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Posted: 8/25/2004 12:29:45 PM EST
Shipped to private individuals & received through local FFL for years through UPS. Today I go to ship a firearm out to an out-of-State FFL and they refuse to ship it. Maybe I've been completely in the dark here, but how DOES one ship a firearm to an FFL out of State?

UPS policy: "Firearms will be transported only between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors, as defined in the United States Gun Control Act of 1968."
www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/prepare/guidelines/firearms.html
The key word is between - they will not ship either way unless they have an FFL on both individuals.

Ironically, the store had 2 other people trying to ship firearms at the same time (you have to love Virginia - every one of us had a 45 on our hip) and they were surprised by the policy as well. Fed-Ex seems pretty anti-gun, and last time I took my M1S90 to the US Postal Service to return it to Benelli they almost had me arrested (I'm thinking they're not a good route, either).

So how do you send a firearm to an out-of-State FFL to legally transfer a firearm to someone out of State? Thanks!

Black Fox
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:32:35 PM EST
I just use the "online" ship option where they schedule a pickup at your home or work. You pay for it online, you print out the address label yourself and they pick it up from you the next day (or a day you choose), and don't EVER ask what's in it. The UPS guy comes and just takes the package. I use it all the time and it works great. It's also the recommended way to ship firearms according to the 1-800-PICK-UPS when I called.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:35:23 PM EST
You go to your local FFL holder and have him ship it for you. Some charge a transfer fee for this.

MT
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:35:57 PM EST
I'll be damned!

It really says just that...It must be new. I always used the BBB to ship pistols! And I used to have the pick-up at my home too.

Holy Sheet. That will add another 20 bucks to the process for the sending FFL.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:37:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:38:36 PM EST
I know you can ship a rifle via USPS to a dealer, but not a handgun. A lot of the people that work at the UPS stores and such usually dont know shit about the real policy and just hear the word gun and freak out.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:39:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By jtb33:
I just use the "online" ship option where they schedule a pickup at your home or work. You pay for it online, you print out the address label yourself and they pick it up from you the next day (or a day you choose), and don't EVER ask what's in it. The UPS guy comes and just takes the package. I use it all the time and it works great. It's also the recommended way to ship firearms according to the 1-800-PICK-UPS when I called.



Unfortunately, under these new regs (which they claim have been in place for some time) only FFLs can do this. They also say they have to have a copy of your FFL to ship, so the "I'm a FFL, really!" thing doesn't look like it will work. I'm glad I'm not just behind the times. This seems like a big deal....

Black Fox
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:40:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By repub18:
I know you can ship a rifle via USPS to a dealer, but not a handgun. A lot of the people that work at the UPS stores and such usually dont know shit about the real policy and just hear the word gun and freak out.



Not the case - only BETWEEN dealers, not private person to an FFL. That's the whole problem!

Black Fox
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:42:32 PM EST
Spend $30 and get a C&R. It will pay for itself in no time if for nothing else than the convenience of shipping for firearm.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:45:48 PM EST
If you do the online shipping and pickup, there's no option (even if you buy additional insurance) to even state what is in the package, and the drivers that pick it up do not ask anything, nor do you sign anything. Try it - what have you got to lose?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:54:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By jtb33:
If you do the online shipping and pickup, there's no option (even if you buy additional insurance) to even state what is in the package, and the drivers that pick it up do not ask anything, nor do you sign anything. Try it - what have you got to lose?



Besides being accused of being a slow-shipper, nothing I guess. I'm just really surprised that UPS, Fed-Ex and UPS no longer support the legal transfer of a firearm through an FFL! (a single one, not two)

We may find temporary ways to circumvent their policy, but that's just a matter of time and doesn't solve the root problem. Pardon my ignorance, but would an FFL be risking anything by accepting a firearm from you and taking it to the UPS center without logging it into their books?

Black Fox
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:05:19 PM EST
So if I understand the NEW POLICY, you can ship a firearm as long as you have a FFL, even a C&R license, which is FFL, license to COLLECT.....

Seems like a good $30 investment......glad I have one.....
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:05:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:09:54 PM EST
If a FFL has a prior agreement with USPS, they can ship handguns....I did it once through Kiesler's ..

They asked me...which way you want to ship..UPS, Fed-Ex or Postal....I did a double take..I asked and they said, "We have an agreement with the Postal Service, so we can ship handguns..."

I did..cost me $15 to do it..
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:10:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By brasspile:
This is different than their FAQ used in the Bear Pit argument....

I need to get the wording. They must have updated it.



YUP, Looks like they changed it....

Now I know why the lady wanted a copy of my C&R the last time I shipped out a rifle, before it was a none issue, but that time, she would not budge on the matter.......
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:11:41 PM EST
Use FEDEX. They'll ship truck bombs without a single question.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:15:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 1:21:39 PM EST by Ridge]
I got looking for another option, and I wondered about DHL (you know the new kid in town).

They won't even ship firearms, firearms parts, ammunition, or even porn.

So forget DHL.

I like fedex so far.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:26:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:30:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By BlackFox:

Originally Posted By repub18:
I know you can ship a rifle via USPS to a dealer, but not a handgun. A lot of the people that work at the UPS stores and such usually dont know shit about the real policy and just hear the word gun and freak out.



Not the case - only BETWEEN dealers, not private person to an FFL. That's the whole problem!

Black Fox




then go to your local dealer and ask them to ship it, or just go into the store and ship it dont tell them its a firearm
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:40:39 PM EST
If you read further in their Regs, UPS will also not honor their insurance if the firearm is not shipped FFL to FFL. I use FedEx exclusively.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:51:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By DOA:
If you read further in their Regs, UPS will also not honor their insurance if the firearm is not shipped FFL to FFL. I use FedEx exclusively.



So.... You ship a firearm via ups, label it "Machine parts" and insure it for the full value. If it is then comes up missing, and you try ot collect, how ill they know what was in the box? If they did then they had damm well better know where it is.

CH
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 2:14:49 PM EST
Every time I have shipped to an FFL I simply tell UPS I'm sending it "for repairs." Has worked every time for me.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 2:22:58 PM EST
Well, since according to SteyerAug, nobody but him is an FFL, I am not really an FFL. But, it is perfectly legal for a non-FFL to ship to an FFL. You may be encountering an anti-gun UPS hub. Very common.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 2:32:25 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 2:44:10 PM EST
You can ship long guns by ground and hand guns overnight from UPS, but you have to do it from a commercial location like their central warehouse. The UPS stores like Mail Boxes Etc. won't let you do it. Fed ex will also ship guns from their commercial locations but they require long guns to be shipped overnight which is absurdly expensive ($100-$200).
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 2:53:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 2:54:57 PM EST by rkbar15]
The website FAQ is incorrect. Their published Tariff which they are required to operate under says:

United Parcel Service, Inc. (a New York corporation) MC-116200
United Parcel Service, Inc. (an Ohio corporation) MC-115495
United Parcel Service Canada Ltd. MC-186275
GENERAL TARIFF CONTAINING THE
CLASSIFICATIONS, RULES AND PRACTICES
FOR THE TRANSPORTATION OF PROPERTY

EFFECTIVE: July 12, 2004
Issued By:
OFFICE OF GENERAL COUNSEL
UNITED PARCEL SERVICE, INC.
55 Glenlake Parkway, NE
Atlanta, Georgia 30328

425
FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

Firearms will be transported between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers and licensed collectors, as defined in the United States Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618, enacted October 22, 1968), as amended by the Firearms Owners' Protection Act (P.L. 99-308, approved May 19, 1986, and a subsequent amendment thereto, P.L. 99-360, approved July 8, 1986) (“the Acts”), law enforcement agencies of the United States or of any department or agency thereof, and law enforcement agencies of any State or any department, agency or political subdivision thereof, and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law and when such shipment complies with all applicable federal, state and local laws. The shipper must affix a UPS label, requesting an adult signature upon delivery, to each package containing a firearm. Adult means a person 21 years of age or older. Handguns, as defined by the Acts, will only be accepted for transportation via UPS Next Day Air Services, but will not be accepted for transportation via UPS Drop Boxes, Internet Shipping, or in response to a request for On-Call Pickup Service. Firearms, including handguns, will not be accepted when presented for shipment at a UPS Authorized Shipping Outlet or a UPS Commercial Counter. Small arms ammunition, as defined in 49 C.F.R. § 173.59, will be
transported only when packaged and labeled in compliance with 49 C.F.R. § 172.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:04:05 PM EST
My local Pack and mail stopped shipping firearms a while back.
(they are authorized Fedex and UPS dealers too )

But FEDEX will ship guns at their office!

www.fedex.com/us/services/express/termsandconditions/us/firearms.html
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:04:23 PM EST
I refuse to ship anything via UPS now. Tried to ship an airsoft pistol I needed to get rid of (decided to give up the toys, and work on building an AR). The guy asked what it was, and I was honest with him.

"It's an airpistol," I said.

"OH! We won't ship that."

"Why not? Liability reasons, or . . . ?" I said.

"No, just because of what 'it' is."

"Oh, well, I didn't know that. Guess I'll be shpping it with USPS then."

Screw 'em. Bunch of box kickers anyway (with the exception of a very few drivers that I know fairly well). If they won't support my rights, I won't support their business.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:46:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ridge:
I got looking for another option, and I wondered about DHL (you know the new kid in town).
They won't even ship firearms, firearms parts, ammunition, or even porn.

So forget DHL

That's pretty damn stupid, DHL is trying to get a foothold in the US and knock FEX-EX and UPS out of the box. They could have gun owner business if they changed policy. What can you expect from a bunch of Germans.

I like fedex so far.

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:55:19 PM EST
Actually, that airsoft pistol I sold arrived via DHL.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:04:41 PM EST
USPS will ship handguns from an individual to an FFL with NO problem. I have done this and even told the postman at the post office what was in the package. 2- day priority with insurance. No problem. If the receiving FFL is ok with it USPS doesn't care either. This was no more than a month ago.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:15:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 4:31:32 PM EST by rkbar15]
It is illegal under Federal law for a non-licensee to ship a handgun using the USPS. There are some exceptions for law enforcement etc. An FFL is also required to file an affidavit (form 1508) which remains on file with the P.O.

If you are not an FFL or fall under one of the other exceptions handguns must be shipped by a common carrier.

USPS Form 1508

Statement by Shipper of Firearms
(Domestic Mail Manual C024, retain form for 1 year)
City, State, and Zip Code Date

The undersigned is a manufacturer of firearms or bona fide dealer therein, and the parcels presented for mailing herewith are customary trade shipments or other articles for repair or replacement of parts. To the best of my knowledge and belief, the addresses are manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein.

Addresses on Parcels (Use reverse side or attach additional blank sheets if more space is required)

This form can only be used by manufacturers or dealers of firearms.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:19:17 PM EST
FedEx on-line .. only way to go .. not to mention you save money when you do it on-line.


J
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:27:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By bluedogsixty:
USPS will ship handguns from an individual to an FFL with NO problem. I have done this and even told the postman at the post office what was in the package. 2- day priority with insurance. No problem. If the receiving FFL is ok with it USPS doesn't care either. This was no more than a month ago.




You just admitted to breaking a federal law
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:57:32 PM EST
I don't believe that to be true as I had spoken with the FFL BEFORE shipping. He also has on file
my FFL from my end. All is ok. You guys take things and just run with them.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:41:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 5:52:28 PM EST by rkbar15]
C024 Other Restricted or Nonmailable Matter

C000 General Information
C020 Restricted or Nonmailable Articles and Substances

Summary

C024 describes other restricted or nonmailable items (e.g., firearms, sharp instruments, controlled substances, pesticides).
1.0 Pistols, Revolvers, and Other Concealable Firearms
1.1Definitions

The terms used in this standard are defined as follows:

a. Handgun means any pistol, revolver, or other firearm or device the mailing of which is regulated by this standard.

b. Pistol or revolver means a handgun styled to be fired by the use of a single hand and to fire or otherwise expel a projectile by the action of an explosion, spring, or other mechanical action, or air or gas pressure with enough force to be used as a weapon.

c. Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, designed to, or that may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosion, spring, or other mechanical action, or air or gas pressure with enough force to be used as a weapon.

d. Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles.

e. Short-barreled shotgun means a shotgun that has one or more barrels less than 18 inches long. The term short-barreled rifle means a rifle that has one or more barrels less than 16 inches long. These definitions include any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches. A short-barreled shotgun or rifle of greater dimension may be regarded as nonmailable when it has characteristics to allow concealment on the person.

f. Licensed manufacturer and licensed dealer mean, respectively, a manufacturer of firearms or a bona fide dealer of firearms, duly licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury, under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), 18 USC 921, et seq.

g. Antique firearm means any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:

(1) Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.

(2) Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
1.2Handguns

Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as handguns) are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 1.3 and 1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 1.4 and 1.6.

1.3Authorized Persons

Subject to 1.4, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or the government of a state, territory, or district, only when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person’s official duties:

a. Officers of the Army, Coast Guard, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps.

b. Officers of the National Guard or militia of a state, territory, or district.

c. Officers of the United States or of a state, territory, or district, whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.

d. USPS employees authorized by the Chief Postal Inspector.

e. Officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States.

f. Watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a state, territory, or district.

g. Purchasing agent or other designated member of agencies employing officers and employees included in 1.3c through 1.3e.
1.4Affidavit of Addressee

Any person proposing to mail a handgun under 1.3 must file with the postmaster, at the time of mailing, an affidavit signed by the addressee setting forth that the addressee is qualified to receive the firearm under a particular category of 1.3a through 1.3g, and that the firearm is intended for the addressee’s official use. The affidavit must also bear a certificate stating that the firearm is for the official duty use of the addressee, signed by one of the following, as appropriate:

a. For officers of Armed Forces, by the commanding officer.

b. For officers and employees of enforcement agencies, by the head of the agency employing the addressee to perform the official duty with which the firearm is to be used.

c. For watchmen, by the chief clerk of the department, bureau, or independent branch of the government of the United States, the state, the territory, or the district by which the watchman is employed.

d. For the purchasing agent or other designated member of enforcement agencies, by the head of such agency, that the firearm is to be used by an officer or employee included in 1.3c through 1.3e.
1.5Manufacturers and Dealers

Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms and licensed dealers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts.

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:45:55 PM EST
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 83 > Sec. 1715.

Sec. 1715. - Firearms as nonmailable; regulations

Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable and shall not be deposited in or carried by the mails or delivered by any officer or employee of the Postal Service. Such articles may be conveyed in the mails, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe, for use in connection with their official duty, to officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps; to officers of the National Guard or Militia of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District; to officers of the United States or of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitments; to employees of the Postal Service; to officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States; and to watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District. Such articles also may be conveyed in the mails to manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein in customary trade shipments, including such articles for repairs or replacement of parts, from one to the other, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe.

Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail according to the direction thereon, or at any place to which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any pistol, revolver, or firearm declared nonmailable by this section, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:43:34 PM EST
About two weeks ago I shipped a rifle to a dealer in Ohio through a local UPS facility. I declared it as such and they sent it on its way. No problems at all.

FWIW
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:01:27 PM EST
Interesting.....


Funny, last I checked, Federal law said that shipping between owner and repair place (be it FFL or manufactuerer) is LEAGAL.........

Maybe they are afraid of being sued of delivering a weopon to a non licesed person....... ya know lawyers now.... LIABILITY.......

I bet that people have shipped firearms to their (fill in relationship hiere) out of state and did it directly w/out FFL transfer. Completely illegal, but I bet it has happened.......
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:10:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By BlackFox:

Originally Posted By repub18:
I know you can ship a rifle via USPS to a dealer, but not a handgun. A lot of the people that work at the UPS stores and such usually dont know shit about the real policy and just hear the word gun and freak out.



Not the case - only BETWEEN dealers, not private person to an FFL. That's the whole problem!

Black Fox



Not true. Anyone can mail a rifle or shotgun. The between dealers rule is only for handguns. See Section C024 of the Domestic Mail Manual.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:03:54 PM EST
BlackFox,

Did you go back to UPS and tell them to look at the actual Tariff they operate under as it relates to shipping firearms? They need to look past the first sentence which is what is listed on the website. Nothing has changed and they should accept your rifle for interstate rifle shipment to an FFL or to any person intrastate.


UPS Tariff


425
FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

Firearms will be transported between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers and licensed collectors, as defined in the United States Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618, enacted October 22, 1968), as amended by the Firearms Owners' Protection Act (P.L. 99-308, approved May 19, 1986, and a subsequent amendment thereto, P.L. 99-360, approved July 8, 1986) (“the Acts”), law enforcement agencies of the United States or of any department or agency thereof, and law enforcement agencies of any State or any department, agency or political subdivision thereof, and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law and when such shipment complies with all applicable federal, state and local laws. The shipper must affix a UPS label, requesting an adult signature upon delivery, to each package containing a firearm. Adult means a person 21 years of age or older. Handguns, as defined by the Acts, will only be accepted for transportation via UPS Next Day Air Services, but will not be accepted for transportation via UPS Drop Boxes, Internet Shipping, or in response to a request for On-Call Pickup Service. Firearms, including handguns, will not be accepted when presented for shipment at a UPS Authorized Shipping Outlet or a UPS Commercial Counter. Small arms ammunition, as defined in 49 C.F.R. § 173.59, will be
transported only when packaged and labeled in compliance with 49 C.F.R. § 172.

Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:28:06 PM EST
rkbar - I didn't try it today, but will try. The only problem is that the nearest hub is over an hour away, so it's a long way to go to argue with someone who has no clue what they're talking about..... Thank you very much for the information source, though. I think this is worth pursuing and will be taking it up with them.

By the way, EOD-guy & repub18 - you're right. I missed the USPS and thought he said UPS.

Thank you all for your help!

Black Fox
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:07:15 PM EST
UPS has always shipped my firearms for me ,they told me as long as it is to a FFL holder . I wouldn't be suprised if they don't try to stop it though . I can here em now saying tooooo CONTRAVERSIAL ..................Terroristic avoidance...........political correctness............mainstream sheeple say baaaahhaaad gun .
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:19:56 PM EST
I just returned a 1911 to Springfield for Warranty repair last month and they sent me their account code to return it UPS Red using their account.

And Smith & Wesson told me to ship my Model 19 back for repair through UPS. They did advise me to try and disguise the contents when I was sending it back so it would be less likely to be stolen.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:35:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:47:08 PM EST
I had my father ship me my rifle UPS so that I would not have to take it on the plane, for a hunting trip. When they smashed the rifle in half (how I'll never really know) I tried to collect on the insurance I had my dad purchase. They refused the claim and said I was in violation of their policies because I was not a FFL dealer. This was over a year and a half ago.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 5:00:41 PM EST
Yep, ran into this with an equipment exchange order I was trying to ship out earlier this week.
UPS would only ship from an individual if it was going to a GUN MANUFACTURER.

I tried calling FEDEX, and they said that it would have to go Priority Overnight, which would have rang it at $74.11 with shipping.

I had to take the rifle to my dealer to ship for me so that I didn't get gouged.

Pain in the ass, and it seems like things are getting harder for law abiding citizens.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 5:07:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 5:08:16 PM EST by SHIVAN]
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