is pay more. I lucked into some LSD () last night, and got 8.5 mpg all day running I-81 north through VA, WV, MD, and PA

I normally get about 6.4 through here.

Sorry, I missed the funny part.

Yup... the extra work and expense to remove 97% of the sulfur (500 PPM to 15 PPM) also removes a lot of the lubrication AND lowers the energy content of this new diesel wonder-fuel.

By government edict, we are paying more for crappier fuel.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:58:17 PM EST
Doesn't it only lower it by 1%?
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:59:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
A couple of question about these diesel additives:

While it appears that lubrication is pretty important, how common is it that the diesel you buy from a gas station does NOT meet the prescribed standard?


It depends if the wholesaler is mixing at the tanks or if Bubba is supposed to pour a gallon of the additive into the tanks at 0300. If the lattter, it can vary a lot.

I always use PRI-D.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:59:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By HBruns:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
Here is the funny part. USLD runs cleaner per gallon burned. And gives you lower fuel mileage to compensate and make the same amount of bad shit!

So all you do is pay more. I lucked into some LSD () last night, and got 8.5 mpg all day running I-81 north through VA, WV, MD, and PA

I normally get about 6.4 through here.

Sorry, I missed the funny part.

Yup... the extra work and expense to remove 97% of the sulfur (500 PPM to 15 PPM) also removes a lot of the lubrication AND lowers the energy content of this new diesel wonder-fuel.

By government edict, we are paying more for crappier fuel.
Uh huh. And you are thus paying more for everything else you own. Diesel prices don't just effect the amount you spend on fuel each week. When I drop 1mpg+ in this big boy because of it, I'm spending a LOT more each day on fuel. (I ran 650 miles yesterday, you do the math) We pass it on to shippers, who pass it on to consignees, who pass it on to you.

So the huge anal lube free fucking the government is giving us, hurts everyone. Yet no one will do anything about it. Oh wait, they raised minimum wage to make it worse

Why do I think it's funny? Because I'm that laid back, and I'd rather laugh than get pissed.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 12:59:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By petagunner:
So, what is a good additive for the diesel tard who just wants to pump and go?


PRI-D
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 1:00:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Originally Posted By HBruns:

Originally Posted By petagunner:
So, what is a good additive for the diesel tard who just wants to pump and go?

I still have a bunch of Stanadyne Lubricity Formula. It came out pretty good on the test, though not as good as I expected.

Fill with a Bio-diesel blend when available. I don't know of any blends lower than 2%, which gives very good lubrication. This is probably your best "Pump And Go" solution.
The Shell Signature station I go to has extra-foamy B20. I have NO idea why this particular B20 foams so much... its just annoying.

Opti-Lube XPD came in second to 2% Bio-diesel. XPD is very new; most places will not have it so buy it on-line.
Other Opti-Lube products did well in the study.



Ok, so I'm kind of lost or mis-understood you from the get go.

Additives being ALREADY in the fuel at the pump?

Or, in my case, when I fill up the saddle tank weekly and pump from it to my trucks tank, some additive I can put in there? That's what I was hunting at, sorry for my confusion.


Yes. PRI-D.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 1:01:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Ok, so I'm kind of lost or mis-understood you from the get go.

Additives being ALREADY in the fuel at the pump?

Or, in my case, when I fill up the saddle tank weekly and pump from it to my trucks tank, some additive I can put in there? That's what I was hunting at, sorry for my confusion.

Fuel distributors must add fuel additives to diesel so it meets standards.
I don't trust them to do it, and verifying that additives have been added is very expensive.
So... I use my own additives when I fill. I do not have an auxiliary tank, so I add the proper amount of additive to the tank just before pumping fuel. It is something of a PITA, but not bad.

In your case - So long as that fuel in the saddle tank will eventually end up in your truck, I would use additives right from the start (in the saddle tank).

Link Posted: 10/5/2007 1:03:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Doesn't it only lower it by 1%?

That's what they say.


My records indicate otherwise.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 1:07:39 PM EST
For you guys that like the Biodiesel, do not use Crisco as a fuel additive. It is high in trans fats and it can clog up your fuel lines.
However, extra virgin olive oil will work well and not clog your lines. It will not give the french fry smell you probably like, but what the hell, go to McDonalds if you like that smell.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 1:08:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By HBruns:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Doesn't it only lower it by 1%?

That's what they say.


My records indicate otherwise.
Jah.

Yesterday in dandridge, TN is where I got the LSD. I pumped in I think 120 gallons. Between then and the 80 I took on today in Greenville, VA, I got over 8mpg.

Now that 120 I added, mixed with about 78 gallons of USLD. So it didn't have the full impact. The 80 I took on today was USLD. It mixed with about 108 gallons of the USLD/LSD mix. I'm already showing 7.6 mpg as I type this. (and yes my computer is accurate) That mix of old diesel (IT WAR GREEN MR BEAR CUR!) and the USLD affected it that much.


The government is more full of shit than a septic tank.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 1:14:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 1:16:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By HBruns:

Originally Posted By petagunner:

Ok, so I'm kind of lost or mis-understood you from the get go.

Additives being ALREADY in the fuel at the pump?

Or, in my case, when I fill up the saddle tank weekly and pump from it to my trucks tank, some additive I can put in there? That's what I was hunting at, sorry for my confusion.

Fuel distributors must add fuel additives to diesel so it meets standards.
I don't trust them to do it, and verifying that additives have been added is very expensive.
So... I use my own additives when I fill. I do not have an auxiliary tank, so I add the proper amount of additive to the tank just before pumping fuel. It is something of a PITA, but not bad.

In your case - So long as that fuel in the saddle tank will eventually end up in your truck, I would use additives right from the start (in the saddle tank).



This is a good idea. Injectors are expensive.
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