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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/25/2005 1:39:24 AM EDT
Interesting read :
US forced to import bullets from Israel as troops use 250,000 for every rebel killed
By Andrew Buncombe in Washington
Published: 25 September 2005

US forces have fired so many bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan - an estimated 250,000 for every insurgent killed - that American ammunition-makers cannot keep up with demand. As a result the US is having to import supplies from Israel.

A government report says that US forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year. The total has more than doubled in five years, largely as a result of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as changes in military doctrine.

"The Department of Defense's increased requirements for small- and medium-calibre ammunitions have largely been driven by increased weapons training requirements, dictated by the army's transformation to a more self-sustaining and lethal force - which was accelerated after the attacks of 11 September, 2001 - and by the deployment of forces to conduct recent US military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq," said the report by the General Accounting Office (GAO).

Estimating how many bullets US forces have expended for every insurgent killed is not a simple or precisely scientific matter. The former head of US forces in Iraq, General Tommy Franks, famously claimed that his forces "don't do body counts".

But senior officers have recently claimed "great successes" in Iraq, based on counting the bodies of insurgents killed. Maj-Gen Rick Lynch, the top US military spokesman in Iraq, said 1,534 insurgents had been seized or killed in a recent operation in the west of Baghdad. Other estimates from military officials suggest that at least 20,000 insurgents have been killed in President George Bush's "war on terror".

John Pike, director of the Washington military research group GlobalSecurity.org, said that, based on the GAO's figures, US forces had expended around six billion bullets between 2002 and 2005. "How many evil-doers have we sent to their maker using bullets rather than bombs? I don't know," he said.

"If they don't do body counts, how can I? But using these figures it works out at around 300,000 bullets per insurgent. Let's round that down to 250,000 so that we are underestimating."

Pointing out that officials say many of these bullets have been used for training purposes, he said: "What are you training for? To kill insurgents."

Kathy Kelly, a spokeswoman for the peace group Voices in the Wilderness, said Mr Bush believed security for the American people could come only from the use of force. Truer security would be achieved if the US developed fairer relations with other countries and was not involved in the occupation of Iraq. The President, said Ms Kelly, should learn from Israel's experience of "occupying the Palestinians" rather than buying its ammunition.

The GAO report notes that the three government-owned, contractor-operated plants that produce small- and medium-calibre ammunition were built in 1941.

Though millions of dollars have been spent on upgrading the facilities, they remain unable to meet current munitions needs in their current state. "The government-owned plant producing small-calibre ammunition cannot meet the increased requirements, even with modernisation efforts," said the report.

"Also, commercial producers within the national technology and industrial base have not had the capacity to meet these requirements. As a result, the Department of Defense had to rely at least in part on foreign commercial producers to meet its small-calibre ammunition needs."

A report in Manufacturing & Technology News said that the Pentagon eventually found two producers capable of meeting its requirements. One of these was the US firm Olin-Winchester.

The other was Israel Military Industries, an Israeli ammunition manufacturer linked to the Israeli government, which produces the bulk of weapons and ordnance for the Israeli Defence Force.

The Pentagon reportedly bought 313 million rounds of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and 50-calibre ammunition last year and paid $10m (about £5.5m) more than it would have cost for it to produce the ammunition at its own facilities.

US forces have fired so many bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan - an estimated 250,000 for every insurgent killed - that American ammunition-makers cannot keep up with demand. As a result the US is having to import supplies from Israel.

A government report says that US forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year. The total has more than doubled in five years, largely as a result of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as changes in military doctrine.

"The Department of Defense's increased requirements for small- and medium-calibre ammunitions have largely been driven by increased weapons training requirements, dictated by the army's transformation to a more self-sustaining and lethal force - which was accelerated after the attacks of 11 September, 2001 - and by the deployment of forces to conduct recent US military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq," said the report by the General Accounting Office (GAO).

Estimating how many bullets US forces have expended for every insurgent killed is not a simple or precisely scientific matter. The former head of US forces in Iraq, General Tommy Franks, famously claimed that his forces "don't do body counts".

But senior officers have recently claimed "great successes" in Iraq, based on counting the bodies of insurgents killed. Maj-Gen Rick Lynch, the top US military spokesman in Iraq, said 1,534 insurgents had been seized or killed in a recent operation in the west of Baghdad. Other estimates from military officials suggest that at least 20,000 insurgents have been killed in President George Bush's "war on terror".

John Pike, director of the Washington military research group GlobalSecurity.org, said that, based on the GAO's figures, US forces had expended around six billion bullets between 2002 and 2005. "How many evil-doers have we sent to their maker using bullets rather than bombs? I don't know," he said.

"If they don't do body counts, how can I? But using these figures it works out at around 300,000 bullets per insurgent. Let's round that down to 250,000 so that we are underestimating."
Pointing out that officials say many of these bullets have been used for training purposes, he said: "What are you training for? To kill insurgents."

Kathy Kelly, a spokeswoman for the peace group Voices in the Wilderness, said Mr Bush believed security for the American people could come only from the use of force. Truer security would be achieved if the US developed fairer relations with other countries and was not involved in the occupation of Iraq. The President, said Ms Kelly, should learn from Israel's experience of "occupying the Palestinians" rather than buying its ammunition.

The GAO report notes that the three government-owned, contractor-operated plants that produce small- and medium-calibre ammunition were built in 1941.

Though millions of dollars have been spent on upgrading the facilities, they remain unable to meet current munitions needs in their current state. "The government-owned plant producing small-calibre ammunition cannot meet the increased requirements, even with modernisation efforts," said the report.

"Also, commercial producers within the national technology and industrial base have not had the capacity to meet these requirements. As a result, the Department of Defense had to rely at least in part on foreign commercial producers to meet its small-calibre ammunition needs."

A report in Manufacturing & Technology News said that the Pentagon eventually found two producers capable of meeting its requirements. One of these was the US firm Olin-Winchester.

The other was Israel Military Industries, an Israeli ammunition manufacturer linked to the Israeli government, which produces the bulk of weapons and ordnance for the Israeli Defence Force.

The Pentagon reportedly bought 313 million rounds of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and 50-calibre ammunition last year and paid $10m (about £5.5m) more than it would have cost for it to produce the ammunition at its own facilities.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:41:32 AM EDT
Last year they were forced to NOT do this because there was a great uproar about
Jewish bullets being used to kill muslims.......forgetting IMI is really a US paid for factory
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:45:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 1:46:41 AM EDT by Maxxx]

Originally Posted By glck32:
Interesting read :
US forced to import bullets from Israel as troops use 250,000 for every rebel killed
By Andrew Buncombe in Washington
Published: 25 September 2005

US forces have fired so many bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan - an estimated 250,000 for every insurgent killed - that American ammunition-makers cannot keep up with demand. As a result the US is having to import supplies from Israel.

A government report says that US forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year. The total has more than doubled in five years, largely as a result of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as changes in military doctrine.

"The Department of Defense's increased requirements for small- and medium-calibre ammunitions have largely been driven by increased weapons training requirements, dictated by the army's transformation to a more self-sustaining and lethal force - which was accelerated after the attacks of 11 September, 2001 - and by the deployment of forces to conduct recent US military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq," said the report by the General Accounting Office (GAO).

Estimating how many bullets US forces have expended for every insurgent killed is not a simple or precisely scientific matter. The former head of US forces in Iraq, General Tommy Franks, famously claimed that his forces "don't do body counts".

But senior officers have recently claimed "great successes" in Iraq, based on counting the bodies of insurgents killed. Maj-Gen Rick Lynch, the top US military spokesman in Iraq, said 1,534 insurgents had been seized or killed in a recent operation in the west of Baghdad. Other estimates from military officials suggest that at least 20,000 insurgents have been killed in President George Bush's "war on terror".

John Pike, director of the Washington military research group GlobalSecurity.org, said that, based on the GAO's figures, US forces had expended around six billion bullets between 2002 and 2005. "How many evil-doers have we sent to their maker using bullets rather than bombs? I don't know," he said.

"If they don't do body counts, how can I? But using these figures it works out at around 300,000 bullets per insurgent. Let's round that down to 250,000 so that we are underestimating."

Pointing out that officials say many of these bullets have been used for training purposes, he said: "What are you training for? To kill insurgents."

Kathy Kelly, a spokeswoman for the peace group Voices in the Wilderness, said Mr Bush believed security for the American people could come only from the use of force. Truer security would be achieved if the US developed fairer relations with other countries and was not involved in the occupation of Iraq. The President, said Ms Kelly, should learn from Israel's experience of "occupying the Palestinians" rather than buying its ammunition.

What the hell does this have to do with the rest of the article

The GAO report notes that the three government-owned, contractor-operated plants that produce small- and medium-calibre ammunition were built in 1941.

Though millions of dollars have been spent on upgrading the facilities, they remain unable to meet current munitions needs in their current state. "The government-owned plant producing small-calibre ammunition cannot meet the increased requirements, even with modernisation efforts," said the report.

"Also, commercial producers within the national technology and industrial base have not had the capacity to meet these requirements. As a result, the Department of Defense had to rely at least in part on foreign commercial producers to meet its small-calibre ammunition needs."

A report in Manufacturing & Technology News said that the Pentagon eventually found two producers capable of meeting its requirements. One of these was the US firm Olin-Winchester.

The other was Israel Military Industries, an Israeli ammunition manufacturer linked to the Israeli government, which produces the bulk of weapons and ordnance for the Israeli Defence Force.

The Pentagon reportedly bought 313 million rounds of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and 50-calibre ammunition last year and paid $10m (about £5.5m) more than it would have cost for it to produce the ammunition at its own facilities.

US forces have fired so many bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan - an estimated 250,000 for every insurgent killed - that American ammunition-makers cannot keep up with demand. As a result the US is having to import supplies from Israel.

A government report says that US forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year. The total has more than doubled in five years, largely as a result of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as changes in military doctrine.

"The Department of Defense's increased requirements for small- and medium-calibre ammunitions have largely been driven by increased weapons training requirements, dictated by the army's transformation to a more self-sustaining and lethal force - which was accelerated after the attacks of 11 September, 2001 - and by the deployment of forces to conduct recent US military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq," said the report by the General Accounting Office (GAO).

Estimating how many bullets US forces have expended for every insurgent killed is not a simple or precisely scientific matter. The former head of US forces in Iraq, General Tommy Franks, famously claimed that his forces "don't do body counts".

But senior officers have recently claimed "great successes" in Iraq, based on counting the bodies of insurgents killed. Maj-Gen Rick Lynch, the top US military spokesman in Iraq, said 1,534 insurgents had been seized or killed in a recent operation in the west of Baghdad. Other estimates from military officials suggest that at least 20,000 insurgents have been killed in President George Bush's "war on terror".

John Pike, director of the Washington military research group GlobalSecurity.org, said that, based on the GAO's figures, US forces had expended around six billion bullets between 2002 and 2005. "How many evil-doers have we sent to their maker using bullets rather than bombs? I don't know," he said.

"If they don't do body counts, how can I? But using these figures it works out at around 300,000 bullets per insurgent. Let's round that down to 250,000 so that we are underestimating."
Pointing out that officials say many of these bullets have been used for training purposes, he said: "What are you training for? To kill insurgents."

Kathy Kelly, a spokeswoman for the peace group Voices in the Wilderness, said Mr Bush believed security for the American people could come only from the use of force. Truer security would be achieved if the US developed fairer relations with other countries and was not involved in the occupation of Iraq. The President, said Ms Kelly, should learn from Israel's experience of "occupying the Palestinians" rather than buying its ammunition.

The GAO report notes that the three government-owned, contractor-operated plants that produce small- and medium-calibre ammunition were built in 1941.

Though millions of dollars have been spent on upgrading the facilities, they remain unable to meet current munitions needs in their current state. "The government-owned plant producing small-calibre ammunition cannot meet the increased requirements, even with modernisation efforts," said the report.

"Also, commercial producers within the national technology and industrial base have not had the capacity to meet these requirements. As a result, the Department of Defense had to rely at least in part on foreign commercial producers to meet its small-calibre ammunition needs."

A report in Manufacturing & Technology News said that the Pentagon eventually found two producers capable of meeting its requirements. One of these was the US firm Olin-Winchester.

The other was Israel Military Industries, an Israeli ammunition manufacturer linked to the Israeli government, which produces the bulk of weapons and ordnance for the Israeli Defence Force.

The Pentagon reportedly bought 313 million rounds of 5.56mm, 7.62mm and 50-calibre ammunition last year and paid $10m (about £5.5m) more than it would have cost for it to produce the ammunition at its own facilities.

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:49:58 AM EDT
I wondered the same.

I am sure that billions of rounds remain in storage. The military wants to keep a substantial reserve on hand though, as with all material.

They need to build another plant. They ought to surplus ammo to civilians to cover the cost.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:06:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 2:52:12 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
When we draw training ammo here we get Brit L2A2 stuff, brown ammo cans and all.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:14:35 AM EDT
I wonder if the shortage of ammo is somehow related to the lack of shooting skills of todays youth or due to the heat of battle you just develop a " spray and pray" mentality and hope you hit the target or a combination of both. I would think that the higher use of optics in todays military would somehow reduce the round count also....
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:14:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
When we draw trining ammo here we get Brit L2A2 stuff, brown ammo cans and all.



Is that the downloaded stuff?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:20:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glck32:
I wonder if the shortage of ammo is somehow related to the lack of shooting skills of todays youth or due to the heat of battle you just develop a " spray and pray" mentality and hope you hit the target or a combination of both. I would think that the higher use of optics in todays military would somehow reduce the round count also....




No, the higher use of ammo is directly related to the ongoing war on two fronts.

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:20:53 AM EDT
250,000 rounds is outlandish. Spin at its best. They are probably including all the training rounds that are being shot not in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:40:23 AM EDT
It's all those damn miniguns I tell ya.


250k sounds VERY outlandish. Methinks that is what they purchased and stored not what was shot..<shrug>
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:47:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By deadcat:
250,000 rounds is outlandish. Spin at its best. They are probably including all the training rounds that are being shot not in Iraq or Afghanistan.



...and the ones to kill dogs.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:53:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glck32:
I wonder if the shortage of ammo is somehow related to the lack of shooting skills of todays youth or due to the heat of battle you just develop a " spray and pray" mentality and hope you hit the target or a combination of both. I would think that the higher use of optics in todays military would somehow reduce the round count also....



Or perhaps it is related to the proper use of the "Fire and Maneuver" doctrine?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:54:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glck32:
I wonder if the shortage of ammo is somehow related to the lack of shooting skills of todays youth or due to the heat of battle you just develop a " spray and pray" mentality and hope you hit the target or a combination of both. I would think that the higher use of optics in todays military would somehow reduce the round count also....



And pray Jesus for his blessing to guide the bullets to destination.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:56:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:

Originally Posted By deadcat:
250,000 rounds is outlandish. Spin at its best. They are probably including all the training rounds that are being shot not in Iraq or Afghanistan.



...and the ones to kill dogs.





Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:59:30 AM EDT
I wonder if we who we are getting brass, powder, and primers from if we are only getting bullets from Israel?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 3:26:01 AM EDT
The billions of rounds used includes the billions of rounds used in predeployment training, a while back I ordered my Battalion's predeployment training ammo and that was around 4.7 million rounds of all types.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 3:30:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glck32:
I wonder if the shortage of ammo is somehow related to the lack of shooting skills of todays youth or due to the heat of battle you just develop a " spray and pray" mentality and hope you hit the target or a combination of both. I would think that the higher use of optics in todays military would somehow reduce the round count also....



No, trust me our troops today are actually much better trained than the troops from several generations ago. It is a great myth that troops from the past were better with their weapons than our current troops. Look at all the studies following WWI (mostly conducted by Europeans), WWII and Korea, they all point to the need for high volume of fire and a different paradigm on combat marksmanship.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 3:38:11 AM EDT
This "report" is clearly made by anti US, pro Jihadi types.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 3:57:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sigurd:

Originally Posted By glck32:
I wonder if the shortage of ammo is somehow related to the lack of shooting skills of todays youth or due to the heat of battle you just develop a " spray and pray" mentality and hope you hit the target or a combination of both. I would think that the higher use of optics in todays military would somehow reduce the round count also....




No, the higher use of ammo is directly related to the ongoing war on two fronts.




As stated in the article above it is due in large part to the extensive arms training each soldier receives on an ongoing basis. ie, they shoot at a LOT of targets..so they can be sure they will be able to hit that ONE guy that is trying to kill them...
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 4:01:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By STLRN:

Originally Posted By glck32:
I wonder if the shortage of ammo is somehow related to the lack of shooting skills of todays youth or due to the heat of battle you just develop a " spray and pray" mentality and hope you hit the target or a combination of both. I would think that the higher use of optics in todays military would somehow reduce the round count also....



No, trust me our troops today are actually much better trained than the troops from several generations ago. It is a great myth that troops from the past were better with their weapons than our current troops. Look at all the studies following WWI (mostly conducted by Europeans), WWII and Korea, they all point to the need for high volume of fire and a different paradigm on combat marksmanship.


There were so many headshots in Fallujah that some in the press started whinging about mass executions.
Optical sights are a noticable improvement over iron.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 4:06:43 AM EDT
Lake City still seems to have plenty for the civilian market- this Israel purchase may have been a lower bid, or a return favor lower bid to the US.

A gun store near me has had 500 round cases stacked up in the store for $89.95 for several years now, and when I look at the mfg dates, they're never more than a month or so old. The owner says they always have tons of the stuff.



Link Posted: 9/25/2005 4:33:03 AM EDT
Six billion bullets fired?

But the lead... the environment....

Won't somebody PLEASE think of the environment?!?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 4:47:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DDiggler:
Six billion bullets fired?

But the lead... the environment....

Won't somebody PLEASE think of the environment?!?



What about all that reloadable brass we will never see again?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:21:08 AM EDT
Figuring it that way, I only use about 5,000 rounds for each deer I kill.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:27:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glck32:
I wonder if the shortage of ammo is somehow related to the lack of shooting skills of todays youth or due to the heat of battle you just develop a " spray and pray" mentality and hope you hit the target or a combination of both. I would think that the higher use of optics in todays military would somehow reduce the round count also....



Doubt it.

I was 11B from 84-88,Reagan era.Not counting basic training I shot about 500 rounds through my M16.I was a fucking 11B and we rarely shot live rounds!! Most of the stuff we did was with MILES and blanks.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:32:58 AM EDT

Interesting read :


Yes it was, but why does the article repeat itself?

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:33:07 AM EDT
IMI makes good bullets,I bought 5k 55gn bullets for 120 bucks a few years ago,have about half left.Over 25 gns of win748 they are very accurate in my ar rifles.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:42:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:47:43 AM EDT
I'm not going to hold my breath for a boatload of Q3131A to show up any time soon.

CWO
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:54:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:01:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 8:02:01 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]

Originally Posted By Gregory_A:

Originally Posted By glck32:
I wonder if the shortage of ammo is somehow related to the lack of shooting skills of todays youth or due to the heat of battle you just develop a " spray and pray" mentality and hope you hit the target or a combination of both. I would think that the higher use of optics in todays military would somehow reduce the round count also....



Doubt it.

I was 11B from 84-88,Reagan era.Not counting basic training I shot about 500 rounds through my M16.I was a fucking 11B and we rarely shot live rounds!! Most of the stuff we did was with MILES and blanks.



Times have changed. I fired more than that just during the mobilization at Bragg
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:12:29 AM EDT
Geez, if we were in a real war, we'd be screwed!

Before you jump on the troll choo-choo, this is being sarcastic, pointing out that very few people, even the administration are treating the war in Iraq as an all out war, but more as something that can be seen on TV.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:20:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By STLRN:

Originally Posted By glck32:
I wonder if the shortage of ammo is somehow related to the lack of shooting skills of todays youth or due to the heat of battle you just develop a " spray and pray" mentality and hope you hit the target or a combination of both. I would think that the higher use of optics in todays military would somehow reduce the round count also....



No, trust me our troops today are actually much better trained than the troops from several generations ago. It is a great myth that troops from the past were better with their weapons than our current troops. Look at all the studies following WWI (mostly conducted by Europeans), WWII and Korea, they all point to the need for high volume of fire and a different paradigm on combat marksmanship.



Also, today most of our troops are actually fireing their weapons in combat. In WW2 as many as 80% of troops did not actively engage the enemy even during firefights. Training has changed a lot.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:26:42 AM EDT
I say buy the ammo from Isreal & then dip it in pig blood. Muslim detainees should be fed a steady diet of bacon & egs, lox & bagels. If they don't like it they can go on a hunger strike & starve to death.

We need to learn that the only way these folks ever seem to have peace is through the brutality of the sword. Saddam knew this. Put him back in charge & there will be peace in 90 days.

Of course all this is sooo much more inhumane than beheading on TV.....
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:43:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ISMO:
I say buy the ammo from Isreal & then dip it in pig blood. Muslim detainees should be fed a steady diet of bacon & egs, lox & bagels. If they don't like it they can go on a hunger strike & starve to death.

We need to learn that the only way these folks ever seem to have peace is through the brutality of the sword. Saddam knew this. Put him back in charge & there will be peace in 90 days.

Of course all this is sooo much more inhumane than beheading on TV.....



You, Sir ,need to ban yourself immediately ! Thoughts deemed detrimental towards the religion of peace are not welcomed here ! This site is for guns and repairing the negative image of the nation of Izlam ! They are not savages,just misunderstood combatants !
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:54:47 AM EDT
But my question is can we get these in a kosher version?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:57:48 AM EDT
GregoryA you are right,

for my culturally insensitive transgression I will watch Barney video's for 1 hour then memorize & sing Cumbaya for another hour. At the end of that I will see if I can find some Cindy Shehan videos out on the net for the remainder of the day. If that doesn't work them I may need medication to keep the evil voices out of my head.... Maybe I can find that Hillary 08 website... Hmm, it doesn't seem to be in My Favorites .....I thought for sure.....
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