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Posted: 8/5/2017 2:28:08 PM EDT
It's official the ICSR is going forward.

This is the first step in replacing the M4A1 and the 5.56 round in Infantry Units.

More than likely this will mean the eventual full replacement of the 5.56 M4A1 due to acquisition chains and fleeting one rifle being easier than two.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/08/05/army-launches-competition-more-powerful-combat-rifle.html
eapon officials just opened a competition for a new 7.62mm Interim Service Combat Rifle to arm infantry units with a weapon potent enough to penetrate enemy body armor.

"The Army has identified a potential gap in the capability of ground forces and infantry to penetrate body armor using existing ammunition. To address this operational need, the Army is looking for an Interim Combat Service Rifle (ICSR) that is capable of defeating emerging threats," according to an Aug. 4 solicitation posted on FedBizOpps.gov.

The service plans to initially award up to eight contracts, procuring seven types of weapons from each gunmaker for test and evaluation purposes. Once the review is concluded, the service "may award a single follow-on Federal Acquisition Regulation (FAR) based contract for the production of up to 50,000 weapons," the solicitation states.

"The Government has a requirement to acquire a commercial 7.62mm ICSR to field with the M80A1 Enhanced Performance Round (EPR) to engage and defeat protected and unprotected threats," the solicitation states. "The ultimate objective of the program is to acquire and field a 7.62mm ICSR that will increase soldier lethality."

The opening of the competition comes just over two months after Army's Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Milley revealed to Congress that the M4 Carbine's M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round cannot penetrate modern enemy body armor plates similar to the U.S. military-issue rifle plates such as the Enhanced Small Arms Protective Insert, or ESAPI.

This past spring, Vice Chief of Staff Gen. Daniel Allyn released a directed requirement for a new 7.62mm rifle designed for combat units, prompting Army weapons officials to write a formal requirement.

The presence of a 7.62mm rifle in Army infantry squads is nothing new. Since 2009, the Army's squad designated marksman rifle has been the Enhanced Battle Rifle, or EBR, 14 -- a modernized M14 equipped with a Sage International adjustable aluminum stock with pistol grip, a Leupold 3.5x10 power scope and Harris bipod legs.

The Army adopted the EBR concept, first used in 2004 by Navy SEALs, in response to the growing need of infantry squads operating in Afghanistan to engage enemy fighters at longer ranges.

The EBR is heavy, just under 15 pounds unloaded, compared with the standard M14's unloaded weight of 9 pounds.

The Army's Interim Combat Service Rifle should have either 16-inch or 20-inch barrels, a collapsible buttstock, an extended forward rail and weigh less than 12 pounds unloaded and without an optic, according to a May 31 Army request for information.

Multiple proposals may be submitted by the same organization; however, each proposal must consist of the weapons, proposal, and System Safety Assessment Report. All proposals are due by 3 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time Wednesday Sept. 6 September 2017, the solicitation states.

In addition to the weapons, gun makers will also be evaluated on production capability and proposed price, according to the solicitation.

All weapons should include items such as a suppressor, cleaning, specialized tools and enough magazines to support the basic load of 210 rounds.

The competition will consist of live-fire testing and evaluate the following:

Dispersion (300m - function, 600m - simulation)
Compatible with Family of Weapon Sights - Individual and laser
Weapon length (folder or collapsed)/ Weight (empty/bare) / Velocity (300m and 600m calculated)
Semi-Automatic and Fully Automatic function testing (bursts and full auto)
Noise (at shooter's ear) / Flash suppression
Ambidextrous Controls (in darkness or adverse conditions) / Rail interface
20-30 round magazine to support a 210 round combat load
Folding sights
"Areas to be evaluated could include, but not be limited to: Controllability and Recoil, Trigger, Ease/Speed of Magazine Changes, Sighting System Interface (e.g., ability to acquire and maintain sight picture), and Usability of Controls (e.g., safety)," the solicitation states.

"Additionally, a small, limited user evaluation may be conducted with qualified soldiers," it states.

Milley told lawmakers in late May that the Army does not believe that every soldier needs a 7.62mm rifle. These weapons would be reserved for the Army's most rapid-deployable infantry units.

"We would probably want to field them with a better-grade weapon that can penetrate this body armor," Milley said.
View Quote
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=c3a0df63ed769522a0cdf3df867774e8&tab=core&_cview=1
The Government will be evaluating the performance of the various bid samples against each other using the below-listed attributes. The Government will be using a weighted point scoring system to perform its evaluation of the ICSR bid samples. The attributes are ranked in order of importance, for further details see Attachment 0003 (Bid Sample Testing Attribute Ranking Explanation). The evaluation will consist of live fire testing of the attributes listed below. These attributes are ranked in descending order of importance. The evaluation results will then be tallied to determine the overall rating.


1. Dispersion (300m - function, 600m - simulation)
2. Compatible w/ FWS-I and laser
3. Weapon length (folder or collapsed)/ Weight (empty/bare) / Velocity (300m and 600m calculated)
4. Semi-Automatic and Fully Automatic function testing (bursts and full auto)
5. Noise (at shooter's ear) / Flash suppression
6. Ambidextrous Controls (in darkness or adverse conditions) / Rail interface
7. 20-30 round magazine to support a 210 round combat load
8. Folding sights

NOTE 1: Attributes 2, 6, 7, and 8 above will be evaluated on a zero/full point basis. An Offeror whose bid sample receives zero (0) points for one (1) or more of these attributes will not be automatically eliminated from the competition; however, receiving a zero (0) score for one (1) or more of these attributes will adversely impact an Offeror's overall score.


NOTE 2: The proposed candidate will be eliminated from the competition with no further evaluation if at any time the weapon becomes inoperable during testing.


NOTE 3: In order to evaluate the bid sample, the Offeror must include the cleaning, lubrication and preservative (CLP) that is currently on the weapon. The Offeror must be aware that during the evaluations, the weapon will be cleaned with standard, military CLP.
View Quote
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:29:19 PM EDT
[#1]
Beats teaching troops how to shoot or actually employing weapons squads.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:29:33 PM EDT
[#2]
Obvious answer 

Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:33:22 PM EDT
[#3]
Pure folly. Dudes are gonna love carrying 7.62 mags everywhere
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:35:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Pure folly. Dudes are gonna love carrying 7.62 mags everywhere
View Quote
20/30 round mags with a combat load of 210 rounds in 7.62. What's not to love!
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:36:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
COTS only, that gun is far from commercially available, and they want submissions by Sept. 6th.

@Sylvan
@RustedAce
@GS5414
@JohnBurns
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:38:59 PM EDT
[#6]
I think it will get dropped and the M4 will continue.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:40:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I think it will get dropped and the M4 will continue.
View Quote
SCAR-H Anyone?
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:40:29 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Moar obvious answer.

Attachment Attached File


IN! On this shitshow.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:41:32 PM EDT
[#9]
Just pick the SCAR 17 so I can get cheap mags
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:42:15 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Just pick the SCAR 17 so I can get cheap mags
View Quote
That is the likely winner IMO.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:44:36 PM EDT
[#11]
210 round combat load?

They already have enough knee and back issues...
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:44:52 PM EDT
[#12]
With everything I have learned.


1. This is going to happen.

2. We are regressing to 1940's war theory. We have done this before 30 cal is bullshit.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:45:06 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
210 round combat load?

They already have enough knee and back issues...
View Quote
What? Who doesn't want to carry 16lbs of ammunition!
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:46:13 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
no no no, picking a weapon that fills the role and is already in the inventory makes WAY too much sense for the army.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:48:02 PM EDT
[#15]
They may as well just switch to 7.62x39 because that's the direction they are heading. It has too much recoil for full auto, but they want longer range shots too, so they may as well go semi auto. Heck, I think they may want to just adobt the SKS.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:50:49 PM EDT
[#16]
It seems like certain people are ignoring thousands of years of military history. The best way to defeat an enemy's armor isn't to try and punch through it; it's to poke him somewhere where there is no armor or where it's weaker
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:51:50 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


COTS only, that gun is far from commercially available, and they want submissions by Sept. 6th.

@Sylvan
@RustedAce
@GS5414
@JohnBurns
View Quote
But not portablegorilla?

Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:54:01 PM EDT
[#18]
Idiots in the head shed doing "leadership" things again.

1. Have you ever had a problem with someone AFTER you shot them with 5.56?
2. Do you often use small arms to engage targets beyond 500Meters?
3. Do feel carrying 3x the weight for the same amount of ammo is a reasonable trade off for better range?
4. Are you a general whose "command" is a dozen or so "troops" who only produce coffee and powerpoints?
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:54:16 PM EDT
[#19]
This happened a thousand times. The soldier needs a longer range weapon in mountainous and desert environment. So we adopt a 7.62 rifle. next week we'll be in the Congo and needing a 5.56 rifle. I don't know why we don't just have 2 rifles to choose from for these type things.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:56:31 PM EDT
[#20]
If they want to keep the same loadout with 7.62 they'd better get on caseless ammunition post haste.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 2:59:22 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
But not portablegorilla?

View Quote
@portablegorilla

Almost forgot you buddy.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:00:29 PM EDT
[#22]
It will happen as soon as we get the XM8 we were guaranteed.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:00:39 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If they want to keep the same loadout with 7.62 they'd better get on caseless ammunition post haste.
View Quote
Supposedly they have polymer 7.62 working so you can carry 210 rounds for 1.66 times the weight vs 2 times the weight.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:01:21 PM EDT
[#24]
I don't think the 5.56 will be replaced for general issue.

If it is, they need to go to a 6.5 with 25 round mags. The case should be longer and wider than a .223, but shorter and narrower than a .308 (see what I did there?). The ballistics wouls be somewhere between a grendel and a creedmore. Using the DPMS g2 theory you could end up with a rifle that is the same size or lighter than an m4, with just the magwell being bigger.

And please don't have an ar charging handle.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:02:24 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Beats teaching troops how to shoot or actually employing weapons squads.
View Quote
Guys have a hard enough time managing the low impulse of 5.56

Imagine how poorly the shooting will be if they decide to go to 7.62
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:03:26 PM EDT
[#26]
idiots being idiots.


30 cal is dumb.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:05:13 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I don't think the 5.56 will be replaced for general issue.

If it is, they need to go to a 6.5 with 25 round mags. The case should be longer and wider than a .223, but shorter and narrower than a .308 (see what I did there?). The ballistics wouls be somewhere between a grendel and a creedmore. Using the DPMS g2 theory you could end up with a rifle that is the same size or lighter than an m4, with just the magwell being bigger.

And please don't have an ar charging handle.
View Quote
I think the whole point in "interim" is to move them to a 6mm-class round. So, while I agree 7.62 is a step back, I get where they are going.

Problem being...these interim solutions in the military often become permanent because no one follows through with a plan!
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:05:29 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Supposedly they have polymer 7.62 working so you can carry 210 rounds for 1.66 times the weight vs 2 times the weight.
View Quote
My unit was a cunt hair away from going BLACK on all ammo. During an Company level assault on a big industrial building in Iraq.

If 7.62 was the standard, they WOULD have gone black well before them almost doing so with 5.56
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:06:21 PM EDT
[#29]
they should adopt 6.5 grendel







Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:06:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
210 round combat load?

They already have enough knee and back issues...
View Quote
Yeah, but you'll get a robotic exoskeleton to help you carry it all.

Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:08:43 PM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I think the whole point in "interim" is to move them to a 6mm-class round. So, while I agree 7.62 is a step back, I get where they are going.

Problem being...these interim solutions in the military often become permanent because no one follows through with a plan!
View Quote
Spot on, the idea is to eventually go interim...but we won't because it's the Military and it will always be a 7.62 general issue rifle.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:10:20 PM EDT
[#32]
lol
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:12:29 PM EDT
[#33]
I'm glad we're able to use what we want:  5.56 for the doorkickers; 7.62 for the shooters.

And I'll probably be done by the time the thing ever gets fielded...if it ever gets fielded.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:15:45 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm glad we're able to use what we want:  5.56 for the doorkickers; 7.62 for the shooters.

And I'll probably be done by the time the thing ever gets fielded...if it ever gets fielded.
View Quote
Just like there have been a bunch of moves to replace the M4. This is definitely not guaranteed to happen.

I take some comfort in that.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:16:38 PM EDT
[#35]
should just go with 6.8 SPC and call it a day.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:18:07 PM EDT
[#36]
I hope every time they try to testing they wind up going "holy shit this is a bad idea" and eventually drop it like the XM8.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:18:08 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm glad we're able to use what we want:  5.56 for the doorkickers; 7.62 for the shooters.

And I'll probably be done by the time the thing ever gets fielded...if it ever gets fielded.
View Quote
Look for this RFP and competition to do exactly what the XM17/XM18 did.
RFP 2015.
Winner selected 1/2017
Units getting the gun 11/2017.

This will happen very fast, and it will be pushed out to units just as fast.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:20:04 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Look for this RFP and competition to do exactly what the XM17/XM18 did.
RFP 2015.
Winner selected 1/2017
Units getting the gun 11/2017.

This will happen very fast, and it will be pushed out to units just as fast.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm glad we're able to use what we want:  5.56 for the doorkickers; 7.62 for the shooters.

And I'll probably be done by the time the thing ever gets fielded...if it ever gets fielded.
Look for this RFP and competition to do exactly what the XM17/XM18 did.
RFP 2015.
Winner selected 1/2017
Units getting the gun 11/2017.

This will happen very fast, and it will be pushed out to units just as fast.
Or it could XM8.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:20:36 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
210 round combat load?

They already have enough knee and back issues...
View Quote
No kidding. So what other items will they have to give up in order to offset that extra weight? Yikes!
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:21:10 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Or it could XM8.
View Quote
Was the XM8 pushed by the Army Chief of Staff?

That was before my time really, but this is a CoS project through and through. It's his baby, he went before the Senate Arms Committee and told them we need a 7.62 rifle to defeat Russia!!! Give me money and I'll make it happen. Congress gave him money to make it happen.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:22:24 PM EDT
[#41]
Going black means going empty?

V
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:22:43 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Was the XM8 pushed by the Army Chief of Staff?

That was before my time really, but this is a CoS project through and through. It's his baby, he went before the Senate Arms Committee and told them we need a 7.62 rifle to defeat Russia!!! Give me money and I'll make it happen. Congress gave him money to make it happen.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

Or it could XM8.
Was the XM8 pushed by the Army Chief of Staff?

That was before my time really, but this is a CoS project through and through. It's his baby, he went before the Senate Arms Committee and told them we need a 7.62 rifle to defeat Russia!!! Give me money and I'll make it happen. Congress gave him money to make it happen.
And?

According to Milley, it wouldn't be an Army wide adaptation.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:23:30 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Going black means going empty?

V
View Quote
Yes, Black on ammunition means you have no more in that caliber available in your unit or CoP.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:24:54 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

And?

According to Milley, it wouldn't be an Army wide adaptation.
View Quote
Yes, it will just go to units who will see combat.

Think about that, eventually everyone sees combat or deploys to a area where you may.

Eventually the need for uniformity will kick in and this weapon will be pure fleeted to make procurement/maintenance/logistics easier. Sure Reserve and what not will keep the M4, but have no doubt that eventually this will replace the current 500,000 M4/M4A1's with front line units.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:27:01 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Look for this RFP and competition to do exactly what the XM17/XM18 did.
RFP 2015.
Winner selected 1/2017
Units getting the gun 11/2017.

This will happen very fast, and it will be pushed out to units just as fast.
View Quote
"Fast" in DA terms, or in joglee terms?
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:27:44 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Yes, it will just go to units who will see combat.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

And?

According to Milley, it wouldn't be an Army wide adaptation.
Yes, it will just go to units who will see combat.
That isn't what he said.

That isnt what the article says the army said.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:28:28 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


20/30 round mags with a combat load of 210 rounds in 7.62. What's not to love!
View Quote
The weight.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:29:36 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Beats teaching troops how to shoot or actually employing weapons squads.
View Quote
Yea training is for suckers 
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:29:56 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

That isn't what he said.
View Quote
If you think this won't be a eventual full fleet replacement of the M4 you are just as wrong as all those that told me this RFP would never happen, and then made fun of me for thinking it would.

Yet here we are, No matter what Milley says eventually logistical uniformity is a necessity for military weapons and this will eventually either completely die off and never happen, or it will full scale replace the M4.

I believe the M4 was also initially just for those units who were the most rapid deployed as well, yet now it is the standard issue carbine of the US Army, just as the ICSR will be.
Link Posted: 8/5/2017 3:30:51 PM EDT
[#50]
This will be fun.
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