UPDATE: Countries top forensic document experts 99% sure 60 Minutes documents are a hoax.

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - UPDATE: Countries top forensic document experts 99% sure 60 Minutes documents are a hoax.

Posted: 9/9/2004 7:20:23 PM EDT

Countries top forensic document experts 99% sure 60 Minutes documents are a hoax.

weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=4596&R=9FCD2F192

Is It a Hoax?

Experts weigh in on the 60 Minutes documents. Says one: "I'm a Kerry supporter myself, but . . . I'm 99% sure that these documents were not produced in the early 1970s."
by Stephen F. Hayes
09/09/2004 7:20:00 PM

DOCUMENTS CITED Wednesday by 60 Minutes in a widely-publicized expose of George W. Bush's National Guard Service are very likely forgeries, according to several experts on document authenticity and typography. The documents--four memos from Killian to himself or his files written in 1972 and 1973--appear to indicate that Bush refused or ignored orders to have a physical exam required to continue flying. CBS News anchor Dan Rather reported the segment and sourced the documents this way: "60 Minutes has obtained a number of documents we are told were taken from Col. Killian's personal file," he said. The 60 Minutes story served as the basis for follow-up news reports for dozens of news organizations across the country. The memos were almost immediately questioned in the blog world, with blog Power Line leading the charge.

And according to several forensic document experts contacted by THE WEEKLY STANDARD say the Killian memos appear to be forgeries. Although it is nearly impossible to establish with certainty the authenticity of documents without a careful examination of the originals, several irregularities in the Killian memos suggest that CBS may have been the victim of a hoax.

"These sure look like forgeries," says William Flynn, a forensic document expert widely considered the nation's top analyst of computer-generated documents. Flynn looked at copies of the documents posted on the CBS News website (here, here, here, and here). Flynn says, "I would say it looks very likely that these documents could not have existed" in the early 1970s, when they were allegedly written.

Several other experts agree. "They look mighty suspicious," says a veteran forensic document expert who asked not to be quoted by name. Richard Polt, a Xavier University philosophy professor who operates a website dedicated to typewriters, says that while he is not an expert on typesetting, the documents "look like typical word-processed documents."

There are several reasons these experts are skeptical of the authenticity of the Killian memos. First the typographic spacing is proportional, as is routine with professional typesetting and computer typography, not monospace, as was common in typewriters in the 1970s. (In proportional type, thin letters like "i" and "l" are spaced closer together than thick letters like "W" and "M". In monospace, all the letter widths are the same.)

Second, the font appears to be identical to the Times New Roman font that is the default typeface in Microsoft Word and other modern word processing programs. According to Flynn, the font is not listed in the Haas Atlas--the definitive encyclopedia of typewriter type fonts.

Third, the apostrophes are curlicues of the sort produced by word processors on personal computers, not the straight vertical hashmarks typical of typewriters. Finally, in some references to Bush's unit--the 111thFighter Interceptor Squadron--the "th" is a superscript in a smaller size than the other type. Again, this is typical (and often done automatically) in modern word processing programs. Although several experts allow that such a rendering might have been theoretically possible in the early 1970s, it would have been highly unlikely. Superscripts produced on typewriters--the numbers preceding footnotes in term papers, for example--were almost always in the same size as the regular type.

So can we say with absolute certainty that the documents were forged? Not yet. Xavier University's Polt, in an email, offers two possible scenarios. "Either these are later transcriptions of earlier documents (which may have been handwritten or typed on a typewriter), or they are crude and amazingly foolish forgeries. I'm a Kerry supporter myself, but I won't let that cloud my objective judgment: I'm 99% sure that these documents were not produced in the early 1970s."

Says Flynn: "This looks pretty much like a hoax at this point in time."

CBS, in a statement Thursday afternoon, said it stands by the story. The network claims that its own document expert concluded the memos were authentic. There are several things CBS could do to clear up any confusion:

(1) Provide the name of the expert who authenticated the documents for Sixty Minutes.

(2) Provide the original documents to outside experts--William Flynn, Gerald Reynolds, and Peter Tytell seem to be the consensus top three in the United States--for further analysis.

(3) Provide more information on the source of the documents.

(A spokeswoman for CBS, Kelly Edwards, said she was overwhelmed with phone calls and did not respond to specific requests for comment.)

Posted: 9/9/2004 7:21:56 PM EDT

[#1]

This is a hoax too...

This is a hoax

This is also a hoax

This also is a hoax

Posted: 9/9/2004 7:22:30 PM EDT

[#2]

CBS NEWS executives have launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned...

From the Drudge Report, Let the bitch slapping commence

Posted: 9/9/2004 7:25:24 PM EDT

[#3]

It is a beautiful showcase of Bias in the media, several mainstream outlets jumped all over this story when it broke (the original story, not the debunking), without ever slowing down to verify anything, when no more than a few weeks ago they were working overtime to discredit the Swiftvets, and refusing to question the authenticity of John Kerry's military documentation.

Posted: 9/9/2004 7:26:14 PM EDT

[#4]

Go, GO, GO! Kerry supporters.

Just keep burying your guy in bullshit like this. Just keep making Kerry supporters (and Bush bashers) look like screaming brats determined to do whatever they can to get their way.

Keep it up, you're doing a GREAT job (of making your guy look like an ass)

Posted: 9/9/2004 7:27:08 PM EDT

[#5]

well they always check and double check their sources, right

Posted: 9/9/2004 7:27:28 PM EDT

[#6]

Excellent!

There was a thread earlier today with links to some of the Conservative blogs, those guys just fooling around as amateurs were pretty convincing in arguing that the documents were fake.

Posted: 9/9/2004 7:28:17 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
This is a hoax too...
www.1fish.co.uk/picsgen/hoax-2.jpg

This is a hoax
www.1fish.co.uk/picsgen/hoax-1.jpg
This is also a hoax
www.newwartimes.com/hoax.jpg

This also is a hoax
www.public.iastate.edu/~jfc/hoax.jpg

This too!!!

Posted: 9/9/2004 7:28:32 PM EDT

[#8]

Posted: 9/9/2004 7:28:47 PM EDT

[#9]

XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX THU SEPT 09, 2004 22:45:32 ET XXXXX

CBSNEWS LAUNCHES INTERNAL INVESTIGATION AFTER SUSPICIOUS BUSH DOCS AIRED

**Exclusive**

CBS NEWS executives have launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

"The reputation and integrity of the entire news division is at stake, if we are in error, it will be corrected," a top CBS source explained late Thursday.

The source, who asked not to be named, described CBSNEWS anchor and 60 MINUTES correspondent Dan Rather as being "shell-shocked" by the increasingly likelihood that the documents in question were fraudulent.

Rather, who anchored the segment presenting new information on the president's military service, will personally correct the record on-air, if need be, the source explained from New York.

MORE

Posted: 9/9/2004 7:30:26 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Rather, who anchored the segment presenting new information on the president's military service, will personally correct the record on-air, if need be, the source explained from New York.

MORE

But will he speak the words "GW is my daddy, I am his bitch"

Posted: 9/9/2004 7:30:27 PM EDT

[#11]

THIS is a hoax???? God damnit!

Posted: 9/9/2004 7:31:09 PM EDT

[#12]

[Fat Guy From Animal House]Oh Boy is this great![/Fat Guy From Animal House]

Posted: 9/9/2004 7:38:17 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
CBS NEWS executives have launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned...

From the Drudge Report, Let the bitch slapping commence

I KNEW IT!!!

We reviewed the docs earlier today. They all looked phony to us old retired military officers (USAF/USN). After a bit of research, we determined that a rookie forensics expert could tell they were fakes.

What continues to amaze me is how incredibly STUPID liberals are. They are technically and militarily INCOMPETENT. The only way they were going to get a good copy was to get some ex-military guy in on the scheme and apparently that was too much risk for the little dweebs...so they went with what they made up...and their editors bought it! Those partisan morons wanted to bang on Bush SO badly that they accepted a totally implausable (To the rest of the world.) premise. That just shows how far the media have tilted and how whacky they really are now. That also means DAN FUCKING RATHER bought it...because he is the lead at CBS (Read Bernie Goldberg's books.)

Pond scum...every damn one of them. This is going to play very well in the next week or so. Bad for Kerry...(Gee...I wonder if the media whores will "out" their Kerry campaign source?

Nahhh...not likely.

Posted: 9/9/2004 7:45:50 PM EDT

[#14]

Won't be the first time 60Minutes new crew has BSed the world. During the Vietnam War, they accused an American soldier of buring down a village, they were caught in a lie and said that this could've happen.

Posted: 9/9/2004 7:54:51 PM EDT

[#15]

Fox News is on to it;
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131954,00.html

Posted: 9/9/2004 8:02:45 PM EDT

[#16]

I'm having flashbacks to when Stern spent a FORTUNE buying and publishing the so-called "Hitler Diaries", only to find out they were total fakes.

They had so much mud on their faces after that it was incredible.

I hope CBS suffers a similar fate.

Posted: 9/9/2004 8:08:06 PM EDT

[#17]

this is gonna hurt kerry.... BAD.

Posted: 9/9/2004 8:14:53 PM EDT

[#18]

Fox is doing a thing on it right now! Following it right up with that new Kerry video story!

Posted: 9/9/2004 8:20:25 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Fox is doing a thing on it right now! Following it right up with that new Kerry video story!

What video story?

BTW, let the ass-kicking ensue!

Posted: 9/9/2004 8:21:43 PM EDT

[#20]

FUCK CBS, I hope they die in a fire over this.

Posted: 9/9/2004 8:23:03 PM EDT

[#21]

Stupid desperate democrats, when will they learn.

Posted: 9/9/2004 8:23:04 PM EDT

[#22]

CBS, in a statement Thursday afternoon, said it stands by the story. The network claims that its own document expert concluded the memos were authentic.

...and please fire whoever that stupid asshole is.

Posted: 9/9/2004 8:25:14 PM EDT

[#23]

I find it incredibly interesting that CBS would fall all over themselves trying to get the original story out as fast as possible, trying to put a dent into GWB's polling numbers, yet they and all the other networks worked as hard as possible to discredit the Swiftvets.

Screw 'em.

Posted: 9/9/2004 8:25:56 PM EDT

[#24]

I heard this earlier tonight on Hugh Hewitt, it was just eating this up.

hopefully this will end Dan Rather and Tom Harkins careers

Posted: 9/9/2004 8:35:48 PM EDT

[#25]

Oh, this is more than a hoax.

This is a federal felony.

Posted: 9/9/2004 8:38:01 PM EDT

[#26]

do i hear a libel suit on the horizon?

Posted: 9/9/2004 8:39:19 PM EDT

[#27]

I'd like to see heads roll for this one.

Posted: 9/9/2004 9:02:32 PM EDT

[#28]

<DU> We probably wont hear about Bush's secret police hunting them down and murdering them. </DU>

Seriously though, if I were bush I'd start looking for federally funded ways to bring accountability back into news broadcasting.

Posted: 9/9/2004 9:02:35 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Following it right up with that new Kerry video story!

What video story? I was watching SeaLab.

Posted: 9/9/2004 9:08:02 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Oh, this is more than a hoax.

This is a federal felony.

Wrong.

You would however be correct if this was a slander of a democrat done by a republican. However done to a repubican by a democrat it's perfectly exceptable. Sorry.

Posted: 9/9/2004 9:19:13 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Oh, this is more than a hoax.

This is a federal felony.

Wrong.

You would however be correct if this was a slander of a democrat done by a republican. However done to a repubican by a democrat it's perfectly exceptable. Sorry.

I know your joking about the whole slander thing.

But to be serious, it's forgery, not slander.

Posted: 9/9/2004 9:39:11 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Following it right up with that new Kerry video story!

What video story? I was watching SeaLab.

WHAT VIDEO STORY!

Posted: 9/10/2004 3:55:36 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Oh, this is more than a hoax.

This is a federal felony.

Wrong.

You would however be correct if this was a slander of a democrat done by a republican. However done to a repubican by a democrat it's perfectly exceptable. Sorry.

hr

I would tend to agree....... eventhough this may all pan out to be a hoax, doubt that the "media" will give it much air time or even hear of anyone taking the blame for this. The leftist media will sweep it under the rung while they look for more trash.
I know your joking about the whole slander thing.

But to be serious, it's forgery, not slander.

Posted: 9/10/2004 4:18:16 AM EDT

[#34]

CBS stood by its reporting. "As is standard practice at CBS News, the documents in the '60 Minutes' report were thoroughly examined and their authenticity vouched for by independent experts," CBS News said in a statement. "As importantly, '60 Minutes' also interviewed close associates of Colonel Jerry Killian. They confirm that the documents reflect his opinions and actions at the time."

So they've "thoroughly examined" them BEFORE the story and now they are going to thoroughly investigate it AFTER the story.

Dipshits.

CBS exec. - "Oh look it's something that makes Bush look bad. Stop the telepromters and put this on right now!"
CBS fact checker - "Is it true?"
Everyone else at CBS - "Who cares?! It's anti-Bush. We HAVE to say it!"

I hope they keep this shit up actaully. It'll drive their whole damn network right into the toilet.

Posted: 9/10/2004 4:26:42 AM EDT

[#35]

This is going to result in a bit of blowback on the Kerry campaign - regardless of whether they were involved or not.

Oh yeah - and CBS "newspeople" will still suck.

Posted: 9/10/2004 4:44:35 AM EDT

[#36]

The libs:"If there is no news that is favorable to our agenda..then we will CREATE it."If this is not another attempt,by the kommies,to "Re-write History" then...... I have winged monkies flying from my asshatch. Cought with their dickbeaters in the cookie jar once again.Oh well.By saturday the spin Doctors will "show us" how it was all bushes fault.

Posted: 9/10/2004 4:47:09 AM EDT

[#37]

It was nice to hear this morning on the local news that the word has gotten out on the hoax. One result of the whole document /hoax scenario is that it further muddies the water. Leading some people to assume that all data received on both candidates service record is shoddy.

BUT Bush did not run on his service record like kerry did. I believe that the mud is sliding off Bush as it hits him. kerry on the other hand is about up to his armpits in the mud now.

Posted: 9/10/2004 4:49:50 AM EDT

[#38]

What Kerry video story???

Posted: 9/10/2004 4:52:38 AM EDT

[#39]

Watching FOX this morning, I found it refreshing to see the talking head from the Kerry camp squirming and doing everything she could to change the subject.

This of course was the same talking head that spewed ad nauseum about Bush's ANG service being dishonorable. This is a blunder they cannot afford, especially with Bush's numbers getting better. This will stick like glue. . . Kerry is a fake all around.

Posted: 9/10/2004 4:54:18 AM EDT

[#40]

Now, will this garner the national attention that the documents did when they came out? Will all those top Dems start retracting their "character" comments? For some reason, I doubt it.

Woody

Posted: 9/10/2004 5:01:07 AM EDT

[#41]

Oh, this is going to be good. I can't wait to see the ensuing shakedown that will follow for 60 minutes, CBS, and Kerry. It's like hitting a trifecta at the Kentucky Derby! Let the chaos begin

Posted: 9/10/2004 5:04:27 AM EDT

[#42]

From whom exactly did CBS obtain these "documents"?

Why isn't THAT question the main point of this story?

Posted: 9/10/2004 5:08:06 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Now, will this garner the national attention that the documents did when they came out? Will all those top Dems start retracting their "character" comments? For some reason, I doubt it.

Woody

Agreed. They will instead try to distance themselves from this. The Kerry camp has already started saying that these documents were obtained via the FOIA and they had nothing to do with it or the Kerry fund raiser interviewed on 60 Min. Sorta like the 3 different citations Kerry has for a single metal signed by men not in office at the time or the Christmas in Cambodia with the chipmunks comment. . .

Posted: 9/10/2004 5:22:22 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
From whom exactly did CBS obtain these "documents"?

Why isn't THAT question the main point of this story?

GonzoAR15-1 posted this in another thread from the American Spectator:

More than six weeks ago, an opposition research staffer for the Democratic National Committee received documents purportedly written by President George W. Bush's Texas Air National Guard squadron commander, the late Col. Jerry Killian.

The oppo researcher claimed the source was "a retired military officer." According to a DNC staffer, the documents were seen by both senior staff members at the DNC, as well as the Kerry campaign.

"More than a couple people heard about the papers," says the DNC staffer. "I've heard that they ended up with the Kerry campaign, for them to decide to how to proceed, and presumably they were handed over to 60 Minutes, which used them the other night. But I know this much. When there was discussion here, there were doubts raised about their authenticity."

So according to the DNC is went "some guy" -> DNC -> Kerry -> CBS.

Posted: 9/10/2004 5:31:39 AM EDT

[#45]

That's just fucking awesome.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - UPDATE: Countries top forensic document experts 99% sure 60 Minutes documents are a hoax.

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