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Posted: 8/2/2005 11:28:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 11:30:48 PM EDT by The_Macallan]
Don't we have more important enemies to root out of our country than an 86 year old man?


Chicago man accused of helping Nazis

CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- An aging Chicago carpenter should be stripped of his U.S. citizenship because he was a member of a police unit that helped the Nazis round up Ukrainian Jews for forced labor and death camps during World War II, federal attorneys argue.

"He acquiesced in conduct contrary to civilization and decency," government attorney Gregory Gordon told U.S. District Judge Samuel Der-Yeghiayan as a civil trial against Osyp Firishchak began Monday.

Firishchak, 86, came to the United States after World War II, settled in Chicago and obtained American citizenship. But the Justice Department's Nazi-hunting Office of Special Investigations says he lied on his visa application and broke other rules.

The government says he joined the Ukrainian Auxiliary Police and helped in widespread roundups of Jews who were sent to forced labor camps and death camps after the Germans occupied Ukraine in 1941.

If Der-Yeghiayan rules against him, Firishchak would be stripped of his citizenship. The government then likely would seek to deport him.

Defense attorney James Maher III told the judge that Firishchak was never a member of the Ukrainian Auxiliary Police and that there is no proof he did any of the things the government claims. Maher also said there is nothing to suggest Firishchak was dishonest on his visa application.

The government's first witness, Holocaust researcher Dieter Pohl, described what happened to the Jewish population in the city of Lviv at the hands of the Ukrainian Auxiliary Police.

"There was constant violence against the Jews," Pohl said.

Firishchak's name of surfaced after the fall of the Soviet Union when the newly independent Ukraine opened its archives to Holocaust researchers.

Government attorneys acknowledged they have only a smattering of direct evidence that specific acts allegedly were committed by Firishchak. But they say they can prove he was part of the auxiliary police throughout the war and that the unit was instrumental in carrying out the Holocaust in Ukraine.



And how is "Nazi-hunting" by our Gov't permitted but "Illegal Mexican-hunting" by our Gov't is horrifically racist??

Link Posted: 8/2/2005 11:32:44 PM EDT
If he played a hand in the deaths of 1,000,000's I could give a shit less about him.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 11:43:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:
If he played a hand in the deaths of 1,000,000's I could give a shit less about him.



Ehh..... maybe, but I think the argument is: couldn't the money be better spent say - deporting illegals or tracking serious sex offenders?
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 11:45:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 11:49:56 PM EDT by LArifleMAN]
Take away his walker and use it to beat down some illegals. I mean its only fair


Deport everyone, I mean everyone. Then start completely over. One giant free for all. It would be fun
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 11:48:25 PM EDT
We had a similar situation here a couple years ago, except this guy was a concentration camp prison guard. See you later bye don't come back for him. Deporting illegals is a waste of money too, they just come right back over, and that's IF they even leave.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 11:51:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 11:58:49 PM EDT
I say turn him over to the JDL.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:05:02 PM EDT
Will they then start prosecuting all those in the US involved with rounding up and putting japanese-americans in concentration camps? I'm willing to bet some members here have parents and grandparents involved in this.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:06:15 PM EDT
There's never a statute of limitations on justice for Nazi murderers.
We need to hound these murders to their graves.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:06:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dugedug:
Will they then start prosecuting all those in the US involved with rounding up and putting japanese-americans in concentration camps? I'm willing to bet some members here have parents and grandparents involved in this.



No, silly, we won.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:08:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87:

Originally Posted By dugedug:
Will they then start prosecuting all those in the US involved with rounding up and putting japanese-americans in concentration camps? I'm willing to bet some members here have parents and grandparents involved in this.



No, silly, we won.



Crap i'm sorry, I keep forgetting that.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:09:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
There's never a statute of limitations on justice for Nazi murderers.
We need to hound these murders to their graves.



Have you followed any of the trials?

I'm all for vigorous prosecution of REAL murderers.

But someone testifying that it's the same guy because they'll never forget the eyes, and they were 12 at the time and never saw him since in 60 years, I just don't know.

I mean, COULD YOU tell the truth in that situation/ You'd want it to be the guy, and you'd want him to fry SO BAD.

Demejnuik (sp disaster) really got shafted, so badly that the Israeli Supremes reversed his conviction.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:10:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:11:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 1:12:22 PM EDT by ThreatResponse]
No need for us to judge him, GOD will handle that.

Ask yourself what would you have done if you were a German soldier. You would have most likely followed your orders. I am sure that quite a few soldiers enjoyed their jobs a little too much. I also believe that most hated what they were forced to do. German soldiers were shot on the spot for failure to execute their duties.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:12:38 PM EDT

Ehh..... maybe, but I think the argument is: couldn't the money be better spent say - deporting illegals or tracking serious sex offenders?


Nope. Advice: Go visit Dachau...it's glaringly obvious that you've never been.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:12:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:14:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:14:50 PM EDT
not all of the camp guards committed atrocities.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:15:55 PM EDT
What a waste! Leave the guy alone, and use the money on somthing worth a shit for a change!
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:16:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By THR-Thumper:

Ehh..... maybe, but I think the argument is: couldn't the money be better spent say - deporting illegals or tracking serious sex offenders?


Nope. Advice: Go visit Dachau...it's glaringly obvious that you've never been.



Interesting, and neither has this old man...
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:17:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
not all of the camp guards committed atrocities.


SO I guess they where not aware of what was going on?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:17:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
There's never a statute of limitations on justice for Nazi murderers.
We need to hound these murders to their graves.



Have you followed any of the trials?

I'm all for vigorous prosecution of REAL murderers.

But someone testifying that it's the same guy because they'll never forget the eyes, and they were 12 at the time and never saw him since in 60 years, I just don't know.

I mean, COULD YOU tell the truth in that situation/ You'd want it to be the guy, and you'd want him to fry SO BAD.

Demejnuik (sp disaster) really got shafted, so badly that the Israeli Supremes reversed his conviction.



If the government thinks they have a case, they should investigate, indict and go for the conviction. Just because it happened over 60 years ago makes it no less of a crime.

Demejnuik (it is a spelling disaster) may have gotten the shaft, but you can't use that one case to impugn the other cases where war criminals have been (finally) caught and tried.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:17:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
not all of the camp guards committed atrocities.


SO I guess they where not aware of what was going on?



So did Roosevelt, what's your point?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:19:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:19:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
not all of the camp guards committed atrocities.



WTF ?

"I was just the inker for all those tattoos."
"Hey, I only shaved their heads."

Even the people in the villages knew what was going on.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:21:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By dugedug:

Originally Posted By THR-Thumper:

Ehh..... maybe, but I think the argument is: couldn't the money be better spent say - deporting illegals or tracking serious sex offenders?


Nope. Advice: Go visit Dachau...it's glaringly obvious that you've never been.



Interesting, and neither has this old man...



and if he has... what is the point now. he will be judged in the end. is he a threat to society after he has lived here for the last 60 or so years without incident. I hate nazi's as well, but this is a waste of time and resources at this point.



"Waste of time"?
Bringing mass murders to justice is never a "waste of time".
Even if they're 86 years-old, incontinent and senile.
People who commit these atrocities should always know that justice is catching up with them.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:21:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
There's never a statute of limitations on justice for Nazi murderers.
We need to hound these murders to their graves.



Have you followed any of the trials?

I'm all for vigorous prosecution of REAL murderers.

But someone testifying that it's the same guy because they'll never forget the eyes, and they were 12 at the time and never saw him since in 60 years, I just don't know.

I mean, COULD YOU tell the truth in that situation/ You'd want it to be the guy, and you'd want him to fry SO BAD.

Demejnuik (sp disaster) really got shafted, so badly that the Israeli Supremes reversed his conviction.



If the government thinks they have a case, they should investigate, indict and go for the conviction. Just because it happened over 60 years ago makes it no less of a crime.

Demejnuik (it is a spelling disaster) may have gotten the shaft, but you can't use that one case to impugn the other cases where war criminals have been (finally) caught and tried.



Agreed, those guys who woke up in the '50s with headaches on Herky birds bound for Israel got exactly what was coming. I use Dem's case not to impugn, but to illustrate the difficulties in prosecution.

But I deal with witnesses for a living, there is a very real danger that someone who went through what these people did will be HIGHLY influenced by the government thinking that there is a case.

It certainly SHOULD be investigated, but calm heads should prevail about whether there is evidence to try him. I don't want anybody sacrificed at the alter of "never let it be said we don;t take this seriously."
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:21:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dugedug:

Originally Posted By THR-Thumper:

Ehh..... maybe, but I think the argument is: couldn't the money be better spent say - deporting illegals or tracking serious sex offenders?


Nope. Advice: Go visit Dachau...it's glaringly obvious that you've never been.



Interesting, and neither has this old man...



And why are you apologizing for this monster? How familiar are you with Nazi attrocities? Or are you? Is it ancient history to you?

He's a monster...age doesn't disqualify anyone for answering for their crimes.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:22:04 PM EDT
Don't care, if he had anything to do with concentration camps then he can pack his shit and get out.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:22:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By THR-Thumper:

Ehh..... maybe, but I think the argument is: couldn't the money be better spent say - deporting illegals or tracking serious sex offenders?


Nope. Advice: Go visit Dachau...it's glaringly obvious that you've never been.



I've been to Dachau, and I think we should hire this guy to round up child molesters and the like and put them in a camp.

Seriously though, hes gonna kick off in a couple of years anyhow, probably hasn't hurt anyone in sixty plus years, call it time off for good behavior and let him wait to die. He'll pay for what he did when he meets his maker anyhow.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:22:53 PM EDT
So i'll ask it again. To all those that want to convict this man. Will you stand behind the persecution of the Americans involved in hearding japanese-americans into camps?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:26:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:27:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
not all of the camp guards committed atrocities.



WTF ?

"I was just the inker for all those tattoos."
"Hey, I only shaved their heads."

Even the people in the villages knew what was going on.



I believe some of those jobs were actually done by jewish internees. The '100 corp' or something similar.


Let's not forget that the U.S. hired many ex nazi's to work on research- medicine, weapons, etc AFTER the war. IIRC-Very few of the SS guys were prosecuted- most moved to the U.S.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:27:33 PM EDT
Makes Me think of "Marathon Man".

The Only Good Nazi, Is a DEAD Nazi.


I could care less if He sport's Depends, or is a young Neo-knuckle head
with a Mean Goose-Step.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:28:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
There's never a statute of limitations on justice for Nazi murderers.
We need to hound these murders to their graves.



Have you followed any of the trials?

I'm all for vigorous prosecution of REAL murderers.

But someone testifying that it's the same guy because they'll never forget the eyes, and they were 12 at the time and never saw him since in 60 years, I just don't know.

I mean, COULD YOU tell the truth in that situation/ You'd want it to be the guy, and you'd want him to fry SO BAD.

Demejnuik (sp disaster) really got shafted, so badly that the Israeli Supremes reversed his conviction.



If the government thinks they have a case, they should investigate, indict and go for the conviction. Just because it happened over 60 years ago makes it no less of a crime.

Demejnuik (it is a spelling disaster) may have gotten the shaft, but you can't use that one case to impugn the other cases where war criminals have been (finally) caught and tried.



Agreed, those guys who woke up in the '50s with headaches on Herky birds bound for Israel got exactly what was coming. I use Dem's case not to impugn, but to illustrate the difficulties in prosecution.

But I deal with witnesses for a living, there is a very real danger that someone who went through what these people did will be HIGHLY influenced by the government thinking that there is a case.

It certainly SHOULD be investigated, but calm heads should prevail about whether there is evidence to try him. I don't want anybody sacrificed at the alter of "never let it be said we don;t take this seriously."



Agreed.
60 year old memories fail and I'd rather see a Nazi go free than an innocent man accused and convicted of being the lowest of the low.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:29:00 PM EDT
That seems to me to be awful thin evidence to use to deport a citizen.
No evidence of any wrongdoing, except he was a member of a police force that did do bad things.

I say if Urkraine want to charge him send him over. If they don't want to....leave the old man alone.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:29:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By THR-Thumper:

Originally Posted By dugedug:

Originally Posted By THR-Thumper:

Ehh..... maybe, but I think the argument is: couldn't the money be better spent say - deporting illegals or tracking serious sex offenders?


Nope. Advice: Go visit Dachau...it's glaringly obvious that you've never been.



Interesting, and neither has this old man...



And why are you apologizing for this monster? How familiar are you with Nazi attrocities? Or are you? Is it ancient history to you?

He's a monster...age doesn't disqualify anyone for answering for their crimes.



Isn't he just an accused monster at this point?

I mean, I could accuse YOU of the same offence. The offence doesn't define what he is, a conviction does.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:30:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dugedug:
So i'll ask it again. To all those that want to convict this man. Will you stand behind the persecution of the Americans involved in hearding japanese-americans into camps?



how many millions of japanese were killed?

were they fed? were they schooled? were they seperated from family members?

if you can't see the difference, there is no point in arguing it.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:31:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Only_Hits_Count:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
not all of the camp guards committed atrocities.



WTF ?

"I was just the inker for all those tattoos."
"Hey, I only shaved their heads."

Even the people in the villages knew what was going on.



I believe some of those jobs were actually done by jewish internees. The '100 corp' or something similar.


Let's not forget that the U.S. hired many ex nazi's to work on research- medicine, weapons, etc AFTER the war. IIRC-Very few of the SS guys were prosecuted- most moved to the U.S.



"Our German rocket scientists are better than their German rocket scientists."

Designing and building weapons isn't a war crime.
Herding innocent noncombatants into mass graves and Zyklon-B showers is.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:31:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:32:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 1:35:07 PM EDT by dugedug]

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By dugedug:
So i'll ask it again. To all those that want to convict this man. Will you stand behind the persecution of the Americans involved in hearding japanese-americans into camps?



how many millions of japanese were killed?

were they fed? were they schooled? were they seperated from family members?

if you can't see the difference, there is no point in arguing it.



This person was not involved in any of that. He did the exact same thing many americans did. Unless you have proof that no one else has. fess up.




"Herding innocent noncombatants into mass graves and Zyklon-B showers is."

you must know somethign that no one else does because none of this is mentioned in any article.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:33:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By dugedug:
So i'll ask it again. To all those that want to convict this man. Will you stand behind the persecution of the Americans involved in hearding japanese-americans into camps?



how many millions of japanese were killed?

were they fed? were they schooled? were they seperated from family members?

if you can't see the difference, there is no point in arguing it.



I was just about the express similar sentiments.

+1.

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:33:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
not all of the camp guards committed atrocities.



WTF ?

"I was just the inker for all those tattoos."
"Hey, I only shaved their heads."

Even the people in the villages knew what was going on.



So what your saying is that we should kill all Germans that lived from 1939 to 1945? How is that any better than killing all the Jewish people from 1939 to 1945?

What else where these people to do?
Even if they did disagree with it, they sure as shit didn't want to be put in there!
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:33:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
So by the reckoning of some here if they happened across an 86 year old Japanese who was involved in the Baatan Death March, or an 86 year old German who was involved in the Malmedy Massacre, he should be left alone because he is old and got away with it for 60 years

Curious logic…


ANdy



To some, that appears to be the sentiment.

To ME, however, the key question is, how do we know he was?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:34:12 PM EDT
It seems to me that NOBODY read anything but the title.

He wasn't a fucking guard.
He was a policeman.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:34:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dugedug:
So i'll ask it again. To all those that want to convict this man. Will you stand behind the persecution of the Americans involved in hearding japanese-americans into camps?



1. Our internment of Americans of Japanese descent was legal. There was more than enough evidence that their cultural and racial alliances were stronger than their nationalsim. Was there a better way? I'm not so sure.

2. Nobody died. Many lost land and businesses, but we compensated them later ($30,000 each, IIRC) back in the 1980s.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:36:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By krpind:
It seems to me that NOBODY read anything but the title.

He wasn't a fucking guard.
He was a policeman.



Yeah, we read it.
But the Demanjuk, Dameniuk, (awww fuck it.) case brought up the issue of Nazi guards.

There were plenty of civilian collaborators in The Holocaust.
Mayors, police, businessmen.
String them all up.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:38:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By dugedug:
So i'll ask it again. To all those that want to convict this man. Will you stand behind the persecution of the Americans involved in hearding japanese-americans into camps?



1. Our internment of Americans of Japanese descent was legal. There was more than enough evidence that their cultural and racial alliances were stronger than their nationalsim. Was there a better way? I'm not so sure.

2. Nobody died. Many lost land and businesses, but we compensated them later ($30,000 each, IIRC) back in the 1980s.



It was legal in germany too. But by your logic we should still be locking up innocent people(all middle-easterners by todays standard) in concentration camps.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:39:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:


1. Our internment of Americans was legal .



You have lost your mind.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:39:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By krpind:
It seems to me that NOBODY read anything but the title.

He wasn't a fucking guard.
He was a policeman.



Yeah, we read it.
But the Demanjuk, Dameniuk, (awww fuck it.) case brought up the issue of Nazi guards.

There were plenty of civilian collaborators in The Holocaust.
Mayors, police, businessmen.
String them all up.



Uhh, yeah, it was my pontificating that derailed the thread.

Sorry, but at least I didn't kill the thread, which is my MO.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 1:40:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dugedug:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By dugedug:
So i'll ask it again. To all those that want to convict this man. Will you stand behind the persecution of the Americans involved in hearding japanese-americans into camps?



1. Our internment of Americans of Japanese descent was legal. There was more than enough evidence that their cultural and racial alliances were stronger than their nationalsim. Was there a better way? I'm not so sure.

2. Nobody died. Many lost land and businesses, but we compensated them later ($30,000 each, IIRC) back in the 1980s.



It was legal in germany too. But by your logic we should still be locking up innocent people(all middle-easterners by todays standard) in concentration camps.



Well, it wasn't my logic. It was Roosevelt's.
I'm still grappling with the issue, myself.
But the goal wasn't to exterminate a race and we never took the slightest steps toward it.

Now, if you want to make a better argument, bring up George Armstrong Custer and we might have a closer comparison.
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