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Posted: 9/8/2004 10:50:30 AM EST
Issue Date: September 13, 2004

Army shifts reserve role, closely mirrors Corps

By Christian Lowe
Times staff writer

First, it borrowed the Corps’ “Every Marine a rifleman” ethos, declaring that “every soldier” should be a rifleman first.

Then, it took and modified the Corps’ digital design for its cammies.

Now, it appears the Army wants its National Guard forces to operate more like the Marine Corps Reserve.

Facing increasing stress on Guard and reserve forces, Guard officials are reorganizing their citizen-soldiers to allow for a high mobilization tempo without burning them out or leaving a state governor high and dry if disaster strikes. And that’s where the Army is again taking a page from the Corps’ book.

This year, the Army began training and equipping its reserve-component forces to seamlessly assimilate into brigade-size units throughout the active-duty force.

In the past, entire reserve units deployed as one and operated as a component of a larger, division-size force. Now, a single battalion or even company-size unit may readily plug into an active brigade and deploy to a war zone without a hitch.

“What I’ve committed to is taking all of our brigades and moving them to exactly the same shape, size, organization [and] equipment as the active brigades,” said Army Lt. Gen. Steven Blum, head of the Army and Air National Guard.

Though the Corps does not contribute to America’s state militias as the Air and Army National Guard do, its small size has forced the organization to mirror the active duty in almost every way.

Thus, a Reserve AH-1W Super Cobra helicopter squadron based in Atlanta can plug in effortlessly with the active-duty 2nd Battalion, 8th Marines, in Afghanistan — or even an active-duty Army unit, if necessary.

The Army already has done that with some of its Guard units. Soldiers with the Florida National Guard’s 124th Infantry Regiment teamed up with active-duty Special Forces troops and operated with them throughout much of the Iraq war as prison security and quick-reaction forces.

The Army also is mirroring the Corps by training 12 units to respond to potential chemical, biological or radiological attacks in the United States.

Blum sent the teams this year to the headquarters of the Corps’ Chemical Biological Incident Response Force in Indian Head, Md., where they learned how to deal with mass casualties during a possible domestic attack.

Though CBIRF is an active-duty unit — part of the 4th Marine Expeditionary Brigade (Anti-Terrorism) — it has been deployed several times for domestic chemical attacks.

CBIRF teams deployed to Capitol Hill in fall 2001 after letters contaminated with anthrax were found in several Senate offices.

The chemical warriors again deployed in February when traces of the deadly chemical ricin turned up in a Senate office.

The Army has a similar team in its Guard forces to take some of the strain off of the Corps’ CBIRF and to provide relief to local law enforcement and medical personnel in the event of a domestic terrorist attack.

“When we trained at Indian Head with the CBIRF and had them certify our packages, we had never thought about being a reserve of the Marine CBIRF unit, but that’s what we end up being,” Blum said. “Because now, they have 12 National Guard packages that can back up the two that exist on active duty in the Marine Corps.”

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story.php?f=1-MARINEPAPER-334324.php
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 10:55:13 AM EST
why didn't they tell me that?

damn brass
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 11:03:07 AM EST
I'm flattered.


Army 2000: "We don't NEED no stinking Marine Corps!".

Army 2004: "We need to be more like the Marine Corps!".

Here Grasshopper, snatch pebble from hand.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 11:04:34 AM EST
OOH-FUCKING-RAH!

Link Posted: 9/8/2004 11:05:49 AM EST
They can TRY all they want, but they'll NEVER be MARINES!!
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 1:45:54 PM EST
This was written by the Marine Corps Times, so I'll take it for the load of shit that it is.

Nowhere does any Army authority say that they're mimicking the USMC, that's just the image the USMC wants to push. It's a fact of the current mission that heavy warfare is being displaced by LIC and other unconventional actions, not by any desire to be USMC wannabees.

As for the Guard and Reserve changes, the USMC has NEVER put that kind of deployment strains on their reserve forces that have been placed on USAR and USANG units/soldiers. Trying to make it easier to mobilize reserve forces that outnumber the entire USMC is not playing copycat.

.
Now all you Jarheads can turn in your:
M1 Abrams tanks.
AH-1 cobras (sorry)
UH-1 (yep)
And the list goes on.

You can pick up the fucking Strykers anytime.

Oh, and I guess that the DET-1 bullshit must be an attempt by the USMC to copy US Army Special Forces, huh?
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 1:52:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
This was written by the Marine Corps Times, so I'll take it for the load of shit that it is.

Nowhere does any Army authority say that they're mimicking the USMC, that's just the image the USMC wants to push. It's a fact of the current mission that heavy warfare is being displaced by LIC and other unconventional actions, not by any desire to be USMC wannabees.

As for the Guard and Reserve changes, the USMC has NEVER put that kind of deployment strains on their reserve forces that have been placed on USAR and USANG units/soldiers. Trying to make it easier to mobilize reserve forces that outnumber the entire USMC is not playing copycat.

.
Now all you Jarheads can turn in your:
M1 Abrams tanks.
AH-1 cobras (sorry)
UH-1 (yep)
And the list goes on.

You can pick up the fucking Strykers anytime.

Oh, and I guess that the DET-1 bullshit must be an attempt by the USMC to copy US Army Special Forces, huh?



Nope, just improving in past mistakes. Not that Marines are perfect, we still get our ankles wet trying to walk on water.

Mike
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 1:55:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
This was written by the Marine Corps Times, so I'll take it for the load of shit that it is.

Nowhere does any Army authority say that they're mimicking the USMC, that's just the image the USMC wants to push. It's a fact of the current mission that heavy warfare is being displaced by LIC and other unconventional actions, not by any desire to be USMC wannabees.

As for the Guard and Reserve changes, the USMC has NEVER put that kind of deployment strains on their reserve forces that have been placed on USAR and USANG units/soldiers. Trying to make it easier to mobilize reserve forces that outnumber the entire USMC is not playing copycat.

.
Now all you Jarheads can turn in your:
M1 Abrams tanks.
AH-1 cobras (sorry)
UH-1 (yep)
And the list goes on.

You can pick up the fucking Strykers anytime.

Oh, and I guess that the DET-1 bullshit must be an attempt by the USMC to copy US Army Special Forces, huh?



Of course we are going to let the Army/Navy/Air Force spend THEIR dollars on improved weapons systems. The fact is, the ETHOS of the US Army has become VERY similar the Marine Corps' over the past few years. Ya'll are starting to THINK more like us...

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 1:56:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
This was written by the Marine Corps Times, so I'll take it for the load of shit that it is.

Nowhere does any Army authority say that they're mimicking the USMC, that's just the image the USMC wants to push. It's a fact of the current mission that heavy warfare is being displaced by LIC and other unconventional actions, not by any desire to be USMC wannabees.

As for the Guard and Reserve changes, the USMC has NEVER put that kind of deployment strains on their reserve forces that have been placed on USAR and USANG units/soldiers. Trying to make it easier to mobilize reserve forces that outnumber the entire USMC is not playing copycat.

.
Now all you Jarheads can turn in your:
M1 Abrams tanks.
AH-1 cobras (sorry)
UH-1 (yep)
And the list goes on.

You can pick up the fucking Strykers anytime.

Oh, and I guess that the DET-1 bullshit must be an attempt by the USMC to copy US Army Special Forces, huh?



The MC times has no connection with the Marine Corps, they are published by the same people who publish the Army, AF and Navy times. But like all things that are in the Times, a good indicator that it is false, is that it is published there.


Det-1 is actually somewhat mimicing the SEALs, however with a intel and fire support coordination capability.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 1:57:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2004 2:01:21 PM EST by joker581]

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

You can pick up the fucking Strykers anytime.


We don't need the Strykers. We have our LAVs. Those are alot like the Stryker. I wonder why.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 2:05:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 2:11:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By kpel308:
We've had the LAV-25, the precursor to the Stryker, for quite awhile now. Like 20 years!

Hey, if you serve, do so proudly, and I'll guarantee that I'd buy you a beer should I ever meet you. If you don't think your outfit is the best, then you didn't join the right service!

BTW: I'm going to be up to my ears in Doggies. I'm leaving for Eastern Europe to do force protection for a US Army facility



Yes, I know the LAV predated the Stryker. And I don't have anything other than general complaints (wheels, height, weight, armor) against it. The USMC has done a heck of a job with the LAV, but that's because it fits their mission. Me, I prefere the Bradley, hands down.

Good luck to ya in Eastern Europe. Everybody is doing a great job for our country.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 2:13:35 PM EST
BTW, if the Army is copying "The Corps", then why are so many Jarheads being spotted at US Army schools?

Artillery
Armor
Chemica­l Corps
Airborne
War College
etcetera, etcetera, etcetera ....
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 2:25:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2004 2:29:09 PM EST by STLRN]

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
BTW, if the Army is copying "The Corps", then why are so many Jarheads being spotted at US Army schools?

Artillery
Armor
Chemica­l Corps
Airborne
War College
etcetera, etcetera, etcetera ....



It's called cost. For example the FA school, something I quite familiar with, for an officer to go through the school it cost 30,000 dollars, since the majority of the instructors in the Gunnery and Fire Support Depts. are provided by the Marine Corps we don't pay, same with our Canoneers' Course, the army covers the cost of ammo, so to run our own schools would cost us allot of money.

Do you remember Goldwater-Nickles that specified that joint schools would be used when possible, its a purple world after all.

You also got to ask yourself why my peers in FSCAOD all thought its was considered more prestigious to go to AWS and USMC Command and Staff vice the standard CCC and CGSC that everyone else was going to?
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 3:23:15 PM EST
why does the marines use liquid soap?

­

<­BR>





It takes longer to pick up
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 3:31:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2004 3:32:51 PM EST by Freakzilla]
Speaking of Marines,

I went to Airborne school with two Marines, when we met at the airport they were downright RUDE ASSES to us (Army), acting like tough shit,

Turns out one was a pouge (the fatass fell out of a couple runs at Airborne school, should have been dropped) and the other was a panzy.



This is not to say they are all bad, I had a Marine instructor (Gunny SGT) that was cool as hell, I'm just saying there is no need for the anti-Army brainwashing the DIs do.

I also trained with some SEALS, and they were the polar opposite of the Marines, quiet professionals with nothing to prove.

Just an observation
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 4:12:29 PM EST
The bantering back and forth between the services has benn going on since time immemorial. But when the chips are down, which of us would ask or care which service before coming to the aid of a fellow warrior?

Mike
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 4:29:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Now all you Jarheads can turn in your:
M1 Abrams tanks.
AH-1 cobras (sorry)
UH-1 (yep)
And the list goes on.



And they can still win a war with a rifle and a bayonet.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 6:00:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/8/2004 6:00:56 PM EST by TheAmaazingCarl]
Soldiers don't actually want to be Marines, just like Marines


by that I mean competent, but without all the pesky training and discipline
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 9:10:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Freakzilla:

I also trained with some SEALS, and they were the polar opposite of the Marines, quiet professionals with nothing to prove.




You, my friend, have never had to be stationed with 'em for two years and do law enforcement around 'em. When they drink too much (and many do), they think they're above the law (moreso than soldiers, regular sailors, airmen, and Marines). I've had to crack more than a few of their heads and get 'em into cuffs to take 'em in. Why? They like to bite ears off and rip off the testicles of their fellow SEALs when in bar fights. They wear those damned UDT shorts COMMANDO, and they reach right up and grab a hold. I saw this in Subic Bay on more than one occasion. There's nothing like doing a FOD walk for a nut in a grimy Filipino bar at 1 a.m.

I learned from first-hand experience that SEALs are not super-human. They're highly trained professionals, but even Marine MP's and Navy MA's can take 'em down when/if necessary. That's what WE were trained to do well. They do their UDT stuff... we take people to jail and try to keep the streets safe.

As for one service being better than the other, they all have their purpose, and I respect each and every one of our servicemen and women for what they do for us, from the admin clerk to the grunt on the front lines. Every man/woman has their place, and if they're in uniform, OOH-FUCKING-RAH! Each service has their "ten percenters," and for the guy that had a bad experience with the Marines at the airport, you must have run into two of those. I can innundate the board with stories of my run-ins with the dregs of the service... I was an MP for twelve years, and my job was to deal with the turds all day every day, but I didn't for a minute believe that any one service had the corner on the shitbird market. Each service has 'em, and each service is 90% good.

Semper Fi to all my brothers and sisters in the service of their country! God bless you all!!!

Link Posted: 9/9/2004 1:32:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/9/2004 1:34:59 AM EST by Ross]
Actually the Army wants the National Guard to operate more like the Army Reserve rather than the Marine Reserve. Unlike the USMC, the Army has two separate RC services, and they're governed by different policies and laws. The USAR units have always been able to plug in at a smaller unit level. Most USAR units are battalion and smaller. So the idea that this is somehow new to the Army and is a future imitation of the Marine Reserve is absurd. The Army has been doing business with the USAR the same as Marine Corps has with the USMCR for just as long and just as effectively.

The problem is with the National Guard (or actually the Army's inability to manage it properly). Due to the unique state mission of the NG (which there is no Marine Corps counterpart) and laws governing their use, the Army has to call up whole units through federalization. Also because combat arms type units were the most useful in the NG, that's where most of the combat units in the reserve components are. Most of the support and logistic units are in the USAR, and they go to war along side the active Army fine. However, if combat arms reinforcements are requried from outside the active Army, it generally has to come from the NG.

The National Guard has provided small units to plug-in to active units in the past, so this is nothing really new either. One of our rifle companies from VANG went to Kosovo quite a few years ago as a plug-in, so the idea that the NG is only going to be able to do this in the future by imitating the Marine Corps is false.

What's not false is that the National Guard needs to be managed better by the Dept of the Army. The USAF has done a good job at handling it's two reserve component services (the USAF is the only other service with a "National Guard"), and really it's very seamless. The Army has never done a good job at integrating, for many reasons, but is now starting to do it.

The Army is switching to brigade sized units from divisions as it's main fighting unit. This move to integrate the NG units into brigades is just a reflection of this move. It's certainly not an imitation of the Marine Corps.

As for the NBC teams, this has been the plan since the invention of the Office of Homeland Security. This is also a reflection upon the way the military does business with the two services. When the threat was small-scale, the USMC could handle it. Now that the threat is large, the Army takes a larger part of the mission because of resources. Since the USMC was already trained and experienced in the mission, it only makes sense to go with their system. I would doubt seriously that the USMC wants to get into the business of equipping a dozen CBIRF's just for use in the USA, anymore than they want to take over air-defense of CONUS.

While the article is great spin, like most of the "XX Times" articles, they aren't exactly the most detailed.

Ross
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 2:44:03 AM EST
immitation is the sincerest form of flatery. Soldiers always treat us like dogshit but then they want to be like us. its a cultural thing boys. you steal the motto's, the uniform and the tactics but until you change the army basic training system you will not have the culture that breeds warriors. im not disparaging Army combat arms, they always seem good to go. but your average Marine cook or generator mechanic has had 5 weeks of infantry training and can fill a slot on a patrol without being a major liability.

Edge767 is spot on correct. i laugh everytime i hear the typical post full of "SEAL worship"
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 2:44:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ross:
While the article is great spin, like most of the "XX Times" articles, they aren't exactly the most detailed.

Ross



As always Ross your the voice of reason.
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