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Posted: 12/4/2007 1:14:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 1:15:14 PM EDT by The_Macallan]
A faculty in our area is in his 4th year which is the do-or-die year for tenure. He's a nice guy, is absolutely brilliant in his field, but he just can't teach.

He's had recurring problems since he's been here (high attrition rates, lack of classroom management, aloof attitude regarding student performance). He's been evaluated by me and our Dean each semester and repeatedly has been given in writing recommendations for mentoring and addressing specific areas for improvement which have been very minimally addressed by him. Plus he's just plain weird - can't have a "normal" conversation with him EVER. It's like talking to someone who's trying hard to be someone he's not. And students pick up on it and avoid his classes like the plague.

So..... after meeting with our Dean we're in agreement - he's going to be "encouraged" to begin seeking employment someplace else.

But he's a nice guy, not a jerk or offensive. Not the kind of person you feel good about letting go. But you gotta do it.

Sigh.

Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:15:34 PM EDT
I've always held the view you don't really fire anyone, they fire themselves.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:16:14 PM EDT
first person I ever had to fire cried and begged me not to fire him

I have never forgotten the shitty feeling it left me with, although it was unavoidable



sorry
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:22:51 PM EDT
If he's a teacher and cannot teach, he needs to go.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:25:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
If he's a teacher and cannot teach, he needs to go.


omg what is he going to do then??

they say.. if you cannot do then teach.. if he cant teach well he's screwed!
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:25:37 PM EDT
Had to fire one two weeks ago.

These things happen.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:27:51 PM EDT
Be assured that you are doing the right thing....the rest of the faculty will appreciate you making a tough decision, and you will gain their respect. Nobody likes to work for a supervisor that does not have the guts to make a tough call and remove a non-performer....
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:29:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:31:21 PM EDT
It is best to just have accounting stop issuing a check. These things will work themselves out.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:32:10 PM EDT
I hate it too.
I recently had to fire a real hottie. She was a good worker when she was here, but because of family issues, she wasn't dependable.

I told her that I would consider hiring her back after a couple of years. She was crying, & then she had to stand in the rain waiting for her ride because my boss wanted her out of the building
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:32:57 PM EDT
agreed. professionally, the hardest thing i ever had to do was to fire a longtime friend. i gave her a 2 week notice, provided that she performed acceptably during that time, which she did.

we didn't talk for over a year afterwards, but later she told me that it was the very best thing i could have done for her.

it's tough to do, but i find that letting someone go can be a very positive thing for them if you can deliver the message properly. you might go to a coach and ask him what he says he cuts a talented player who isn't quite ready yet--they usually have a very good handle on this.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:34:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
omg what is he going to do then??

they say.. if you cannot do then teach.. if he cant teach well he's screwed!


You teach teachers.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:36:38 PM EDT
I fired a guy... he demanded that his kids come in from the parking lot. I said no way. So he left dragged them back in so they could ask "why are you firing my Daddy"? Guy was screaming that he was gonna loose his house, and they would all be on the street...

Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:38:37 PM EDT
We fired a guy at my job 2 weeks ago, the guy just said Fuck It and lit up a smoke in the middle of the plant and walked out. It was hard to keep a straight face til he got out of sight. Reminded me of the scene in the movie Waiting when the guy quits at the party.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:39:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Grug:
I fired a guy... he demanded that his kids come in from the parking lot. I said no way. So he left dragged them back in so they could ask "why are you firing my Daddy"? Guy was screaming that he was gonna loose his house, and they would all be on the street...


Let me guess, AL Gore ?
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:39:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:40:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
If he's a teacher and cannot teach, he needs to go.


omg what is he going to do then??

they say.. if you cannot do then teach.. if he cant teach well he's screwed!


Teach gym?

Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:41:40 PM EDT
sure beats my turn in your keys and dont come back story
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:41:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Grug:
I fired a guy... he demanded that his kids come in from the parking lot. I said no way. So he left dragged them back in so they could ask "why are you firing my Daddy"? Guy was screaming that he was gonna loose his house, and they would all be on the street...

What a prick.

I hope you told his kids that you were firing their daddy because he didn't love them enough to do his job correctly in order to keep a roof over their heads.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:45:00 PM EDT
Most people I get to shitcan have either toed the line on fraud, recklessly spent shareholder money, or committed other acts of neglecting their fiduciary responsibility which allow me to vent some righteous anger. Fuck 'em. Retributive justice is a bitch.

It does suck when someone really is trying but just can't cut the mustard though.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:50:59 PM EDT
Yes, it sucks. I had to do it with one employee who was lackluster in output. His work quality was above average, only he took a lot longer than the others.

Management wanted 2 employees fired. #1 was out of the question as he knew twice as much as me about the company, being there for over 20 years. But he was just a designer, not an engineer.

Al was great, always first to get the job done but his error rate was a bit high. He was improving.

K. was perfect, not fast but faster than J who was my first choice.

And the second one to get the axe? The one I had hired under pressure from HR to give the gender equity gods a woodie.

A month later, the workload increased to the point I had to hire one back. I had all my hourly employees at 20 hours overtime. And I had been working 90 hour weeks
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:52:19 PM EDT
My company just fired a project manager for being a bitch.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 1:54:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cpt_Kirks:

Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
If he's a teacher and cannot teach, he needs to go.


omg what is he going to do then??

they say.. if you cannot do then teach.. if he cant teach well he's screwed!


Teach gym?



I always heard the axiom as this:


Those who cant do, teach. Those who cant teach, administrate.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 2:02:11 PM EDT
Sorry. Misread the title and thought it said "Having to fire at someone is not fun"

Link Posted: 12/4/2007 2:02:11 PM EDT
Sorry. Misread the title and thought it said "Having to fire at someone is not fun"

Link Posted: 12/4/2007 2:07:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
A faculty in our area is in his 4th year which is the do-or-die year for tenure. He's a nice guy, is absolutely brilliant in his field, but he just can't teach.
So this guy has been screwing up for four years?

Reminds me of the company I used to work for; it took WAY too long to fire someone and that someone had to fuck up in a gigantic way to finally be gotten rid of. Then again, I never claimed the management of being good.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 2:07:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 2:07:34 PM EDT by RetroRevolver77]
I always heard it's best to wait five years before attacking someone who fired you.

Sorry, had to do that.

We had a guy fired at my last job that honestly did scare most of the sheeple- including me!



Link Posted: 12/4/2007 2:07:24 PM EDT
Just draw down on him, he'll get the subtle message to leave.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 2:08:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hellhound:
Just draw down on him, he'll get the subtle message to leave.


Or wait till your getting your keys out of your pocket in a dark parking lot.

Link Posted: 12/4/2007 2:29:58 PM EDT
Last person I had to fire was on day 89 of her 90 trial review period.

I had done all of the paperwork, weekly reviews, counciling, mentoring, training, coaching, everything to get her to get her shit together.

I didn't hire her.

When I told the manager that she needed to go he asked me one question: "What took you so long to do it?"

When I fired her she was shocked.
Then she started crying.

Her final words were "So what am I supposed to do now?" followed by "Can I keep the company pen and knife?" and finally "would you call me a cab".

Link Posted: 12/4/2007 2:36:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
If he's a teacher and cannot teach, he needs to go.


omg what is he going to do then??

they say.. if you cannot do then teach.. if he cant teach well he's screwed!


he has three choices:
1. become a competent teacher
2. become competent at something else
3. fucking starve to death

Link Posted: 12/4/2007 2:43:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By joker581:

Originally Posted By Grug:
I fired a guy... he demanded that his kids come in from the parking lot. I said no way. So he left dragged them back in so they could ask "why are you firing my Daddy"? Guy was screaming that he was gonna loose his house, and they would all be on the street...

What a prick.

I hope you told his kids that you were firing their daddy because he didn't love them enough to do his job correctly in order to keep a roof over their heads.


Nah, I'd have asked the kids if they knew for sure he WAS their real daddy.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 2:43:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 2:45:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By joker581:

Originally Posted By Grug:
I fired a guy... he demanded that his kids come in from the parking lot. I said no way. So he left dragged them back in so they could ask "why are you firing my Daddy"? Guy was screaming that he was gonna loose his house, and they would all be on the street...

What a prick.

I hope you told his kids that you were firing their daddy because he didn't love them enough to do his job correctly in order to keep a roof over their heads.



Didnt bother saying anything..whats the point, I had fired him so that was basically it. It was christmas time and the kids were crying and shit. You gotta do what you gotta do though...
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 2:54:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Grug:
I fired a guy... he demanded that his kids come in from the parking lot. I said no way. So he left dragged them back in so they could ask "why are you firing my Daddy"? Guy was screaming that he was gonna loose his house, and they would all be on the street...



Dear Lord, he failed as a father. No shame.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:06:04 PM EDT
I was under orders to lay off one of three people. They were all doing their job with no complaints from me or anyone else. The only reason was a company slowdown. Due to their functions being critical in tough times, two were not viable 'choices'. So Margie was the only one.

What made it worse was that Margie's mother had died about two weeks earlier, and she'd just come back to work a few days earlier. She understood how badly I felt about having to lay her off, but that didn't make me feel much better. Fortunately, she got another job within a month or so, from a guy I knew. The other good thing was that I'd managed to get the department's compensation in line with the market the year before, so she had a better platform to launch from.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:14:48 PM EDT
I was responcible for my ex-manager quitting, does that count?


FWIW i went up and brutally bitched him out and walked out of the building (as in i Quit) but he was supposedly crying becuase he relaised he was in his late 60's, and couldn't manage a grocery store department
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:14:53 PM EDT
I fire a lot of people with my boss. They're all stealing from the company, though. It doesn't get easier with time but I constantly remind myself that it was THEIR choice to steal and be poor performers, not ours.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:23:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 3:24:52 PM EDT by BallisticTip]
Keep the personal feelings out of it, make it a business decision much easer to handle. Take care of the issue and move on.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:34:57 PM EDT
I thought DK_Prof would have started this post. Firing people is no fun, but necessary if the organization is to continue its mission successfully.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:34:59 PM EDT
Ask him if he likes knock knock jokes

then say

"knock knock"

he will say "whos there"

you will reply

"your fuckin fired!"
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:35:22 PM EDT

Coincidentally, the senior faculty in my area are meeting tomorrow on a tenure case, where everyone LIKES the guy, and he's a great teacher, and has done a lot of service for the university (including organizing conferences, etc.) - but his published research - while there's a lot of it - just isn't of sufficient quality. It's going to be a tough meeting, because some people are going to want to give him tenure because they like the guy.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:39:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Coincidentally, the senior faculty in my area are meeting tomorrow on a tenure case, where everyone LIKES the guy, and he's a great teacher, and has done a lot of service for the university (including organizing conferences, etc.) - but his published research - while there's a lot of it - just isn't of sufficient quality. It's going to be a tough meeting, because some people are going to want to give him tenure because they like the guy.


errr isnt the job of university to teach
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:39:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SS109:
she had to stand in the rain waiting for her ride because my boss wanted her out of the building


that's a very piece of shit thing to do, a lowly piece of shit at that. I understand it was your boss, not you
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:41:20 PM EDT
I recommend you practice by watching this fine example over and over. (not a Rick Roll)
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:43:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 3:44:11 PM EDT by ReallyLongAction]
I say do it all Lundburgh like. Suspenders, big ass cup of steaming fucking cofee, and all.


You've gotta do it, may as well have a bit of fun with it.


Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:44:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 3:46:01 PM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Coincidentally, the senior faculty in my area are meeting tomorrow on a tenure case, where everyone LIKES the guy, and he's a great teacher, and has done a lot of service for the university (including organizing conferences, etc.) - but his published research - while there's a lot of it - just isn't of sufficient quality. It's going to be a tough meeting, because some people are going to want to give him tenure because they like the guy.


errr isnt the job of university to teach


Not necessarily.

My job is to conduct and publish research. Teaching is a relatively minor part of my job. For the past nine years, I've spent about 20-30 days per year in the classroom. The rest is research.

In my new job I'm teaching a little more, but I'm still only spending one day a week in the classroom.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:46:14 PM EDT
It really sucks to fire someone.

It also really sucks to be stuck with a teacher who really sucks.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 3:59:37 PM EDT
Firing someone for cause is not that difficult, it is uncomfortable. Terminating an employee and friend because the asinine mis-management of the company by the people above you means that you can't continue to pay him, really sucks. Especially when he tells you that he expected it and he knows that you did all that you could to keep things going and he laughed because the guy that ordered the termination woouldn't do it himself.


96Ag
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 4:02:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:
errr isnt the job of university to teach


Professors are there to profess their knowledge, not teach.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 4:07:57 PM EDT
It sucks, but if the guy isn't performing up to required standards, then he did himself in.
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