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Posted: 3/28/2014 2:48:17 PM EDT
Reading news stories of the Ruskies massing troops on the Ukrainian border, what are the Ukrainians preparing to do about it? It seems like they want sanctions, but are they moving troops towards the Russian border? They do realize that Vlad is coming one way or another, right?
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 2:50:59 PM EDT
Being that Obama convinced them to turn most of their evil baby killing weapons in, I would guess that they are just waiting for the Ruskies to go in dry.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 2:55:22 PM EDT
What can they do?
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 2:56:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2014 2:56:56 PM EDT by DragoMuseveni]
What is Ukraine doing to repeal a Russian invasion?

The Ukraine government is ordering its citizens to turn in their firearms.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 2:59:35 PM EDT
They dug a tank ditch along the border and replaced the defense minister with someone that will actually communicate with his commanders.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 2:59:56 PM EDT
Stalling for time. Hopping the US and EU magically grow some balls and honor their treaties. What can they do? They lost a bunch of useful military equipment in the Crimea. The Ukraine does not lend itself to defense terrain wise.

Best they could hope for in a direct military conflict with Russia is make Russia pay heavily for every piece of ground it took, let Russia's shit logistical structure slow Russia's military down, and hope someone came to their aid. Feigns at massing useless armor in attempt to draw in Russian air assets and kill them with anti-aircraft. Drawing tanks into ambushes and then using shoot and scoot tactics. Showing up in the rear and destroying supply convoys. More or less fighting a conventional delaying action combined with a guerrilla war.

They will still lose but they might be able to make it so expensive for Russia that Russia ultimately backs down.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:06:45 PM EDT
Changing all the street signs so the Russians invade Belarus instead.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:11:15 PM EDT
I´m guessing they are preparing to draw any confrontation out... the Russians have poor logistical planning and Ukrianians will be supplied by the UK/Poland/Japan/US with Manpads and training if only the military confrontation isn't over in five days.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:13:27 PM EDT
Why do people keep calling it "The Ukraine"? It's not "The Germany" or "The France".
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:15:15 PM EDT
Nothing they really can do right now. For the future, they would have to build themselves up military - which they do not have the money to do. They are in a tough position really.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:17:13 PM EDT
They're hoping for change.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:18:41 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By joshdb50:
They're hoping for change.
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this change?
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:19:59 PM EDT
Yeah, he has worked out real well helping them so far, hasn't he
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:30:58 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BlckM70:
Why do people keep calling it "The Ukraine"? It's not "The Germany" or "The France".
View Quote


They are competing with The Hague, The Vatican, and The United States.

Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:31:17 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By beardog30:
Stalling for time. Hopping the US and EU magically grow some balls and honor their treaties. What can they do? They lost a bunch of useful military equipment in the Crimea. The Ukraine does not lend itself to defense terrain wise.

Best they could hope for in a direct military conflict with Russia is make Russia pay heavily for every piece of ground it took, let Russia's shit logistical structure slow Russia's military down, and hope someone came to their aid. Feigns at massing useless armor in attempt to draw in Russian air assets and kill them with anti-aircraft. Drawing tanks into ambushes and then using shoot and scoot tactics. Showing up in the rear and destroying supply convoys. More or less fighting a conventional delaying action combined with a guerrilla war.

They will still lose but they might be able to make it so expensive for Russia that Russia ultimately backs down.
View Quote

Exactly under what treaty are we supposed to go in and fight for them while being attacked with conventional weapons?
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:32:33 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By klinc:

Exactly under what treaty are we supposed to go in and fight for them while being attacked with conventional weapons?
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Originally Posted By klinc:
Originally Posted By beardog30:
Stalling for time. Hopping the US and EU magically grow some balls and honor their treaties. What can they do? They lost a bunch of useful military equipment in the Crimea. The Ukraine does not lend itself to defense terrain wise.

Best they could hope for in a direct military conflict with Russia is make Russia pay heavily for every piece of ground it took, let Russia's shit logistical structure slow Russia's military down, and hope someone came to their aid. Feigns at massing useless armor in attempt to draw in Russian air assets and kill them with anti-aircraft. Drawing tanks into ambushes and then using shoot and scoot tactics. Showing up in the rear and destroying supply convoys. More or less fighting a conventional delaying action combined with a guerrilla war.

They will still lose but they might be able to make it so expensive for Russia that Russia ultimately backs down.

Exactly under what treaty are we supposed to go in and fight for them while being attacked with conventional weapons?

The one where we guaranteed their sovereignty for giving up their nuclear capabilities.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:35:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2014 3:39:37 PM EDT by klinc]
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Originally Posted By beardog30:

The one where we guaranteed their sovereignty for giving up their nuclear capabilities.
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Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By klinc:
Originally Posted By beardog30:
Stalling for time. Hopping the US and EU magically grow some balls and honor their treaties. What can they do? They lost a bunch of useful military equipment in the Crimea. The Ukraine does not lend itself to defense terrain wise.

Best they could hope for in a direct military conflict with Russia is make Russia pay heavily for every piece of ground it took, let Russia's shit logistical structure slow Russia's military down, and hope someone came to their aid. Feigns at massing useless armor in attempt to draw in Russian air assets and kill them with anti-aircraft. Drawing tanks into ambushes and then using shoot and scoot tactics. Showing up in the rear and destroying supply convoys. More or less fighting a conventional delaying action combined with a guerrilla war.

They will still lose but they might be able to make it so expensive for Russia that Russia ultimately backs down.

Exactly under what treaty are we supposed to go in and fight for them while being attacked with conventional weapons?

The one where we guaranteed their sovereignty for giving up their nuclear capabilities.

Nope.


edit: Not to mention it's not even a treaty.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:39:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By klinc:
Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By klinc:
Originally Posted By beardog30:
Stalling for time. Hopping the US and EU magically grow some balls and honor their treaties. What can they do? They lost a bunch of useful military equipment in the Crimea. The Ukraine does not lend itself to defense terrain wise.

Best they could hope for in a direct military conflict with Russia is make Russia pay heavily for every piece of ground it took, let Russia's shit logistical structure slow Russia's military down, and hope someone came to their aid. Feigns at massing useless armor in attempt to draw in Russian air assets and kill them with anti-aircraft. Drawing tanks into ambushes and then using shoot and scoot tactics. Showing up in the rear and destroying supply convoys. More or less fighting a conventional delaying action combined with a guerrilla war.

They will still lose but they might be able to make it so expensive for Russia that Russia ultimately backs down.

Exactly under what treaty are we supposed to go in and fight for them while being attacked with conventional weapons?

The one where we guaranteed their sovereignty for giving up their nuclear capabilities.

Nope.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ukraine._Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances


Yep
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:40:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2014 3:42:00 PM EDT by klinc]
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Originally Posted By beardog30:

Yep
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
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Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By klinc:
Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By klinc:
Originally Posted By beardog30:
Stalling for time. Hopping the US and EU magically grow some balls and honor their treaties. What can they do? They lost a bunch of useful military equipment in the Crimea. The Ukraine does not lend itself to defense terrain wise.

Best they could hope for in a direct military conflict with Russia is make Russia pay heavily for every piece of ground it took, let Russia's shit logistical structure slow Russia's military down, and hope someone came to their aid. Feigns at massing useless armor in attempt to draw in Russian air assets and kill them with anti-aircraft. Drawing tanks into ambushes and then using shoot and scoot tactics. Showing up in the rear and destroying supply convoys. More or less fighting a conventional delaying action combined with a guerrilla war.

They will still lose but they might be able to make it so expensive for Russia that Russia ultimately backs down.

Exactly under what treaty are we supposed to go in and fight for them while being attacked with conventional weapons?

The one where we guaranteed their sovereignty for giving up their nuclear capabilities.

Nope.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ukraine._Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances


Yep
The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

Ok... now what? It says nothing about what will be done about it. Only thing it says is in the event of Ukraine being nuked is that we will run to the UN. That's it... and nothing about conventional attack.

And as above it's not a treaty. Ukraine was stupid to go along with this open ended crap back in the 90s.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:45:17 PM EDT
.
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Ok... now what? It says nothing about what will be done about it. Only thing it says is in the event of Ukraine being nuked is that we will run to the UN. That's it... and nothing about conventional attack.

And as above it's not a treaty. Ukraine was stupid to go along with this open ended crap back in the 90s.
View Quote

"in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act"

Read
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:49:26 PM EDT
Yeah, people keep going on and on about that agreement. Read it. Nothing was broken by us.
If they wanted Nato's military deterrence, they should've joined when they had the chance. They opted to play both sides of the fence, and its come to bite them in the ass. Tough shit. That's the way it works.

Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:50:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2014 3:51:49 PM EDT by Yor]
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Originally Posted By beardog30:

They will still lose but they might be able to make it so expensive for Russia that Russia ultimately backs down.
View Quote


Based on what?

Georgia? Just because It took them a week instead of 3 days to accomplish their goals in Georgia?

No, I don't think Russia's might was on display in Georgia.. everyone knows their logistical issues.... But to say they haven't learned anything would be pretty arrogant on our part.


It took us a month to finish up on Grenada.

The Ukraine would last a month...maybe. They would fold like a cheap tent. Go down quicker than a prom date on a 6 pack of wine coolers.

They watched someone invade part of their territory and their best defense was not firing back due to fear of reprisal. What do you think is going to happen if a full invasion takes place? Mass desertions. They haven't formed a strong since of identity or leadership since the revolution happened.










Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:52:42 PM EDT
There is not a whole lot they can do. They do not have the military might in terms of quantity or quality to counter the Russians, and relying on allies is going to be difficult. The last thing anyone wants is a shooting war, and between the two monolithic issues of nuclear powers getting involved in a shooting war, and how much Europe needs Russian gas there is not much that can be done.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:53:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:54:55 PM EDT

Not that it has anything to do with the OPs question, but that territory has a lot of history.

WWII and the German invasion

Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:56:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2014 3:59:18 PM EDT by beardog30]
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Originally Posted By Yor:


Based on what?

Georgia? Just because It took them a week instead of 3 days to accomplish their goals in Georgia?

No, I don't think Russia's might was on display in Georgia.. everyone knows their logistical issues.... But to say they haven't learned anything would be pretty arrogant on our part.


It took us a month to finish up on Grenada.

The Ukraine would last a month...maybe. They would fold like a cheap tent. Go down quicker than a prom date on a 6 pack of wine coolers.

They watched someone invade part of their territory and their best defense was not firing back due to fear of reprisal. What do you think is going to happen if a full invasion takes place? Mass desertions. They haven't formed a strong since of identity or leadership since the revolution happened.



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Originally Posted By Yor:
Originally Posted By beardog30:

They will still lose but they might be able to make it so expensive for Russia that Russia ultimately backs down.


Based on what?

Georgia? Just because It took them a week instead of 3 days to accomplish their goals in Georgia?

No, I don't think Russia's might was on display in Georgia.. everyone knows their logistical issues.... But to say they haven't learned anything would be pretty arrogant on our part.


It took us a month to finish up on Grenada.

The Ukraine would last a month...maybe. They would fold like a cheap tent. Go down quicker than a prom date on a 6 pack of wine coolers.

They watched someone invade part of their territory and their best defense was not firing back due to fear of reprisal. What do you think is going to happen if a full invasion takes place? Mass desertions. They haven't formed a strong since of identity or leadership since the revolution happened.




Chechnya one and two?
Forget about those?

The Ukraine has a military. Is it a good military? No. Does it have units on par with Russian units? Yes. Russia had massive issues logistically in every conflict they have been in since the fall of the Soviet Union. That was against goat herders. Now they have to support and sustain an action against a country that has military assets. I don't know how you come to your conclusion.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:57:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2014 3:58:41 PM EDT by klinc]
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Originally Posted By beardog30:
.

"in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act"

Read
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Originally Posted By beardog30:
.

Ok... now what? It says nothing about what will be done about it. Only thing it says is in the event of Ukraine being nuked is that we will run to the UN. That's it... and nothing about conventional attack.

And as above it's not a treaty. Ukraine was stupid to go along with this open ended crap back in the 90s.

"in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act"

Read
Yeah, Just a bunch of rules on how to work together and respect each other. I still see nothing saying the US will defend immediately if the Ukraine is attacked. Granted I haven't read it word for word. It's quite long...
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:00:48 PM EDT
tank traps, deployments and troop movements, among other things we probably arent privy to. good luck to them
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:02:19 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By beardog30:
.

"in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act"

Read
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Originally Posted By beardog30:
.

Ok... now what? It says nothing about what will be done about it. Only thing it says is in the event of Ukraine being nuked is that we will run to the UN. That's it... and nothing about conventional attack.

And as above it's not a treaty. Ukraine was stupid to go along with this open ended crap back in the 90s.

"in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act"

Read



That's a pretty long document and I'm not seeing what you think is in there. Can you quote the relevant passage?
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:02:37 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BillSouthCarolina:
I´m guessing they are preparing to draw any confrontation out... the Russians have poor logistical planning and Ukrianians will be supplied by the UK/Poland/Japan/US with Manpads and training if only the military confrontation isn't over in five days.
View Quote






Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:02:57 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By joshdb50:
They're hoping for change.
View Quote


They have that already.

Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:03:43 PM EDT
Ukraine cannot defend itself against Russia. Its military is too small, too decrepit and too poorly trained, and the country lacks any significant terrain features short of the Dnieper around which to build a defence. They had hoped that after tossing out the Russian puppet president, and aligning themselves with the EU, that the nations of Europe and the United States would rush to their defence. That obviously hasn't happened, and the majority of westerners are currently quite happy to watch the country get curbstomped by Russia.

Ukraine's best move right now is to do everything possible to turn themselves into a media sweetheart that the average joe in the west will sympathize with them, and actually give a fuck about their plight. Right now they should - no joke - be trying to get help from western celebrities, as that's basically all the average western schmuck cares about.

You can bet that if fucking Bieber or fucking Kanye or some other stupid celebrity jackass started talking about Ukraine on his twitter that support for military intervention would jump 5-10%.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:04:32 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By beardog30:

Chechnya one and two?
Forget about those?

The Ukraine has a military. Is it a good military? No. Does it have units on par with Russian units? Yes. Russia had massive issues logistically in every conflict they have been in since the fall of the Soviet Union. That was against goat herders. Now they have to support and sustain an action against a country that has military assets. I don't know how you come to your conclusion.
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Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By Yor:
Originally Posted By beardog30:

They will still lose but they might be able to make it so expensive for Russia that Russia ultimately backs down.


Based on what?

Georgia? Just because It took them a week instead of 3 days to accomplish their goals in Georgia?

No, I don't think Russia's might was on display in Georgia.. everyone knows their logistical issues.... But to say they haven't learned anything would be pretty arrogant on our part.


It took us a month to finish up on Grenada.

The Ukraine would last a month...maybe. They would fold like a cheap tent. Go down quicker than a prom date on a 6 pack of wine coolers.

They watched someone invade part of their territory and their best defense was not firing back due to fear of reprisal. What do you think is going to happen if a full invasion takes place? Mass desertions. They haven't formed a strong since of identity or leadership since the revolution happened.




Chechnya one and two?
Forget about those?

The Ukraine has a military. Is it a good military? No. Does it have units on par with Russian units? Yes. Russia had massive issues logistically in every conflict they have been in since the fall of the Soviet Union. That was against goat herders. Now they have to support and sustain an action against a country that has military assets. I don't know how you come to your conclusion.


Lets see.

- Fighting in a small, poor country primarily filled with goat hearders that praise the snackbar and getting stuck for many years.

Are we still talking about Chechnya?

Its not like Russia lost that one.

There is no way the Ukraine will have any capacity to fight the Russians. It might as well be Mexico vs the USA.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:09:42 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BlckM70:
Why do people keep calling it "The Ukraine"? It's not "The Germany" or "The France".
View Quote

The Bromx
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:09:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2014 4:12:53 PM EDT by beardog30]
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Originally Posted By Yor:


Lets see.

- Fighting in a small, poor country primarily filled with goat hearders that praise the snackbar and getting stuck for many years.

Are we still talking about Chechnya?

Its not like Russia lost that one.

There is no way the Ukraine will have any capacity to fight the Russians. It might as well be Mexico vs the USA.
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Originally Posted By Yor:
Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By Yor:
Originally Posted By beardog30:

They will still lose but they might be able to make it so expensive for Russia that Russia ultimately backs down.


Based on what?

Georgia? Just because It took them a week instead of 3 days to accomplish their goals in Georgia?

No, I don't think Russia's might was on display in Georgia.. everyone knows their logistical issues.... But to say they haven't learned anything would be pretty arrogant on our part.


It took us a month to finish up on Grenada.

The Ukraine would last a month...maybe. They would fold like a cheap tent. Go down quicker than a prom date on a 6 pack of wine coolers.

They watched someone invade part of their territory and their best defense was not firing back due to fear of reprisal. What do you think is going to happen if a full invasion takes place? Mass desertions. They haven't formed a strong since of identity or leadership since the revolution happened.




Chechnya one and two?
Forget about those?

The Ukraine has a military. Is it a good military? No. Does it have units on par with Russian units? Yes. Russia had massive issues logistically in every conflict they have been in since the fall of the Soviet Union. That was against goat herders. Now they have to support and sustain an action against a country that has military assets. I don't know how you come to your conclusion.


Lets see.

- Fighting in a small, poor country primarily filled with goat hearders that praise the snackbar and getting stuck for many years.

Are we still talking about Chechnya?

Its not like Russia lost that one.

There is no way the Ukraine will have any capacity to fight the Russians. It might as well be Mexico vs the USA.

Name a fight in Afghanistan where an entire US division got stopped butt cold?

That happened to the Russians in Chechnya.

They also had ROE's that are far more liberal than ours. They only won Chechnya by flattening it, more or less genocide by air and arty.

You base your assertion "There is no way the Ukraine will have any capacity to fight the Russians" on no empirical or historical data.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:10:35 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By RECONSIX:






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Originally Posted By RECONSIX:
Originally Posted By BillSouthCarolina:
I´m guessing they are preparing to draw any confrontation out... the Russians have poor logistical planning and Ukrianians will be supplied by the UK/Poland/Japan/US with Manpads and training if only the military confrontation isn't over in five days.








Ukraine has sought small arms and ammunition, but that has been refused. The Pentagon is sending food.


"The rations, the Meals Ready to Eat, they are on the way," Rear Adm. John Kirby, a Pentagon spokesman, said. "We expect them to arrive in Ukraine probably by the weekend is the best estimate."


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/03/28/ukraine-east-russia-invasion/7015857/
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:11:25 PM EDT
Withdraw strategically, which is about all they can do unless they get backed by someone with a formidable army.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:14:32 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BlckM70:
Why do people keep calling it "The Ukraine"? It's not "The Germany" or "The France".
View Quote

The Balkans, The Soviet Union, The Eastern Bloc
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:18:03 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By beardog30:

The one where we guaranteed their sovereignty for giving up their nuclear capabilities.
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Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By klinc:
Originally Posted By beardog30:
Stalling for time. Hopping the US and EU magically grow some balls and honor their treaties. What can they do? They lost a bunch of useful military equipment in the Crimea. The Ukraine does not lend itself to defense terrain wise.

Best they could hope for in a direct military conflict with Russia is make Russia pay heavily for every piece of ground it took, let Russia's shit logistical structure slow Russia's military down, and hope someone came to their aid. Feigns at massing useless armor in attempt to draw in Russian air assets and kill them with anti-aircraft. Drawing tanks into ambushes and then using shoot and scoot tactics. Showing up in the rear and destroying supply convoys. More or less fighting a conventional delaying action combined with a guerrilla war.

They will still lose but they might be able to make it so expensive for Russia that Russia ultimately backs down.

Exactly under what treaty are we supposed to go in and fight for them while being attacked with conventional weapons?

The one where we guaranteed their sovereignty for giving up their nuclear capabilities.


Not a treaty, never ratified by the Senate.

It was an "understanding", kinda like "the check is in the mail".
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:19:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Yor:


Lets see.

- Fighting in a small, poor country primarily filled with goat hearders that praise the snackbar and getting stuck for many years.

Are we still talking about Chechnya?

Its not like Russia lost that one.

There is no way the Ukraine will have any capacity to fight the Russians. It might as well be Mexico vs the USA.
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Originally Posted By Yor:
Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By Yor:
Originally Posted By beardog30:

They will still lose but they might be able to make it so expensive for Russia that Russia ultimately backs down.


Based on what?

Georgia? Just because It took them a week instead of 3 days to accomplish their goals in Georgia?

No, I don't think Russia's might was on display in Georgia.. everyone knows their logistical issues.... But to say they haven't learned anything would be pretty arrogant on our part.


It took us a month to finish up on Grenada.

The Ukraine would last a month...maybe. They would fold like a cheap tent. Go down quicker than a prom date on a 6 pack of wine coolers.

They watched someone invade part of their territory and their best defense was not firing back due to fear of reprisal. What do you think is going to happen if a full invasion takes place? Mass desertions. They haven't formed a strong since of identity or leadership since the revolution happened.




Chechnya one and two?
Forget about those?

The Ukraine has a military. Is it a good military? No. Does it have units on par with Russian units? Yes. Russia had massive issues logistically in every conflict they have been in since the fall of the Soviet Union. That was against goat herders. Now they have to support and sustain an action against a country that has military assets. I don't know how you come to your conclusion.


Lets see.

- Fighting in a small, poor country primarily filled with goat hearders that praise the snackbar and getting stuck for many years.

Are we still talking about Chechnya?

Its not like Russia lost that one.

There is no way the Ukraine will have any capacity to fight the Russians. It might as well be Mexico vs the USA.


sadly, this...

Ukraine is in no shape to take on Russia. Ukraine would get steamrolled going up against RU.

A large majority of Ukraine's navy has been compromised and they have virtually given up all power in the Black Sea.

A large percentage of the military in eastern Ukraine has defected to the other side. And I wouldn't be surprised to see its current ranks to be infested with pro RU sympathizers and spies.

You saw Ukraine trying to organize a national guard because they know they're fucked.

Ukraine's best bet against Russia is a NATO backed effort.

I would rather take my chances as an insurgent "freedom fighter" than a Ukrainian conscript.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:21:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2014 4:22:36 PM EDT by Yor]
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Originally Posted By beardog30:

Name a fight in Afghanistan where an entire US division got stopped butt cold?

That happened to the Russians in Chechnya.

They also had ROE's that are far more liberal than ours. They only won Chechnya by flattening it, more or less genocide by air and arty.

You base your assertion "There is no way the Ukraine will have any capacity to fight the Russians" on no empirical or historical data.
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Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By Yor:
Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By Yor:
Originally Posted By beardog30:

They will still lose but they might be able to make it so expensive for Russia that Russia ultimately backs down.


Based on what?

Georgia? Just because It took them a week instead of 3 days to accomplish their goals in Georgia?

No, I don't think Russia's might was on display in Georgia.. everyone knows their logistical issues.... But to say they haven't learned anything would be pretty arrogant on our part.


It took us a month to finish up on Grenada.

The Ukraine would last a month...maybe. They would fold like a cheap tent. Go down quicker than a prom date on a 6 pack of wine coolers.

They watched someone invade part of their territory and their best defense was not firing back due to fear of reprisal. What do you think is going to happen if a full invasion takes place? Mass desertions. They haven't formed a strong since of identity or leadership since the revolution happened.




Chechnya one and two?
Forget about those?

The Ukraine has a military. Is it a good military? No. Does it have units on par with Russian units? Yes. Russia had massive issues logistically in every conflict they have been in since the fall of the Soviet Union. That was against goat herders. Now they have to support and sustain an action against a country that has military assets. I don't know how you come to your conclusion.


Lets see.

- Fighting in a small, poor country primarily filled with goat hearders that praise the snackbar and getting stuck for many years.

Are we still talking about Chechnya?

Its not like Russia lost that one.

There is no way the Ukraine will have any capacity to fight the Russians. It might as well be Mexico vs the USA.

Name a fight in Afghanistan where an entire US division got stopped butt cold?

That happened to the Russians in Chechnya.

They also had ROE's that are far more liberal than ours. They only won Chechnya by flattening it, more or less genocide by air and arty.

You base your assertion "There is no way the Ukraine will have any capacity to fight the Russians" on no empirical or historical data.


The USA never lost a battle in Vietnam either. Do we doubt what is going to happen to AFG once we are withdrawn? Fighting Muslims who want their virgins changes conventional wisdom on military conflict.

How many invasions have been repelled by a newly formed government founded in a country with no strong Nationalistic identity. Oh, and its full of plains and no real defensible terrain.


I don't see a whole lot of fight in the Ukraine military.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:23:44 PM EDT
What are they doing? Bending over and applying lube. Let's face it, Vlad's gonna ride them like a frontovik on a Berlin hausfrau...
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:24:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:

The Balkans, The Soviet Union, The Eastern Bloc
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Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:
Originally Posted By BlckM70:
Why do people keep calling it "The Ukraine"? It's not "The Germany" or "The France".

The Balkans, The Soviet Union, The Eastern Bloc


Errm...those are all collections of countries, hence the "the." Similarly, the US is a collection of states. Ukraine is a single country, so it shouldn't have it.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:25:12 PM EDT
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The USA never lost a battle in Vietnam either. Do we doubt what is going to happen to AFG once we are withdrawn? Fighting Muslims who want their virgins changes conventional wisdom on military conflict.

How many invasions have been repelled by a newly formed government founded in a country with no strong Nationalistic identity. Oh, and its full of plains and no real defensible terrain.


I don't see a whole lot of fight in the Ukraine military.
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Reading is fundamental, re-read my original post.

You base "I don't see a whole lot of fight in the Ukraine military" on what?
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:26:09 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By grognard1:
What are they doing? Bending over and applying lube. Let's face it, Vlad's gonna ride them like a frontovik on a Berlin hausfrau...
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The only thing that would stop Russia is something not found in the Ukraine. The Ukraine military won't do it. It will be NATO or the USA.

Which means they are boned.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:27:23 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By beardog30:

Reading is fundamental, re-read my original post.

You base "I don't see a whole lot of fight in the Ukraine military" on what?
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Originally Posted By beardog30:


The USA never lost a battle in Vietnam either. Do we doubt what is going to happen to AFG once we are withdrawn? Fighting Muslims who want their virgins changes conventional wisdom on military conflict.

How many invasions have been repelled by a newly formed government founded in a country with no strong Nationalistic identity. Oh, and its full of plains and no real defensible terrain.


I don't see a whole lot of fight in the Ukraine military.

Reading is fundamental, re-read my original post.

You base "I don't see a whole lot of fight in the Ukraine military" on what?


On the fact they let 30k people in their territory and disarm/arrest their military.


Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:31:47 PM EDT
The coup leaders had no plan to secure the country, they only wanted to replace one thief with another group of thieves.

Had they truly wanted a peaceful transition and solid chance for a representative government through elections, they would have made a deal with the EU to provide a strong military presence for the health and safety of the nation until a legal government could be elected. IOW, they would have asked to be occupied by a friendly military force rather than hope (there's that word again) Russia would go along with their plans, some of which were contrary to Russia's national interests.

Instead some street thugs took over a country and do not know what to do with it now. They are fooked.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:39:12 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AbleArcher:
Originally Posted By RECONSIX:
Originally Posted By BillSouthCarolina:
I´m guessing they are preparing to draw any confrontation out... the Russians have poor logistical planning and Ukrianians will be supplied by the UK/Poland/Japan/US with Manpads and training if only the military confrontation isn't over in five days.








Ukraine has sought small arms and ammunition, but that has been refused. The Pentagon is sending food.


"The rations, the Meals Ready to Eat, they are on the way," Rear Adm. John Kirby, a Pentagon spokesman, said. "We expect them to arrive in Ukraine probably by the weekend is the best estimate."


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/03/28/ukraine-east-russia-invasion/7015857/


We can give billions to Pakistan, but can't give M4's and ammo (and explosives, etc) to Ukraine when they need it most. Bizarro world.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:51:21 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By sweptvolume:

We can give billions to Pakistan, but can't give M4's and ammo (and explosives, etc) to Ukraine when they need it most. Bizarro world.
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Not only that, but Kerry and 0bama oversaw (witnessed is probably a better word) the destruction of small arms and ammunition in Ukraine on one of their fact finding junkets when they were both senators. Ironic, no?
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:54:52 PM EDT
Ukraine seems committed to letting Russia do whatever it wants. They haven't resisted one bit.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:58:02 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AbleArcher:
Originally Posted By RECONSIX:
Originally Posted By BillSouthCarolina:
I´m guessing they are preparing to draw any confrontation out... the Russians have poor logistical planning and Ukrianians will be supplied by the UK/Poland/Japan/US with Manpads and training if only the military confrontation isn't over in five days.








Ukraine has sought small arms and ammunition, but that has been refused. The Pentagon is sending food.


"The rations, the Meals Ready to Eat, they are on the way," Rear Adm. John Kirby, a Pentagon spokesman, said. "We expect them to arrive in Ukraine probably by the weekend is the best estimate."


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/03/28/ukraine-east-russia-invasion/7015857/


This behaviour is to be expected from Obama, he does not want to offend Vlad. Send something meaningful, not troops, but equipment and supplies. Help them to at least go down swinging.
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