Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 8
Posted: 9/24/2014 9:44:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2014 9:45:52 AM EST by Miles_Urbanus]



The Protector MCT-30 station is a turret solution designed for 25-50 mm cannons mounted on wheeled or tracked armoured vehicles. This 21st Century Turret with low signature and reduced weight provides increased mobility and survivability. The MCT-30 RWS can be fitted with co-axial machine gun, blue force tracker,, active protection systems and commanders independent Remote Weapon Station.

This is the same 30mm Mk44 turret being tested for LAV III/Stryker. From Norway's Kongsberg Defence Systems.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 9:46:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2014 9:49:47 AM EST by CrazedCat]

i cant hot link it but here is the turret on the Striker .

Me likey


Not linking the Specific page but Militaryphotos.net has beaten arfcom to this News i know Shocking aint it.

4 pages already
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 9:51:11 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CrazedCat:

i cant hot link it but here is the turret on the Striker .

Me likey


Not linking the Specific page but Militaryphotos.net has beaten arfcom to this News i know Shocking aint it.

4 pages already
View Quote


Don't worry this thread won't even go one page. But a thread about stolen trash cans.......
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 9:53:27 AM EST
So they went from a 2 man turret to an unmanned turret and it is still practically the same size?

Color me not impressed.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 9:53:49 AM EST
I like it. We need a bigger gun in the fight. So it's not meant to climb the mountains of Afghanistan, it is well suited for a battle in an ISIL like conflict.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:02:42 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By notso:
So they went from a 2 man turret to an unmanned turret and it is still practically the same size?

Color me not impressed.
View Quote


No TOW either.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:03:19 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OnlytheTip:
I like it. We need a bigger gun in the fight. So it's not meant to climb the mountains of Afghanistan, it is well suited for a battle in an ISIL like conflict.
View Quote


it can go up to 50 MM per what i have read so far but 30 mm is more pratical already in inventory.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:03:24 AM EST
I'm sorry, you want me to put a sign over it saying I'm not a tank?
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:11:47 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
I'm sorry, you want me to put a sign over it saying I'm not a tank?
View Quote


It's RHA equivalent is already more than a WWII Tiger tank.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:13:46 AM EST
But, but, how is one going to clear feeder malfunctions or clear out the plenum chamber?
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:17:33 AM EST
I have nothing nice to say, so...........
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:22:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2014 10:23:18 AM EST by BobRoberts]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By notso:
So they went from a 2 man turret to an unmanned turret and it is still practically the same size?

Color me not impressed.
View Quote


Its the space cleared in the interior that's important. My guess a tow will be added as its a proven system already.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:23:41 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BobRoberts:


Its the space cleared in the interior that's important.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BobRoberts:
Originally Posted By notso:
So they went from a 2 man turret to an unmanned turret and it is still practically the same size?

Color me not impressed.


Its the space cleared in the interior that's important.

Good point- so what is the Army going to do with that space?
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:24:11 AM EST
Can we turn the old ones into border defense emplacements?
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:30:02 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
But, but, how is one going to clear feeder malfunctions or clear out the plenum chamber?
View Quote


From the crew compartment? Hope you have small hands.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:30:12 AM EST
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:30:42 AM EST
just slap on the badass 40mm uparmored turret from the CV9040c and be done with it



Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:31:07 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TAP:

Good point- so what is the Army going to do with that space?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TAP:
Originally Posted By BobRoberts:
Originally Posted By notso:
So they went from a 2 man turret to an unmanned turret and it is still practically the same size?

Color me not impressed.


Its the space cleared in the interior that's important.

Good point- so what is the Army going to do with that space?


9 man squads in the back?
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:32:47 AM EST
the MK44 shoots a bigger 30mm cartridge (30x173) than your standard 30mm (30x113)
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:32:54 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.
View Quote


Are there a lot of documented cases of Brads not being able to kill things because the gun wasn't big enough?
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:33:10 AM EST
Franco-Russian Atom has much great 57mm gun:



Supposedly the gun to be used on a variety of Russian 'Armata' vehicles.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:33:42 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.
View Quote


Ah yes, our resident military expert shows.

You're like clockwork, popping up in EVERY military thread.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:34:28 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:


Are there a lot of documented cases of Brads not being able to kill things because the gun wasn't big enough?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.


Are there a lot of documented cases of Brads not being able to kill things because the gun wasn't big enough?


They were penning the sides and rear of T-72s in ODS with 25mm...
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:35:11 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:


Are there a lot of documented cases of Brads not being able to kill things because the gun wasn't big enough?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.


Are there a lot of documented cases of Brads not being able to kill things because the gun wasn't big enough?

Why should they wait for adversaries armor to outclass their weapon systems? Look at what European armored vehicle manufacturers are doing. They are not waiting.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:35:41 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.
View Quote

Do you even DU, bro?
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:35:56 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GrahamD:


Ah yes, our resident military expert shows.

You're like clockwork, popping up in EVERY military thread.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GrahamD:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.


Ah yes, our resident military expert shows.

You're like clockwork, popping up in EVERY military thread.

Like much of the membership of this board, military topics interests me.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:36:48 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By crurifragium:


It's RHA equivalent is already more than a WWII Tiger tank.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By crurifragium:
Originally Posted By The_Evil_One:
I'm sorry, you want me to put a sign over it saying I'm not a tank?


It's RHA equivalent is already more than a WWII Tiger tank.


I was quoting pentagon wars.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:37:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2014 10:37:51 AM EST by Miles_Urbanus]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.
View Quote


Declaring the whole US Army incompetent is quite a statement. What is your example of a competent military force?
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:38:35 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:

Why should they wait for adversaries armor to outclass their weapon systems? Look at what European armored vehicle manufacturers are doing. They are not waiting.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.


Are there a lot of documented cases of Brads not being able to kill things because the gun wasn't big enough?

Why should they wait for adversaries armor to outclass their weapon systems? Look at what European armored vehicle manufacturers are doing. They are not waiting.

We request a citation from you showing us your sources which say the 25mm was failing to kill things.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:38:59 AM EST
Maybe a 90mm gun?

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OnlytheTip:
I like it. We need a bigger gun in the fight. So it's not meant to climb the mountains of Afghanistan, it is well suited for a battle in an ISIL like conflict.
View Quote

Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:39:24 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:


Declaring the whole US Army incompetent is quite a statement. What is your example of a competent military force?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.


Declaring the whole US Army incompetent is quite a statement. What is your example of a competent military force?
The Norwegian Navy is better then the US Navy too according to him.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:39:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2014 10:40:17 AM EST by DeltaElite777]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:

Why should they wait for adversaries armor to outclass their weapon systems? Look at what European armored vehicle manufacturers are doing. They are not waiting.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.


Are there a lot of documented cases of Brads not being able to kill things because the gun wasn't big enough?

Why should they wait for adversaries armor to outclass their weapon systems? Look at what European armored vehicle manufacturers are doing. They are not waiting.


The 25mm is going (and has killed) to kill the ever loving fuck out of any ground vehicle short of an MBT. And you aren't supposed to be engaging those with an IFV. And you have the TOW....

I would like to see the gun upgraded, but to a variable-RoF GAU 22 (and more ammo) that could be used against low-flying aerial threats as well as ground targets.

Bigger guns mean bigger ammo... which means less ammo. Which is pretty much always bad.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:40:27 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bluewaterheaven:

We request a citation from you showing us your sources which say the 25mm was failing to kill things.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bluewaterheaven:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.


Are there a lot of documented cases of Brads not being able to kill things because the gun wasn't big enough?

Why should they wait for adversaries armor to outclass their weapon systems? Look at what European armored vehicle manufacturers are doing. They are not waiting.

We request a citation from you showing us your sources which say the 25mm was failing to kill things.

You suffer from poor reading comprehension. I did not claim 25mm was failing to kill things. I said it was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle, especially one that is billed as an "infrantry" fighting vehicle. Larger caliber bores give more flexibility in munition options. Even 30mm may not be enough. Thirty-five to 40mm would be preferable.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:40:38 AM EST
I don't have a link and I could be wrong but I think I remember reading that the Bradleys accounted for more Iraq tank kills during the Iraq invasion than the Abrams.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:41:00 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bluewaterheaven:
The Norwegian Navy is better then the US Navy too according to him.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bluewaterheaven:
Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.


Declaring the whole US Army incompetent is quite a statement. What is your example of a competent military force?
The Norwegian Navy is better then the US Navy too according to him.

I never made that claim. Do read for comprehension.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:42:13 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:


You suffer from poor reading comprehension. I did not claim 25mm was failing to kill things. I said it was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle, especially one that is billed as an "infrantry" fighting vehicle. Larger caliber bores give more flexibility in munition options. Even 30mm may not be enough. Thirty-five to 40mm would be preferable.
View Quote


Preferable for what? And being able to shoot 87 different kids of ammo doesn't do you much good when you can only carry 60 rounds.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:43:58 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Do you even DU, bro?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.

Do you even DU, bro?


isnt the main knock about the 25mm that its too small to have enough HE to be effective against structures and targets inside structures?
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:50:33 AM EST
The 25mm is plenty for how the IFV is meant to be used. First off, that TOW is meant for defense. These aren't tank hunters, they're a battle field taxi that converts to a awesome, and mobile, support by fire position.

They were designed to poop out grunts from the cover of a hill or building, and then move to bring down hell on the objective while the grunts maneuver. That's why it carries only 70 KE rounds in the ready box. Those are the "oh shit, a bmp" rounds.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:52:56 AM EST
Cue BFV design committee video
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:53:18 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:


Preferable for what? And being able to shoot 87 different kids of ammo doesn't do you much good when you can only carry 60 rounds.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:


You suffer from poor reading comprehension. I did not claim 25mm was failing to kill things. I said it was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle, especially one that is billed as an "infrantry" fighting vehicle. Larger caliber bores give more flexibility in munition options. Even 30mm may not be enough. Thirty-five to 40mm would be preferable.


Preferable for what? And being able to shoot 87 different kids of ammo doesn't do you much good when you can only carry 60 rounds.

You should educate yourself on what the Europeans are doing. It is much more innovative than what the U.S. Army is doing.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:55:51 AM EST
M919 will kill anything short of a T80/90. Even then volley firing (you know, proper fire distribution and control measures) by a platoon in contact will rain hell upon those.

Forget about the Javeline equipped dismounts it will shit out the back.

Fuck the TOW 2B AERO with it's lacking 4200m range.

It's a system, the sum of it's parts is what makes it so lethal.

In regards to the OP; what happens during misfire procedure? Yes I know, the M242 has absolute hang fire protection; that being said, joe is joe, I can point to countless hours on the range where joe forgets to release tension. Yeah, it will shoot 2 or 3 rounds before all hell breaks loose then the yellow flag goes up, rinse and repeat.

I'm just curious as to how malfunctions etc will work. Having a trained proficient crew in the turrent solves most of the problems without me having to get in there. If it's unmanned and the guys in back are not proficient with the gun, it can lead to a bad day.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 10:55:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2014 10:57:04 AM EST by JohnnyCarcinogen]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mcantu:


isnt the main knock about the 25mm that its too small to have enough HE to be effective against structures and targets inside structures?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mcantu:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.

Do you even DU, bro?


isnt the main knock about the 25mm that its too small to have enough HE to be effective against structures and targets inside structures?

As a goon with 2 trips to Iraq as a Bradley guy, I can a sure you, there is no gripe about the weapons systems, other than we're not allowed to use them as much as we'd like other than the coax.

KE - lightly armored vehicles
HE - unarmored vehicles, troops in buildings, buildings, troops in open beyond 900 meters
Coax - troops <90
TOW - fortified positions, tanks
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 11:02:38 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.
View Quote
Show one documented incident where the M242 has failed to destroy any target or shut the fuck up.


Link Posted: 9/24/2014 11:04:27 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:

You should educate yourself on what the Europeans are doing. It is much more innovative than what the U.S. Army is doing.
View Quote


Getting the US to bear the brunt of their defense needs? Yeah, that's pretty innovative, I'll give you that.
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 11:05:28 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ElevenBravo87:
Show one documented incident where the M242 has failed to destroy any target or shut the fuck up.


View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ElevenBravo87:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.
Show one documented incident where the M242 has failed to destroy any target or shut the fuck up.





Based on his experience......







Link Posted: 9/24/2014 11:05:36 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By crurifragium:


They were penning the sides and rear of T-72s in ODS with 25mm...
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By crurifragium:
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.


Are there a lot of documented cases of Brads not being able to kill things because the gun wasn't big enough?


They were penning the sides and rear of T-72s in ODS with 25mm...
Yes we did.....M791 for the fucking win

Link Posted: 9/24/2014 11:08:02 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:


Declaring the whole US Army incompetent is quite a statement. What is your example of a competent military force?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.


Declaring the whole US Army incompetent is quite a statement. What is your example of a competent military force?

Russia, dude, they're AWESOME!!!

Nick
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 11:08:54 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

As a goon with 2 trips to Iraq as a Bradley guy, I can a sure you, there is no gripe about the weapons systems, other than we're not allowed to use them as much as we'd like other than the coax.

KE - lightly armored vehicles
HE - unarmored vehicles, troops in buildings, buildings, troops in open beyond 900 meters
Coax - troops <90
TOW - fortified positions, tanks
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Originally Posted By mcantu:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.

Do you even DU, bro?


isnt the main knock about the 25mm that its too small to have enough HE to be effective against structures and targets inside structures?

As a goon with 2 trips to Iraq as a Bradley guy, I can a sure you, there is no gripe about the weapons systems, other than we're not allowed to use them as much as we'd like other than the coax.

KE - lightly armored vehicles
HE - unarmored vehicles, troops in buildings, buildings, troops in open beyond 900 meters
Coax - troops <90
TOW - fortified positions, tanks


what about against newer IFVs with armor rated to protect from up to 30mm AP rounds?
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 11:09:06 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 11:09:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2014 11:14:09 AM EST by Commando_Guy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Flash66:
I don't have a link and I could be wrong but I think I remember reading that the Bradleys accounted for more Iraq tank kills during the Iraq invasion than the Abrams.
View Quote

You take that that shit right out of here!
IFV killing MBT is not enough, man!
They have to ULTRAKILL them!!!!

Nick
Link Posted: 9/24/2014 11:10:43 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ElevenBravo87:
Yes we did.....M791 for the fucking win

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ElevenBravo87:
Originally Posted By crurifragium:
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
Originally Posted By shoeh8ter:
About time the incompetent U.S. Army realized a 25mm was not enough for an armored fighting vehicle.


Are there a lot of documented cases of Brads not being able to kill things because the gun wasn't big enough?


They were penning the sides and rear of T-72s in ODS with 25mm...
Yes we did.....M791 for the fucking win



there were also some instances where 25mm DU rounds penetrated the rear turret and engine compartments of M1A1s
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 8
Top Top