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Posted: 12/4/2007 4:30:20 AM EDT
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071204/ap_on_go_ot/math_science_scores

US students do worse in science and math By NANCY ZUCKERBROD, AP Education Writer
Tue Dec 4, 4:10 AM ET



WASHINGTON - U.S. students are lagging behind their peers in other countries in science and math, test results out Tuesday show.

The test, the Program for International Student Assessment, was given to 15-year-olds in 30 industrialized countries last year. It focused on science but also included a math portion.

The 30 countries, including the United States, make up the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which runs the international test.

The average scores for U.S. students were lower than the average scores for the group as a whole.

U.S. students also had an average science score that was lower than the average score in 16 other OECD countries. In math, U.S. students did even worse — posting an average score that was lower than the average in 23 of the other leading industrialized countries.

The test also was administered to students in about two dozen countries or jurisdictions that are not part of the industrialized group.

When compared with the broader group, the U.S. students fell in the middle of the pack in science and did somewhat worse in math.

There was no change in U.S. math scores since 2003, the last time the test was given. The science scores aren't comparable between 2003 to 2006, because the tests aren't the same.

U.S. girls and boys did about the same on the science and math portions of the test.

Finland's 15-year-olds did the best on the science test, followed by students in Hong Kong and Canada. Students in Finland, Taiwan, South Korea and Hong Kong were the top performers in math.

No surprise to me considering what I've seen working in a public city school. With the entitlement attitude, total disrespect for any kind of authority, the "I don't need school because I won't need a job because I get welfare" mentality, along with the street thug/gangsta/party/pop-tart culture, I'm surprised we do as well as we do.

I am curious to see though what happens to those numbers if you don't count the shitty public schools in our big cities/inner-cities and only count the suburban and rural school districts. I remember in the last few years, in Buffalo, NY the school district was bragging about a 10% passing rate in math in one of the schools because it was an improvement over the previous year.

-K
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 4:34:20 AM EDT
This is been said every year since I was in kindergarden.

Yet we are still the only people with Stealth aircraft, ABMs, combat lasers, a working space program...
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 4:34:30 AM EDT
I wonder when exactly US students started falling behind.

It seems to me that they've ALWAYS been behind.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 4:34:46 AM EDT
Yes, but they "feel" they are superior in math and science to all other countries. THAT'S what's important.

Link Posted: 12/4/2007 4:36:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:

Yet we are still the only people with Stealth aircraft, ABMs, combat lasers, a working space program...


lol, what?
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 4:37:07 AM EDT
we have some of the very dumbest, but we also have some of the smartest. They cancel each other out so we end up with a mediocre score compared with the rest of the first world.

I'd also like to see this same type of survey done at the university level for math/science/engineering students only.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 4:39:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
I'd also like to see this same type of survey done at the university level for math/science/engineering students only.


Nations are composed of millions of people. Your society will not bend or break based on the performance of the elite alone.

When the majority of your citizenry cannot hack it, you have a problem.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 4:47:32 AM EDT
No child left behind...
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 4:49:39 AM EDT
Warning: Anecdotal opinion.

I've been a product of the public education system my entire life. In K-12, I'd say that this report is spot on.

When I have kids, I'm definitely not putting them through the same shit I went through. Half of my friends from high school could barely read/write above middle-school levels. Needless to say, I don't see much of them anymore.

Lots of "rebels" and shit that thought they were too good to learn because they were American and wanted to be a gangsta'. But there was a cadre of kids that had good parents, and it showed; they were consistently the top students in my entire high school.

As for University, in California (UC) and what I've seen from Korean engineers, I'd say we're still #1 but I don't know for how long.

In Korean Universities, it's hard to get in but easy to finish. Opposite from my experience, relatively easier to get in, and harder to finish. As for the finished product (University Grad), I'd say the if an American makes it to an engineering/math/science University program, they're probably going to be a step above some foreigner of equivalent title.

But I'm also got a higher degree, and in grad school for engineering, I'd say that 80% are Indian and Chinese combined. I know with H1-B's there's less incentive for Americans to get engineering degrees, but even then, there's less Americans interested in "nerd" shit than before. It's our culture or something, I can't think too hard about it because I've been drinking just now, but in any case, my $0.02.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 4:55:33 AM EDT

I'd say that 80% are Indian and Chinese combined. I know with H1-B's there's less incentive for Americans to get engineering degrees, but even then, there's less Americans interested in "nerd" shit than before. It's our culture or something...




Agreed. But what about our culture?

My answer: Our culture of give-it-to-me-now, I want that NEW Mustang and a big 4-BR house next to the Joneses so I can be cool - the culture of debt and materialism.



CMOS
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 4:58:56 AM EDT
Well, when our universities have to go begging for new students, let me know.

As long as you still have to be in a lottery to get a dorm room this is irrelevant.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:00:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 5:03:15 AM EDT by firmwear]

Originally Posted By CMOS:

I'd say that 80% are Indian and Chinese combined. I know with H1-B's there's less incentive for Americans to get engineering degrees, but even then, there's less Americans interested in "nerd" shit than before. It's our culture or something...




Agreed. But what about our culture?

My answer: Our culture of give-it-to-me-now, I want that NEW Mustang and a big 4-BR house next to the Joneses so I can be cool - the culture of debt and materialism.



CMOS


"...I can't think too hard about it because I've been drinking just now, but in any case, my $0.02."

You're making me look bad, stop it.

ETA: Just now a pet-peeve came across my mind. It doesn't take a genius to see that the fuckers that make it to the top are not engineers. CEO's are almost always marketing-cocksuckers or some other kind of no-brain motherfucker. Only pride makes a guy take a harder job for less money!!! (or maybe stupidity...huh)
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:02:24 AM EDT
Do they see successful engineers, scientists or mathematicians on TV? No.

They see mindless Beautiful People making big money on TV.

Why get into all that science stuff? That's just for loser nerds.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:04:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By webtaz99:
Do they see successful engineers, scientists or mathematicians on TV? No.

They see mindless Beautiful People making big money on TV.

Why get into all that science stuff? That's just for loser nerds.


Like Bill Gates?

Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:15:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:17:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MagicPussyCat:
I wonder when exactly US students started falling behind.

It seems to me that they've ALWAYS been behind.



The last I heard, our 4th graders were at or near the top, our 8th graders were middle of the road, and our 12th graders were at or near the bottom.

-K
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:18:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:

Originally Posted By webtaz99:
Do they see successful engineers, scientists or mathematicians on TV? No.

They see mindless Beautiful People making big money on TV.

Why get into all that science stuff? That's just for loser nerds.


Like Bill Gates?


Bill is not an engineer, scientist or mathematician.

He is a nerd, though.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:18:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aim4MyHead:
the fact that 3rd world non-english speaking children are forced upon our education systems holding down the rest of the class doesn't help i'm sure


J


They don't put non-english-speaking students in an english-speaking classroom.

Why would they? What kind of sense would that make?
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:19:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
This is been said every year since I was in kindergarden.

Yet we are still the only people with Stealth aircraft, ABMs, combat lasers, a working space program...


yep

I started school in '74 and have heard this every single year since then

I think it was me that fucked up the system
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:20:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Like Bill Gates?

You don't know much about him do you...
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:21:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MagicPussyCat:

Originally Posted By Aim4MyHead:
the fact that 3rd world non-english speaking children are forced upon our education systems holding down the rest of the class doesn't help i'm sure


J


They don't put non-english-speaking students in an english-speaking classroom.

Why would they? What kind of sense would that make?


Uh, yes they do, all the time. Its called English immersion. Its the law in most south western states. Part of the English only inititives.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:23:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aim4MyHead:
the fact that 3rd world non-english speaking children are forced upon our education systems holding down the rest of the class doesn't help i'm sure


J


Ya think?
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:24:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mnd:

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Like Bill Gates?

You don't know much about him do you...


I don't need to know the man's boxer size to know he's nerded his way to wealth.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:25:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:

Originally Posted By MagicPussyCat:

Originally Posted By Aim4MyHead:
the fact that 3rd world non-english speaking children are forced upon our education systems holding down the rest of the class doesn't help i'm sure


J


They don't put non-english-speaking students in an english-speaking classroom.

Why would they? What kind of sense would that make?


Uh, yes they do, all the time. Its called English immersion. Its the law in most south western states. Part of the English only inititives.


Language-immersion programs are meant to assist in teaching a language to someone.

First it's a problem that they don't speak english, and now it's a problem that there are measures to help them speak english.

How hilariously racist of you.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:26:30 AM EDT
Then why does my German MIL say that my son in 1st grade is doing the same math homework as his cousin over there does in 3rd grade?
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:26:34 AM EDT
It also helps when people counting are excluding private and charter schools from the equation.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:30:52 AM EDT
God is more important then science
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:31:22 AM EDT
Our suburban schools have some pretty bright kids in them. My son is one of them and he has lots of friends who are well advanced in math and science. The inner-city schools probably tend to cancel out the suburban success stories though. According to my wife who works in a big R&D lab environment, the engineers are all coming from China now. Bright, well trained and will work for peanuts. Not sure where all of this leads....

dvo
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:31:44 AM EDT
Of course they're behind in math and science.

They are being taught senseless crap like "global warming", how to use online banking and
"credit-yourselves" into oblivion, instead of balancing a check book and saving money.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:34:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MagicPussyCat:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:

Originally Posted By MagicPussyCat:

Originally Posted By Aim4MyHead:
the fact that 3rd world non-english speaking children are forced upon our education systems holding down the rest of the class doesn't help i'm sure


J


They don't put non-english-speaking students in an english-speaking classroom.

Why would they? What kind of sense would that make?


Uh, yes they do, all the time. Its called English immersion. Its the law in most south western states. Part of the English only inititives.


Language-immersion programs are meant to assist in teaching a language to someone.

First it's a problem that they don't speak english, and now it's a problem that there are measures to help them speak english.

How hilariously racist of you.




There's nothing racist about it. Having kids speaking sometimes dozens of languages or dialects is causing some real problems for our schools - and students - and speaking several different (or just 2) languages in the same classroom is a clusterfuck.
And yes, it does happen.


-K
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:36:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dvo:
Our suburban schools have some pretty bright kids in them. My son is one of them and he has lots of friends who are well advanced in math and science. The inner-city schools probably tend to cancel out the suburban success stories though. According to my wife who works in a big R&D lab environment, the engineers are all coming from China now. Bright, well trained and will work for peanuts. Not sure where all of this leads....

dvo


China has a far bigger gap between the "haves" favored by the party- among them their 300 million odd English speekers- and their 800 million odd rural population.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:37:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MagicPussyCat:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:

Originally Posted By MagicPussyCat:

Originally Posted By Aim4MyHead:
the fact that 3rd world non-english speaking children are forced upon our education systems holding down the rest of the class doesn't help i'm sure


J


They don't put non-english-speaking students in an english-speaking classroom.

Why would they? What kind of sense would that make?


Uh, yes they do, all the time. Its called English immersion. Its the law in most south western states. Part of the English only inititives.


Language-immersion programs are meant to assist in teaching a language to someone.

First it's a problem that they don't speak english, and now it's a problem that there are measures to help them speak english.

How hilariously racist of you.



race card

race card

all else is trumped
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:38:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:41:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 5:42:28 AM EDT by firmwear]

Originally Posted By ANGST:
God is more important then science


[Grammar Nazi]God is more important than science[/Grammar Nazi]


Sorry dude, just had to do it... I mean, what's more important that grammar?
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:43:01 AM EDT
China knew that it had to modernize or collapse like the Soviet Union did. Their effort produced the liberalized "Special Economic Zones" where a western like culture is practiced little different from Japan or Taiwan. Because it makes money and produces things, not for the good of the people. They permit what part of the popultion will contribute to come in live in that area, the rest of Chinas 1.1 billion people live in a Stalinist society, and have basically been abandoned by the central authority who uses them only for things like staffing the military.

A similar division is going to happen here, because the educated are going to see to it that their children are educated. The uneducated will continue to bitch about how unfair it is and produce unedcuated children.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:43:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:47:48 AM EDT
incompetent and unemployable college grads who can't afford their student loan repayments will be the next sub-prime crisis.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:53:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MagicPussyCat:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:

Originally Posted By MagicPussyCat:

Originally Posted By Aim4MyHead:
the fact that 3rd world non-english speaking children are forced upon our education systems holding down the rest of the class doesn't help i'm sure


J


They don't put non-english-speaking students in an english-speaking classroom.

Why would they? What kind of sense would that make?


Uh, yes they do, all the time. Its called English immersion. Its the law in most south western states. Part of the English only inititives.


Language-immersion programs are meant to assist in teaching a language to someone.

First it's a problem that they don't speak english, and now it's a problem that there are measures to help them speak english.

How hilariously racist of you.


Since when are non-english speakers a race?

And when my field service guys are sent to Germany, France, or any other country the children that often go with them are sent to local schools and taught in the countries language.
They might get some after school help in the language, but that is about the only concession made.
In some cases the ‘after school’ time is not even voluntary.

We cater to various groups using various failed programs that only serve to hold the students back by allowing them to delay their entry into our English speaking society.

Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:58:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 6:00:09 AM EDT by trwoprod]

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:

Originally Posted By webtaz99:
Do they see successful engineers, scientists or mathematicians on TV? No.

They see mindless Beautiful People making big money on TV.

Why get into all that science stuff? That's just for loser nerds.


Like Bill Gates?



Hmmm ... if I could have my mother set me up with a division head at IBM, I guess I would do pretty well too!

Wait -- actually she did, and that's why I was swapping tapes and running IPLs at 16! And it did actually give me a hell of a leg up in my carreer!

Don't underestimate what a connected mother can do. That basically made Bill Gates' carreer by getting MSDOS in. And I had the skills of someone 35 years old at 21 because my mother had the hook-up!

But Gates wasn't a science nerd, just antisocial. His story is interesting for all the wrong reasons. Very nice family too, which is odd, considering how personally unpleasant he is.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:58:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
Shiznip...

The uneducated will continue to bitch about how unfair it is and produce unedcuated children.


And then the educated will pay the uneducated's welfare! SCORRRRRRREEEE!
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:58:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By firmwear:

Originally Posted By ANGST:
God is more important then science


[Grammar Nazi]God is more important than science[/Grammar Nazi]


Sorry dude, just had to do it... I mean, what's more important that grammar?


Irony!
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 5:59:08 AM EDT
So they are a little behind in math and science. They lead the world in Gay/Lesbian issues, Global Warming, Cultural understanding, and Diversity.

The NEA is doing the best it can, with the limited funding the schools get.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 6:05:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 6:21:14 AM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
The solution is actually to get rid of the public school and go to a internet based education system. It removes the "social" problems that hobble education. Children proceed at their pace, as fast as they can, no waiting for other students, no bulling, no time wasted in socializing and comparing who has the best cell phone. If the best tutor in a subject is in Germany or China, you can get to them. Parents are the sole source of the childs accultureation.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 6:12:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tolip:
No childAll Children left behind equally...


Link Posted: 12/4/2007 6:13:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RarestRX:

Originally Posted By firmwear:

Originally Posted By ANGST:
God is more important then science


[Grammar Nazi]God is more important than science[/Grammar Nazi]


Sorry dude, just had to do it... I mean, what's more important that grammar?


Irony!


I won't try to hide it... yes, I'm stupid
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 6:14:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By trwoprod:

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:

Originally Posted By webtaz99:
Do they see successful engineers, scientists or mathematicians on TV? No.

They see mindless Beautiful People making big money on TV.

Why get into all that science stuff? That's just for loser nerds.


Like Bill Gates?



Hmmm ... if I could have my mother set me up with a division head at IBM, I guess I would do pretty well too!

Wait -- actually she did, and that's why I was swapping tapes and running IPLs at 16! And it did actually give me a hell of a leg up in my carreer!

Don't underestimate what a connected mother can do. That basically made Bill Gates' carreer by getting MSDOS in. And I had the skills of someone 35 years old at 21 because my mother had the hook-up!

But Gates wasn't a science nerd, just antisocial. His story is interesting for all the wrong reasons. Very nice family too, which is odd, considering how personally unpleasant he is.


Motivation as a result of being an anti-social asshole is still motivation, and if used appropriately is still a great thing.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 7:06:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RealFastV6:

Originally Posted By trwoprod:

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:

Originally Posted By webtaz99:
Do they see successful engineers, scientists or mathematicians on TV? No.

They see mindless Beautiful People making big money on TV.

Why get into all that science stuff? That's just for loser nerds.


Like Bill Gates?



Hmmm ... if I could have my mother set me up with a division head at IBM, I guess I would do pretty well too!

Wait -- actually she did, and that's why I was swapping tapes and running IPLs at 16! And it did actually give me a hell of a leg up in my carreer!

Don't underestimate what a connected mother can do. That basically made Bill Gates' carreer by getting MSDOS in. And I had the skills of someone 35 years old at 21 because my mother had the hook-up!

But Gates wasn't a science nerd, just antisocial. His story is interesting for all the wrong reasons. Very nice family too, which is odd, considering how personally unpleasant he is.


Motivation as a result of being an anti-social asshole is still motivation, and if used appropriately is still a great thing.


Sure, but call a spade a spade -- Bill Gates as an "evil nerd" has never been even remotely close to the truth. Gates in a rather nasty and very smart little man who took an opportunity and ran with it. His strong point is marketing, not anything technical.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 7:11:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By trwoprod:


Sure, but call a spade a spade -- Bill Gates as an "evil nerd" has never been even remotely close to the truth. Gates in a rather nasty and very smart little man who took an opportunity and ran with it. His strong point is marketing, not anything technical.


What I was saying all along.
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