UK - Tebbit attacks 'unreformed' Islam

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - UK - Tebbit attacks 'unreformed' Islam

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:15:42 AM EDT

Can't fault his reasoning!

ANdy

Tebbit attacks 'unreformed' Islam

Lord Tebbit caused controversy with his 'cricket test'
Islam is so unreformed there have been no real advances in art, literature, science or technology in the Muslim world in 500 years, Lord Tebbit says.
Multiculturalism is in danger of undermining British society, the former Conservative Party chairman also tells the e-politix website.

In the 1980s he questioned the loyalty of immigrants who backed cricket teams from their countries of origin.

Now he says if he had been heeded it might have stopped the London bombings.

"I do think had my comments been acted on those attacks would have been less likely," Lord Tebbit told the website.

"What I was saying about the so-called 'cricket test' is that it was a test of whether a community has integrated.

Multicultural society

"If a community was looking back at where it had come from instead of looking forward with the people to whom they had come to, then there is going to be a problem sooner or later."

Lord Tebbit said multicultural society was "an impossibility" because if there were two cultures there would also be two societies.

"A society is defined by its culture. It is not defined by its race, it is not a matter of skin colour or ethnicity, it is a matter of culture.

"If you have two societies in the same place then you are going to have problems, like the kind we saw on 7 July, sooner or later," he said.

He warned London was "sinking into the same abyss that Londonderry and Belfast sank".

Lord Tebbit also criticised Islam for holding back progress in countries where it was the dominant faith.

"The Muslim religion is so unreformed since it was created that nowhere in the Muslim world has there been any real advance in science, or art or literature, or technology in the last 500 years," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4163484.stm

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:19:29 AM EDT

[#1]

Islam is so unreformed there have been no real advances in art, literature, science or technology in the Muslim world in 500 years

I certainly agree with that point. These people live and govern like it was still the 1300's. It's as if time has passed them by.

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:22:54 AM EDT

[#2]

"The Muslim religion is so unreformed since it was created that nowhere in the Muslim world has there been any real advance in science, or art or literature, or technology in the last 500 years," he said.

Correct. It is not a coincidence that all of their countries are fucked up and the Western ones are doing fine (including non-Christian ones like Japan). Then again maybe I'm just being prejudiced.

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:32:04 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
"The Muslim religion is so unreformed since it was created that nowhere in the Muslim world has there been any real advance in science, or art or literature, or technology in the last 500 years," he said.

Correct. It is not a coincidence that all of their countries are fucked up and the Western ones are doing fine (including non-Christian ones like Japan). Then again maybe I'm just being prejudiced.hr

Yeah especially since as we all know Japan has GIGANTIC natural resources which have GREATLY aided them in becoming one of the richest Countries, and assiduity has NOTHING to do with it. Same goes for North America, Europe and Israel too btw. /sarcasm off

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:40:12 AM EDT

[#4]

There is theory in political science that states that it is oil that has caused this problem within middle eastern countries.

In western societies... governments receive their revenue from taxation of their citizens. Therefore, advanced western societies benefit from human capital and innovation, for the greater the advance in technology and productivity, the more money a country's citizens can make. The more money that is made, the more the government can collect in taxes. Thereofre, in western societies, governments benefit by advancing the education and intellectual capacity of their citizens, and it is in their interest to promote such development.

Moreover, because western governments burden their citizens with the evil of taxation, their people demand that their governments be responsive to their wants and desires (no taxation without representation). This dicotomy leads inevitably to the foundation of democracy, or so the theory states. (In addition, the more educated a society, the more politically aware it becomes.)

Middle eastern nations on the other hand, are rich in national resources, oil in particular. Governments in the middle east have chosen to rely exclusively on oil revenues and not on taxation. The govts of the middle east are able to bypass their citizens, and therefore, make them irrevelant in the production of revenue. Middle eastern states are propped up by oil revenues, making innovation and intellectual development of little concern or value.

Basically, in short, oil has been a curse on intellectual development in the middle east. It has made them lazy and complacent.

Western countries produce oil as well, but countries such as the US or Netherlands were already industrialized and developed countries long before they got into the oil business. The middle east was not before the oil bug hit them.... and they have suffered because of it.

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:55:16 AM EDT

[#5]

it's amazing how a little political theory can kill a thread

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:59:28 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
There is theory in political science that states that it is oil that has caused this problem within middle eastern countries.

In western societies... the government receives it revenue from taxation of its citizens. Therefore, advanced western societies benefit from human capital and innovation, for the greater the advance in technology and productivity, the more money a countries citizens can make. The more money that is made, the more the government can collect in taxes.

Because the government burdens the its citizens with the evil of taxation, the people demand that the government be responsive to their wants and desires (no taxation without representation). This dicotomy leads inevitably to the foundation of our democracy, so the theory states.

Middle eastern nations on the other hand, are rich in national resources, oil in particular. Governments in the middle east have chosen to rely exclusively on oil revenues and not on taxation. The govts of the middle east are able to bypass its citizens, and therefore, make them irrevelant in the production of revenue. Middle eastern states are propped up by oil revenues, making innovation and intellectual development of little concern or value.

Basically, in short, oil has been a curse on intellectual development in the middle east. It has made them lazy and complacent.

Western countries produce oil as well, but countries such as the US or Netherlands were already industrialized and developed countries long before they got into the oil business. The middle east was not before the oil bug hit them.... and they have suffered because of it.

Interesting theory, and I agree...however I think that political culture and mindset are far more relevant to Success or failure. Capitalism is the Best system, it encourages technological advancements, innovations etc but it doens't mix well with Islam or with Animism and Shamanism. It does mix very well with Christianism, Judaism, Shintoism and Atheism. IMO that's one of the core problems of the Middle East, Africa etc their Culture/Mindset hinders them from Modernization, technological progress etc you name it! Why would you want to go to Unviersity if your biggest goal in life is to never miss the Muftis call to prayer or the time for a Siesta? If the majority of the population embodies this mindset, which is the case, you can't except much advancement or progress...
I mean isn't it funny that the enitre west (even eastern europe since they went fro communism to capitalism) is prosperous while not having MUCH natural resources while Africa, South America are underdeveloped as hell. There must be some reason for this huge gap, especially given Africas etc privileged "Land" (Space, Oil,Uranium,Gold etc).

Posted: 8/19/2005 2:11:20 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
There is theory in political science that states that it is oil that has caused this problem within middle eastern countries.

In western societies... the government receives it revenue from taxation of its citizens. Therefore, advanced western societies benefit from human capital and innovation, for the greater the advance in technology and productivity, the more money a country's citizens can make. The more money that is made, the more the government can collect in taxes. Thereofre, in western societies, government benefit by advancing the education and intellectual capacity of their citizens, and it is in their interest to promote such development.

Moreover, because western governments burden their citizens with the evil of taxation, their people demand that their governments be responsive to their wants and desires (no taxation without representation). This dicotomy leads inevitably to the foundation of democracy, or so the theory states. (In addition, the more educated a society, the more politically aware it becomes.)

Middle eastern nations on the other hand, are rich in national resources, oil in particular. Governments in the middle east have chosen to rely exclusively on oil revenues and not on taxation. The govts of the middle east are able to bypass its citizens, and therefore, make them irrevelant in the production of revenue. Middle eastern states are propped up by oil revenues, making innovation and intellectual development of little concern or value.

Basically, in short, oil has been a curse on intellectual development in the middle east. It has made them lazy and complacent.

Western countries produce oil as well, but countries such as the US or Netherlands were already industrialized and developed countries long before they got into the oil business. The middle east was not before the oil bug hit them.... and they have suffered because of it.

OK… so if if Oil explains the last 90 years of stagnation and lack of intellectual development, what explains the previous 410?

Fundemental truth: Islam = Stagnation

Posted: 8/19/2005 2:11:36 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:
There is theory in political science that states that it is oil that has caused this problem within middle eastern countries.

In western societies... the government receives it revenue from taxation of its citizens. Therefore, advanced western societies benefit from human capital and innovation, for the greater the advance in technology and productivity, the more money a countries citizens can make. The more money that is made, the more the government can collect in taxes.

Because the government burdens the its citizens with the evil of taxation, the people demand that the government be responsive to their wants and desires (no taxation without representation). This dicotomy leads inevitably to the foundation of our democracy, so the theory states.

Middle eastern nations on the other hand, are rich in national resources, oil in particular. Governments in the middle east have chosen to rely exclusively on oil revenues and not on taxation. The govts of the middle east are able to bypass its citizens, and therefore, make them irrevelant in the production of revenue. Middle eastern states are propped up by oil revenues, making innovation and intellectual development of little concern or value.

Basically, in short, oil has been a curse on intellectual development in the middle east. It has made them lazy and complacent.

Western countries produce oil as well, but countries such as the US or Netherlands were already industrialized and developed countries long before they got into the oil business. The middle east was not before the oil bug hit them.... and they have suffered because of it.

Interesting theory, and I agree...however I think that political culture and mindset are far more relevant to Success or failure. Capitalism is the Best system, it encourages technological advancements, innovations etc but it doens't mix well with Islam or with Animism and Shamanism. It does mix very well with Christianism, Judaism, Shintoism and Atheism. IMO that's one of the core problems of the Middle East, Africa etc their Culture/Mindset hinders them from Modernization, technological progress etc you name it! Why would you want to go to Unviersity if your biggest goal in life is to never miss the Muftis call to prayer or the time for a Siesta? If the majority of the population embodies this mindset, which is the case, you can't except much advancement or progress...
I mean isn't it funny that the enitre west (even eastern europe since they went fro communism to capitalism) is prosperous while not having MUCH natural resources while Africa, South America are underdeveloped as hell. There must be some reason for this huge gap, especially given Africas etc privileged "Land" (Space, Oil,Uranium,Gold etc).

Actually... Russia is basically staying afloat due to its oil industry and the sale of natural gas. Russia is one of the largest energy producers in the world. The two things it sells basically are advanced weapons systems and its natural resources (well... and nuclear reactors to Iran

)... and the price of oil is seriously helping the russian government right now.

Of course their oil companies are privately owned now like ours (however the state recently seized the oil companies and put the top execs in jail due to "tax evasion", when in reality it was to keep the russian oligarchs out of politics)

Same goes for the former soviet republics in the Caucasus . The caucasus states are staying afloat by exploiting their share of the resources they control in the caspian sea... natural gas and oil.

Posted: 8/19/2005 2:22:53 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Quoted:
There is theory in political science that states that it is oil that has caused this problem within middle eastern countries.

In western societies... the government receives it revenue from taxation of its citizens. Therefore, advanced western societies benefit from human capital and innovation, for the greater the advance in technology and productivity, the more money a country's citizens can make. The more money that is made, the more the government can collect in taxes. Thereofre, in western societies, government benefit by advancing the education and intellectual capacity of their citizens, and it is in their interest to promote such development.

Moreover, because western governments burden their citizens with the evil of taxation, their people demand that their governments be responsive to their wants and desires (no taxation without representation). This dicotomy leads inevitably to the foundation of democracy, or so the theory states. (In addition, the more educated a society, the more politically aware it becomes.)

Middle eastern nations on the other hand, are rich in national resources, oil in particular. Governments in the middle east have chosen to rely exclusively on oil revenues and not on taxation. The govts of the middle east are able to bypass its citizens, and therefore, make them irrevelant in the production of revenue. Middle eastern states are propped up by oil revenues, making innovation and intellectual development of little concern or value.

Basically, in short, oil has been a curse on intellectual development in the middle east. It has made them lazy and complacent.

Western countries produce oil as well, but countries such as the US or Netherlands were already industrialized and developed countries long before they got into the oil business. The middle east was not before the oil bug hit them.... and they have suffered because of it.

OK… so if if Oil explains the last 90 years of stagnation and lack of intellectual development, what explains the previous 410?

Fundemental truth: Islam = Stagnation

Actually, that time period (the 410 previous years), if you do recall, was especially rife with war and political unrest within muslim society, which was not very conducive to an enlightenment.

Just as Europe had its dark ages where the European feudal system was in a period of tremendous political upheaval, Islam followed suit with the fall of the caliphate and the resulting chaos that ensued thereafter.

After Europe over came its power struggles and social unrest, it was able to move forward into a period of technology advancement and innovation. Islam never had this chance before the realities of oil hit them. If Islam hadnt been at war with itself and others for so many centuries following its golden period, well.... things could be quite different today.

Posted: 8/19/2005 2:55:46 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

After Europe over came its power struggles and social unrest, it was able to move forward into a period of technology advancement and innovation. Islam never had this chance before the realities of oil hit them. If Islam hadnt been at war with itself and others for so many centuries following its golden period, well.... things could be quite different today.

Don't buy that either…

Europe was in a state of almost continuous warfare from the 1600's to 1945… War is a great enabler of scientific progress.

ANdy

Posted: 8/19/2005 2:58:15 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

After Europe over came its power struggles and social unrest, it was able to move forward into a period of technology advancement and innovation. Islam never had this chance before the realities of oil hit them. If Islam hadnt been at war with itself and others for so many centuries following its golden period, well.... things could be quite different today.

Don't buy that either…

Europe was in a state of almost continuous warfare from the 1600's to 1945… War is a great enabler of scientific progress.

ANdy

It can... but not always.

Posted: 8/19/2005 3:15:32 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is theory in political science that states that it is oil that has caused this problem within middle eastern countries.

In western societies... the government receives it revenue from taxation of its citizens. Therefore, advanced western societies benefit from human capital and innovation, for the greater the advance in technology and productivity, the more money a countries citizens can make. The more money that is made, the more the government can collect in taxes.

Because the government burdens the its citizens with the evil of taxation, the people demand that the government be responsive to their wants and desires (no taxation without representation). This dicotomy leads inevitably to the foundation of our democracy, so the theory states.

Middle eastern nations on the other hand, are rich in national resources, oil in particular. Governments in the middle east have chosen to rely exclusively on oil revenues and not on taxation. The govts of the middle east are able to bypass its citizens, and therefore, make them irrevelant in the production of revenue. Middle eastern states are propped up by oil revenues, making innovation and intellectual development of little concern or value.

Basically, in short, oil has been a curse on intellectual development in the middle east. It has made them lazy and complacent.

Western countries produce oil as well, but countries such as the US or Netherlands were already industrialized and developed countries long before they got into the oil business. The middle east was not before the oil bug hit them.... and they have suffered because of it.

Interesting theory, and I agree...however I think that political culture and mindset are far more relevant to Success or failure. Capitalism is the Best system, it encourages technological advancements, innovations etc but it doens't mix well with Islam or with Animism and Shamanism. It does mix very well with Christianism, Judaism, Shintoism and Atheism. IMO that's one of the core problems of the Middle East, Africa etc their Culture/Mindset hinders them from Modernization, technological progress etc you name it! Why would you want to go to Unviersity if your biggest goal in life is to never miss the Muftis call to prayer or the time for a Siesta? If the majority of the population embodies this mindset, which is the case, you can't except much advancement or progress...
I mean isn't it funny that the enitre west (even eastern europe since they went fro communism to capitalism) is prosperous while not having MUCH natural resources while Africa, South America are underdeveloped as hell. There must be some reason for this huge gap, especially given Africas etc privileged "Land" (Space, Oil,Uranium,Gold etc).

Actually... Russia is basically staying afloat due to its oil industry and the sale of natural gas. Russia is one of the largest energy producers in the world. The two things it sells basically are advanced weapons systems and its natural resources (well... and nuclear reactors to Iran hinking.gif)... and the price of oil is seriously helping the russian government right now.

Of course their oil companies are privately owned now like ours (however the state recently seized the oil companies and put the top execs in jail due to "tax evasion", when in reality it was to keep the russian oligarchs out of politics)

Same goes for the former soviet republics in the Caucasus . The caucasus states are staying afloat by exploiting their share of the resources they control in the caspian sea... natural gas and oil.

No offense man, but what does that have to do with the Thread?

Posted: 8/19/2005 3:28:53 AM EDT

[#13]

The problem with the Arab/Muslim M.E. is that 500 yrs ago the Ottomans took the place over and basically retarded social/cultural developement (And the evolution of Muslim thought) until they lost it 9 decades ago to European colonialists (Who hardly fostered much in the way of self-determination) who IN TURN lost it 5-6 decades ago when it split along "Cold-War" lines.

It's an honest shame the way history has treated the Arab middle-east but, the rest of the world can't sit around and wait for them to recover the last 500 yrs. CHRISTIANS weren't the nicest folks in the 15th and 16th centuries but they didn't have the option of NUCLEAR (And delivery systems) weapons to further their goals and eventually evolved to form some of the greatest cultures to ever exist (DESPITE what they say on "ERR America").

We don't have the luxury of waiting for the Middle-East to join with the 21st century on THEIR schedule. The entire planet is at risk if they don't choose to fast-track their catch-up.

Posted: 8/19/2005 3:40:16 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is theory in political science that states that it is oil that has caused this problem within middle eastern countries.

In western societies... the government receives it revenue from taxation of its citizens. Therefore, advanced western societies benefit from human capital and innovation, for the greater the advance in technology and productivity, the more money a countries citizens can make. The more money that is made, the more the government can collect in taxes.

Because the government burdens the its citizens with the evil of taxation, the people demand that the government be responsive to their wants and desires (no taxation without representation). This dicotomy leads inevitably to the foundation of our democracy, so the theory states.

Middle eastern nations on the other hand, are rich in national resources, oil in particular. Governments in the middle east have chosen to rely exclusively on oil revenues and not on taxation. The govts of the middle east are able to bypass its citizens, and therefore, make them irrevelant in the production of revenue. Middle eastern states are propped up by oil revenues, making innovation and intellectual development of little concern or value.

Basically, in short, oil has been a curse on intellectual development in the middle east. It has made them lazy and complacent.

Western countries produce oil as well, but countries such as the US or Netherlands were already industrialized and developed countries long before they got into the oil business. The middle east was not before the oil bug hit them.... and they have suffered because of it.

Interesting theory, and I agree...however I think that political culture and mindset are far more relevant to Success or failure. Capitalism is the Best system, it encourages technological advancements, innovations etc but it doens't mix well with Islam or with Animism and Shamanism. It does mix very well with Christianism, Judaism, Shintoism and Atheism. IMO that's one of the core problems of the Middle East, Africa etc their Culture/Mindset hinders them from Modernization, technological progress etc you name it! Why would you want to go to Unviersity if your biggest goal in life is to never miss the Muftis call to prayer or the time for a Siesta? If the majority of the population embodies this mindset, which is the case, you can't except much advancement or progress...
I mean isn't it funny that the enitre west (even eastern europe since they went fro communism to capitalism) is prosperous while not having MUCH natural resources while Africa, South America are underdeveloped as hell. There must be some reason for this huge gap, especially given Africas etc privileged "Land" (Space, Oil,Uranium,Gold etc).

Actually... Russia is basically staying afloat due to its oil industry and the sale of natural gas. Russia is one of the largest energy producers in the world. The two things it sells basically are advanced weapons systems and its natural resources (well... and nuclear reactors to Iran )... and the price of oil is seriously helping the russian government right now.

Of course their oil companies are privately owned now like ours (however the state recently seized the oil companies and put the top execs in jail due to "tax evasion", when in reality it was to keep the russian oligarchs out of politics)

Same goes for the former soviet republics in the Caucasus . The caucasus states are staying afloat by exploiting their share of the resources they control in the caspian sea... natural gas and oil.

No offense man, but what does that have to do with the Thread?

Nothing... and I wasnt trying to be a wise ass... I was just making a factual correction in your statement. I hope didnt come off as me trying to be a jerk.

Posted: 8/19/2005 3:42:14 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
The problem with the Arab/Muslim M.E. is that 500 yrs ago the Ottomans took the place over and basically retarded social/cultural developement (And the evolution of Muslim thought) until they lost it 9 decades ago to European colonialists (Who hardly fostered much in the way of self-determination) who IN TURN lost it 5-6 decades ago when it split along "Cold-War" lines.

It's an honest shame the way history has treated the Arab middle-east but, the rest of the world can't sit around and wait for them to recover the last 500 yrs. CHRISTIANS weren't the nicest folks in the 15th and 16th centuries but they didn't have the option of NUCLEAR (And delivery systems) weapons to further their goals and eventually evolved to form some of the greatest cultures to ever exist (DESPITE what they say on "ERR America").

We don't have the luxury of waiting for the Middle-East to join with the 21st century on THEIR schedule. The entire planet is at risk if they don't choose to fast-track their catch-up.

good points treadhead. I forgot to mention how that whole colonialism thing might have had something to do with what we are discussing

Posted: 8/19/2005 3:43:24 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Can't fault his reasoning!

ANdy

Tebbit attacks 'unreformed' Islam

Lord Tebbit caused controversy with his 'cricket test'
Islam is so unreformed there have been no real advances in art, literature, science or technology in the Muslim world in 500 years, Lord Tebbit says.
Multiculturalism is in danger of undermining British society, the former Conservative Party chairman also tells the e-politix website.

In the 1980s he questioned the loyalty of immigrants who backed cricket teams from their countries of origin.

Now he says if he had been heeded it might have stopped the London bombings.

"I do think had my comments been acted on those attacks would have been less likely," Lord Tebbit told the website.

"What I was saying about the so-called 'cricket test' is that it was a test of whether a community has integrated.

Multicultural society

"If a community was looking back at where it had come from instead of looking forward with the people to whom they had come to, then there is going to be a problem sooner or later."

Lord Tebbit said multicultural society was "an impossibility" because if there were two cultures there would also be two societies.

"A society is defined by its culture. It is not defined by its race, it is not a matter of skin colour or ethnicity, it is a matter of culture.

"If you have two societies in the same place then you are going to have problems, like the kind we saw on 7 July, sooner or later," he said.

He warned London was "sinking into the same abyss that Londonderry and Belfast sank".

Lord Tebbit also criticised Islam for holding back progress in countries where it was the dominant faith.

"The Muslim religion is so unreformed since it was created that nowhere in the Muslim world has there been any real advance in science, or art or literature, or technology in the last 500 years," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4163484.stm

This is a lesson the US refuses to learn. There are way too many legal and illegal immigrants who do not assimilate into our society and we are brainwashed into believing that America is supposed to be a salad bowl, and not a melting pot.

Posted: 8/19/2005 3:47:24 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is theory in political science that states that it is oil that has caused this problem within middle eastern countries.

In western societies... the government receives it revenue from taxation of its citizens. Therefore, advanced western societies benefit from human capital and innovation, for the greater the advance in technology and productivity, the more money a countries citizens can make. The more money that is made, the more the government can collect in taxes.

Because the government burdens the its citizens with the evil of taxation, the people demand that the government be responsive to their wants and desires (no taxation without representation). This dicotomy leads inevitably to the foundation of our democracy, so the theory states.

Middle eastern nations on the other hand, are rich in national resources, oil in particular. Governments in the middle east have chosen to rely exclusively on oil revenues and not on taxation. The govts of the middle east are able to bypass its citizens, and therefore, make them irrevelant in the production of revenue. Middle eastern states are propped up by oil revenues, making innovation and intellectual development of little concern or value.

Basically, in short, oil has been a curse on intellectual development in the middle east. It has made them lazy and complacent.

Western countries produce oil as well, but countries such as the US or Netherlands were already industrialized and developed countries long before they got into the oil business. The middle east was not before the oil bug hit them.... and they have suffered because of it.

Interesting theory, and I agree...however I think that political culture and mindset are far more relevant to Success or failure. Capitalism is the Best system, it encourages technological advancements, innovations etc but it doens't mix well with Islam or with Animism and Shamanism. It does mix very well with Christianism, Judaism, Shintoism and Atheism. IMO that's one of the core problems of the Middle East, Africa etc their Culture/Mindset hinders them from Modernization, technological progress etc you name it! Why would you want to go to Unviersity if your biggest goal in life is to never miss the Muftis call to prayer or the time for a Siesta? If the majority of the population embodies this mindset, which is the case, you can't except much advancement or progress...
I mean isn't it funny that the enitre west (even eastern europe since they went fro communism to capitalism) is prosperous while not having MUCH natural resources while Africa, South America are underdeveloped as hell. There must be some reason for this huge gap, especially given Africas etc privileged "Land" (Space, Oil,Uranium,Gold etc).

Actually... Russia is basically staying afloat due to its oil industry and the sale of natural gas. Russia is one of the largest energy producers in the world. The two things it sells basically are advanced weapons systems and its natural resources (well... and nuclear reactors to Iran hinking.gif)... and the price of oil is seriously helping the russian government right now.

Of course their oil companies are privately owned now like ours (however the state recently seized the oil companies and put the top execs in jail due to "tax evasion", when in reality it was to keep the russian oligarchs out of politics)

Same goes for the former soviet republics in the Caucasus . The caucasus states are staying afloat by exploiting their share of the resources they control in the caspian sea... natural gas and oil.

No offense man, but what does that have to do with the Thread?

Nothing... and I wasnt trying to be a wise ass... I was just making a factual correction in your statement. I hope didnt come off as me trying to be a jerk. hinking.gif

Oh my bad then, sorry dude

Posted: 8/19/2005 3:51:41 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Islam is so unreformed there have been no real advances in art, literature, science or technology in the Muslim world in 500 years

I certainly agree with that point. These people live and govern like it was still the 1300's. It's as if time has passed them by.

EXACTLY!

This is why we need to go medieval on their asses, it's the only thing they can comprehend. Trying to employ 20-21st century reasoning is futile.

Posted: 8/19/2005 3:54:57 AM EDT

[#19]

Stupid is as stupid does. What do you really expect from that region?

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:02:00 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is theory in political science that states that it is oil that has caused this problem within middle eastern countries.

In western societies... the government receives it revenue from taxation of its citizens. Therefore, advanced western societies benefit from human capital and innovation, for the greater the advance in technology and productivity, the more money a countries citizens can make. The more money that is made, the more the government can collect in taxes.

Because the government burdens the its citizens with the evil of taxation, the people demand that the government be responsive to their wants and desires (no taxation without representation). This dicotomy leads inevitably to the foundation of our democracy, so the theory states.

Middle eastern nations on the other hand, are rich in national resources, oil in particular. Governments in the middle east have chosen to rely exclusively on oil revenues and not on taxation. The govts of the middle east are able to bypass its citizens, and therefore, make them irrevelant in the production of revenue. Middle eastern states are propped up by oil revenues, making innovation and intellectual development of little concern or value.

Basically, in short, oil has been a curse on intellectual development in the middle east. It has made them lazy and complacent.

Western countries produce oil as well, but countries such as the US or Netherlands were already industrialized and developed countries long before they got into the oil business. The middle east was not before the oil bug hit them.... and they have suffered because of it.

Interesting theory, and I agree...however I think that political culture and mindset are far more relevant to Success or failure. Capitalism is the Best system, it encourages technological advancements, innovations etc but it doens't mix well with Islam or with Animism and Shamanism. It does mix very well with Christianism, Judaism, Shintoism and Atheism. IMO that's one of the core problems of the Middle East, Africa etc their Culture/Mindset hinders them from Modernization, technological progress etc you name it! Why would you want to go to Unviersity if your biggest goal in life is to never miss the Muftis call to prayer or the time for a Siesta? If the majority of the population embodies this mindset, which is the case, you can't except much advancement or progress...
I mean isn't it funny that the enitre west (even eastern europe since they went fro communism to capitalism) is prosperous while not having MUCH natural resources while Africa, South America are underdeveloped as hell. There must be some reason for this huge gap, especially given Africas etc privileged "Land" (Space, Oil,Uranium,Gold etc).

Actually... Russia is basically staying afloat due to its oil industry and the sale of natural gas. Russia is one of the largest energy producers in the world. The two things it sells basically are advanced weapons systems and its natural resources (well... and nuclear reactors to Iran )... and the price of oil is seriously helping the russian government right now.

Of course their oil companies are privately owned now like ours (however the state recently seized the oil companies and put the top execs in jail due to "tax evasion", when in reality it was to keep the russian oligarchs out of politics)

Same goes for the former soviet republics in the Caucasus . The caucasus states are staying afloat by exploiting their share of the resources they control in the caspian sea... natural gas and oil.

No offense man, but what does that have to do with the Thread?

Nothing... and I wasnt trying to be a wise ass... I was just making a factual correction in your statement. I hope didnt come off as me trying to be a jerk.

Oh my bad then, sorry dude

my fault. I should have been more clear about where I was coming from

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:12:03 AM EDT

[#21]

I'd like to add something about the Colonialism argument...

Jews have been expulsed, harassed and murdered for centuries. When they got the chance to build an advanced country, pretty much 50 years ago, they took the chance and made something out of it. No if or when or but, they just did it, period. It took them only 50 years to build an advaned country (which I would like to visit btw) with universities, high tech institutes etc out of nothing. Again no gas, gold, uranium, petroleum, just hard work and dedication. The jewish people WANTED an advanced country of their own, they got it because they did what needed to be done.
If Arabs had that kind of apporach and mindset they could do the same, the thing is they don't have that approach and that is the core problem. They want progress? Fine then THEY should do so, change must come from the inside, you cannot help them from the outside by giving them funds and whatnot expecting to see some changes. It's a bit like with freedom: If you want freedom you have to demand it and fight for it if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. If you want an advanced country you have to do the things necessary and do so with dedication and assiduity if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. But instead of working towards a better future what do they DO: they say that a Jewish American conspiracy is at fault for everything, that the crusades are at fault for everything etc etc etc
Frankly I'm not sure IF (in general) Africans, South Americans and Arabs WANT to live a "modern life" in an advanced and modern country...otherwise they would have done the necessary steps, and they had, and still have, all the possibilities to do so....

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:19:23 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
I'd like to add something about the Colonialism argument...

Jews have been expulsed, harassed and murdered for centuries. When they got the chance to build an advanced country, pretty much 50 years ago, they took the chance and made something out of it. No if or when or but, they just did it, period. It took them only 50 years to build an advaned country (which I would like to visit btw) with universities, high tech institutes etc out of nothing. Again no gas, gold, uranium, petroleum, just hard work and dedication. The jewish people WANTED an advanced country of their own, they got it because they did what needed to be done.
If Arabs had that kind of apporach and mindset they could do the same, the thing is they don't have that approach and that is the core problem. They want progress? Fine then THEY should do so, change must come from the inside, you cannot help them from the outside by giving them funds and whatnot expecting to see some changes. It's a bit like with freedom: If you want freedom you have to demand it and fight for it if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. If you want an advanced country you have to do the things necessary and do so with dedication and assiduity if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. But instead of working towards a better future what do they DO: they say that a Jewish American conspiracy is at fault for everything, that the crusades are at fault for everything etc etc etc
Frankly I'm not sure IF (in general) Africans, South Americans and Arabs WANT to live a "modern life" in an advanced and modern country...otherwise they would have done the necessary steps, and they had, and still have, all the possibilities to do so....

Not be racist, but it is noticable that the 'Anglo-Saxon' Socio-political model seems to have produced a slew of modern and highly developed societies governed by the rule of law and the collective good… some people may not agree, but it is true.

ANdy

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:24:24 AM EDT

[#23]

Another interesting post, ANdy.
And I agree with Lord Tebbit.

I've been reading "Barbarians, Marauders and Infidels", a military history of the Middle Ages. It's a very good read and it explains a lot about contemporary Europe as well as about the Middle East. I just finished up on the section about the Muslim conquests. What is amazing to me is how Islam ever produced any worthwhile cultural achievements in the first place. The Arab peoples basically were nomadic and semi nomadic herders and pastoralists who "created" wealth essentially by conducting raids and robberies against each other. With the spread of Islam, basically the only thing that changed is that instead of raiding and robbing each other, they began raiding and robbing infidels.
It seems to me that as of the twenty first century, nothing much has changed.

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:24:25 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
I'd like to add something about the Colonialism argument...

Jews have been expulsed, harassed and murdered for centuries. When they got the chance to build an advanced country, pretty much 50 years ago, they took the chance and made something out of it. No if or when or but, they just did it, period. It took them only 50 years to build an advaned country (which I would like to visit btw) with universities, high tech institutes etc out of nothing. Again no gas, gold, uranium, petroleum, just hard work and dedication. The jewish people WANTED an advanced country of their own, they got it because they did what needed to be done.
If Arabs had that kind of apporach and mindset they could do the same, the thing is they don't have that approach and that is the core problem. They want progress? Fine then THEY should do so, change must come from the inside, you cannot help them from the outside by giving them funds and whatnot expecting to see some changes. It's a bit like with freedom: If you want freedom you have to demand it and fight for it if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. If you want an advanced country you have to do the things necessary and do so with dedication and assiduity if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. But instead of working towards a better future what do they DO: they say that a Jewish American conspiracy is at fault for everything, that the crusades are at fault for everything etc etc etc
Frankly I'm not sure IF (in general) Africans, South Americans and Arabs WANT to live a "modern life" in an advanced and modern country...otherwise they would have done the necessary steps, and they had, and still have, all the possibilities to do so....

You sound as if the Israelis did this all by themselves. They had access to the most advanced western technology and were propped up by massive foreign aid. In addition, they came from Western European countries (and the U.S.) which were advanced industrial societies where they were exposed to a certain level of education and advancement.

Isreal serves as a poor comparsion vis-a-vis other middle eastern states in the region.

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:30:14 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
I'd like to add something about the Colonialism argument...

Jews have been expulsed, harassed and murdered for centuries. When they got the chance to build an advanced country, pretty much 50 years ago, they took the chance and made something out of it. No if or when or but, they just did it, period. It took them only 50 years to build an advaned country (which I would like to visit btw) with universities, high tech institutes etc out of nothing. Again no gas, gold, uranium, petroleum, just hard work and dedication. The jewish people WANTED an advanced country of their own, they got it because they did what needed to be done.
If Arabs had that kind of apporach and mindset they could do the same, the thing is they don't have that approach and that is the core problem. They want progress? Fine then THEY should do so, change must come from the inside, you cannot help them from the outside by giving them funds and whatnot expecting to see some changes. It's a bit like with freedom: If you want freedom you have to demand it and fight for it if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. If you want an advanced country you have to do the things necessary and do so with dedication and assiduity if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. But instead of working towards a better future what do they DO: they say that a Jewish American conspiracy is at fault for everything, that the crusades are at fault for everything etc etc etc
Frankly I'm not sure IF (in general) Africans, South Americans and Arabs WANT to live a "modern life" in an advanced and modern country...otherwise they would have done the necessary steps, and they had, and still have, all the possibilities to do so....

Actually, in order for development to take place, middle eastern states need massive foreign investment, which will most likely have to come from the west. You cannot push ahead, improving one's infrastructure or advancing private industry without an influx of capital. With the proper guidance and foreign investment, middle eastern nations could advance appreciably in the next 20 years.

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:38:30 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd like to add something about the Colonialism argument...

Jews have been expulsed, harassed and murdered for centuries. When they got the chance to build an advanced country, pretty much 50 years ago, they took the chance and made something out of it. No if or when or but, they just did it, period. It took them only 50 years to build an advaned country (which I would like to visit btw) with universities, high tech institutes etc out of nothing. Again no gas, gold, uranium, petroleum, just hard work and dedication. The jewish people WANTED an advanced country of their own, they got it because they did what needed to be done.
If Arabs had that kind of apporach and mindset they could do the same, the thing is they don't have that approach and that is the core problem. They want progress? Fine then THEY should do so, change must come from the inside, you cannot help them from the outside by giving them funds and whatnot expecting to see some changes. It's a bit like with freedom: If you want freedom you have to demand it and fight for it if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. If you want an advanced country you have to do the things necessary and do so with dedication and assiduity if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. But instead of working towards a better future what do they DO: they say that a Jewish American conspiracy is at fault for everything, that the crusades are at fault for everything etc etc etc
Frankly I'm not sure IF (in general) Africans, South Americans and Arabs WANT to live a "modern life" in an advanced and modern country...otherwise they would have done the necessary steps, and they had, and still have, all the possibilities to do so....

You sound as if the Israelis did this all by themselves. They has access to the most advanced western technology and were propped up by massive foreign aid. In addition, they came from Western European countries (and the U.S.) which were advanced industrial scoieties where they were exposed to a certain level of education and advancement.

Isreal serves as a poor comparsion vis-a-vis other middle eastern states in the region.

Well the Israelis didn't do EVERYTHING by themselves but they did a whole lot of it. As for the Technology and the aid; doesn't the entire middle east receive a massive amount of aid? Egypt Jordan etc. It's not jut Israel i think, yet who is the one who makes its own avionics for their F16?

Seomthing like Half of the Jews in Israel are Sephardic jews who are not by definition european or american but Syrian Lebanese and stuff like that. And anyway those who came from advanced societies, who were educated and everything have done something to get a good education, many of them are Uni professors and doctors; how about the millions of muslims living in europe since decades? How many of them have profited from the "framework" of advanced countires in order to get a good education? Not many...

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:41:16 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd like to add something about the Colonialism argument...

Jews have been expulsed, harassed and murdered for centuries. When they got the chance to build an advanced country, pretty much 50 years ago, they took the chance and made something out of it. No if or when or but, they just did it, period. It took them only 50 years to build an advaned country (which I would like to visit btw) with universities, high tech institutes etc out of nothing. Again no gas, gold, uranium, petroleum, just hard work and dedication. The jewish people WANTED an advanced country of their own, they got it because they did what needed to be done.
If Arabs had that kind of apporach and mindset they could do the same, the thing is they don't have that approach and that is the core problem. They want progress? Fine then THEY should do so, change must come from the inside, you cannot help them from the outside by giving them funds and whatnot expecting to see some changes. It's a bit like with freedom: If you want freedom you have to demand it and fight for it if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. If you want an advanced country you have to do the things necessary and do so with dedication and assiduity if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. But instead of working towards a better future what do they DO: they say that a Jewish American conspiracy is at fault for everything, that the crusades are at fault for everything etc etc etc
Frankly I'm not sure IF (in general) Africans, South Americans and Arabs WANT to live a "modern life" in an advanced and modern country...otherwise they would have done the necessary steps, and they had, and still have, all the possibilities to do so....

Actually, in order for development to take place, middle eastern states need massive foreign investment, which will most likely have to come from the west. You cannot push ahead, improving one's infrastructure or advancing private industry without an influx of capital. With the proper guidance and foreign investment, middle eastern nations could advance appreciably in the next 20 years.

Uh… what about the Gazzilions of $$$$ in Oil Revenues the Middle East countries have/had, why not spend some of that on fixing their countries and improving them instead of buying huge and pointless armed forces they cannot use and huge gold plated palaces by the score?

Your Islamic Excuse-Fu is weak…

ANdy

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:46:54 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd like to add something about the Colonialism argument...

Jews have been expulsed, harassed and murdered for centuries. When they got the chance to build an advanced country, pretty much 50 years ago, they took the chance and made something out of it. No if or when or but, they just did it, period. It took them only 50 years to build an advaned country (which I would like to visit btw) with universities, high tech institutes etc out of nothing. Again no gas, gold, uranium, petroleum, just hard work and dedication. The jewish people WANTED an advanced country of their own, they got it because they did what needed to be done.
If Arabs had that kind of apporach and mindset they could do the same, the thing is they don't have that approach and that is the core problem. They want progress? Fine then THEY should do so, change must come from the inside, you cannot help them from the outside by giving them funds and whatnot expecting to see some changes. It's a bit like with freedom: If you want freedom you have to demand it and fight for it if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. If you want an advanced country you have to do the things necessary and do so with dedication and assiduity if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. But instead of working towards a better future what do they DO: they say that a Jewish American conspiracy is at fault for everything, that the crusades are at fault for everything etc etc etc
Frankly I'm not sure IF (in general) Africans, South Americans and Arabs WANT to live a "modern life" in an advanced and modern country...otherwise they would have done the necessary steps, and they had, and still have, all the possibilities to do so....

Actually, in order for development to take place, middle eastern states need massive foreign investment, which will most likely have to come from the west. You cannot push ahead, improving one's infrastructure or advancing private industry without an influx of capital. With the proper guidance and foreign investment, middle eastern nations could advance appreciably in the next 20 years.

Fine then they should start cleaning their countires up ie. get rid of the terrorists and their sympathizers. Then we can talk with them about investment and so on, I'd rather not do any business with a country like saudi arabia or yemen. I've been to Dubai, it was nice and clean but what was striking is how the poeple were. They were well clad, had nice watches and cars but were just a primitive as a poor Beduin riding his camel in the Atlas mountains. These guys have a Mindset that simply doesn' lend itself to progress. And it's really not like these guys are poor or anything, not if you have golden toilets at the airport.They could do some useful stuff, like instore the right to vote instead of building an indoor ski thing, even without the foreign investments, that would show us a sign of goodwill and that would maybe get things going.

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:51:06 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd like to add something about the Colonialism argument...

Jews have been expulsed, harassed and murdered for centuries. When they got the chance to build an advanced country, pretty much 50 years ago, they took the chance and made something out of it. No if or when or but, they just did it, period. It took them only 50 years to build an advaned country (which I would like to visit btw) with universities, high tech institutes etc out of nothing. Again no gas, gold, uranium, petroleum, just hard work and dedication. The jewish people WANTED an advanced country of their own, they got it because they did what needed to be done.
If Arabs had that kind of apporach and mindset they could do the same, the thing is they don't have that approach and that is the core problem. They want progress? Fine then THEY should do so, change must come from the inside, you cannot help them from the outside by giving them funds and whatnot expecting to see some changes. It's a bit like with freedom: If you want freedom you have to demand it and fight for it if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. If you want an advanced country you have to do the things necessary and do so with dedication and assiduity if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. But instead of working towards a better future what do they DO: they say that a Jewish American conspiracy is at fault for everything, that the crusades are at fault for everything etc etc etc
Frankly I'm not sure IF (in general) Africans, South Americans and Arabs WANT to live a "modern life" in an advanced and modern country...otherwise they would have done the necessary steps, and they had, and still have, all the possibilities to do so....

You sound as if the Israelis did this all by themselves. They has access to the most advanced western technology and were propped up by massive foreign aid. In addition, they came from Western European countries (and the U.S.) which were advanced industrial scoieties where they were exposed to a certain level of education and advancement.

Isreal serves as a poor comparsion vis-a-vis other middle eastern states in the region.

Well the Israelis didn't do EVERYTHING by themselves but they did a whole lot of it. As for the Technology and the aid; doesn't the entire middle east receive a massive amount of aid? Egypt Jordan etc. It's not jut Israel i think, yet who is the one who makes its own avionics for their F16?

Seomthing like Half of the Jews in Israel are Sephardic jews who are not by definition european or american but Syrian Lebanese and stuff like that. And anyway those who came from advanced societies, who were educated and everything have done something to get a good education, many of them are Uni professors and doctors; how about the millions of muslims living in europe since decades? How many of them have profited from the "framework" of advanced countires in order to get a good education? Not many...

How many of them actually returned to their non-democratic shitholes after being educated and experiencing freedom

And about the foreign aid... the amount we give middle eastern nations is a drop in the bucket if that compared to the type of captial they really need to develop at any marginal rate.

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:53:33 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd like to add something about the Colonialism argument...

Jews have been expulsed, harassed and murdered for centuries. When they got the chance to build an advanced country, pretty much 50 years ago, they took the chance and made something out of it. No if or when or but, they just did it, period. It took them only 50 years to build an advaned country (which I would like to visit btw) with universities, high tech institutes etc out of nothing. Again no gas, gold, uranium, petroleum, just hard work and dedication. The jewish people WANTED an advanced country of their own, they got it because they did what needed to be done.
If Arabs had that kind of apporach and mindset they could do the same, the thing is they don't have that approach and that is the core problem. They want progress? Fine then THEY should do so, change must come from the inside, you cannot help them from the outside by giving them funds and whatnot expecting to see some changes. It's a bit like with freedom: If you want freedom you have to demand it and fight for it if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. If you want an advanced country you have to do the things necessary and do so with dedication and assiduity if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. But instead of working towards a better future what do they DO: they say that a Jewish American conspiracy is at fault for everything, that the crusades are at fault for everything etc etc etc
Frankly I'm not sure IF (in general) Africans, South Americans and Arabs WANT to live a "modern life" in an advanced and modern country...otherwise they would have done the necessary steps, and they had, and still have, all the possibilities to do so....

Actually, in order for development to take place, middle eastern states need massive foreign investment, which will most likely have to come from the west. You cannot push ahead, improving one's infrastructure or advancing private industry without an influx of capital. With the proper guidance and foreign investment, middle eastern nations could advance appreciably in the next 20 years.

Uh… what about the Gazzilions of $$$$ in Oil Revenues the Middle East countries have/had, why not spend some of that on fixing their countries and improving them instead of buying huge and pointless armed forces they cannot use and huge gold plated palaces by the score?

Your Islamic Excuse-Fu is weak…

ANdy

Definitely true... there is too much corruption and they do make quite a bt of money from oil. But that is pretty much all the money they make... and they cant afford to fund their entire development cost without outside help. No one could you moron. Look at how much foreign debt America owes. I doubt you would say that is due to corruption of lack of us spending our own money

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:54:02 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
And it's really not like these guys are poor or anything, not if you have golden toilets at the airport.

The Middle East is a huge market for Gold Plated toilets… it's fucking true! I've seen them

What is it with Arabs and gold plated crappers?

ANdy

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:58:37 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd like to add something about the Colonialism argument...

Jews have been expulsed, harassed and murdered for centuries. When they got the chance to build an advanced country, pretty much 50 years ago, they took the chance and made something out of it. No if or when or but, they just did it, period. It took them only 50 years to build an advaned country (which I would like to visit btw) with universities, high tech institutes etc out of nothing. Again no gas, gold, uranium, petroleum, just hard work and dedication. The jewish people WANTED an advanced country of their own, they got it because they did what needed to be done.
If Arabs had that kind of apporach and mindset they could do the same, the thing is they don't have that approach and that is the core problem. They want progress? Fine then THEY should do so, change must come from the inside, you cannot help them from the outside by giving them funds and whatnot expecting to see some changes. It's a bit like with freedom: If you want freedom you have to demand it and fight for it if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. If you want an advanced country you have to do the things necessary and do so with dedication and assiduity if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. But instead of working towards a better future what do they DO: they say that a Jewish American conspiracy is at fault for everything, that the crusades are at fault for everything etc etc etc
Frankly I'm not sure IF (in general) Africans, South Americans and Arabs WANT to live a "modern life" in an advanced and modern country...otherwise they would have done the necessary steps, and they had, and still have, all the possibilities to do so....

Actually, in order for development to take place, middle eastern states need massive foreign investment, which will most likely have to come from the west. You cannot push ahead, improving one's infrastructure or advancing private industry without an influx of capital. With the proper guidance and foreign investment, middle eastern nations could advance appreciably in the next 20 years.

Fine then they should start cleaning their countires up ie. get rid of the terrorists and their sympathizers. Then we can talk with them about investment and so on, I'd rather not do any business with a country like saudi arabia or yemen. I've been to Dubai, it was nice and clean but what was striking is how the poeple were. They were well clad, had nice watches and cars but were just a primitive as a poor Beduin riding his camel in the Atlas mountains. These guys have a Mindset that simply doesn' lend itself to progress. And it's really not like these guys are poor or anything, not if you have golden toilets at the airport.They could do some useful stuff, like instore the right to vote instead of building an indoor ski thing, even without the foreign investments, that would show us a sign of goodwill and that would maybe get things going.

The UAE and Kuwait have populations that are less than 1.5 million people. The government makes its money from oil and their citizens get a yearly stipend from the govt which accounts for their share of the proceeds. These people are rich as a result, but they take that oil revenue they earn and turn right around and give it back to the west in the form of consumer goods (Rolexs and Benz).

Sound economic planning and wise investment by their (non-elected and corrupt) leaders is very much needed. That is where western help can make a very significant difference, especially if we committ economic resources in addition to sound economic guidance.

Posted: 8/19/2005 5:07:27 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd like to add something about the Colonialism argument...

Jews have been expulsed, harassed and murdered for centuries. When they got the chance to build an advanced country, pretty much 50 years ago, they took the chance and made something out of it. No if or when or but, they just did it, period. It took them only 50 years to build an advaned country (which I would like to visit btw) with universities, high tech institutes etc out of nothing. Again no gas, gold, uranium, petroleum, just hard work and dedication. The jewish people WANTED an advanced country of their own, they got it because they did what needed to be done.
If Arabs had that kind of apporach and mindset they could do the same, the thing is they don't have that approach and that is the core problem. They want progress? Fine then THEY should do so, change must come from the inside, you cannot help them from the outside by giving them funds and whatnot expecting to see some changes. It's a bit like with freedom: If you want freedom you have to demand it and fight for it if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. If you want an advanced country you have to do the things necessary and do so with dedication and assiduity if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. But instead of working towards a better future what do they DO: they say that a Jewish American conspiracy is at fault for everything, that the crusades are at fault for everything etc etc etc
Frankly I'm not sure IF (in general) Africans, South Americans and Arabs WANT to live a "modern life" in an advanced and modern country...otherwise they would have done the necessary steps, and they had, and still have, all the possibilities to do so....

You sound as if the Israelis did this all by themselves. They has access to the most advanced western technology and were propped up by massive foreign aid. In addition, they came from Western European countries (and the U.S.) which were advanced industrial scoieties where they were exposed to a certain level of education and advancement.

Isreal serves as a poor comparsion vis-a-vis other middle eastern states in the region.

Well the Israelis didn't do EVERYTHING by themselves but they did a whole lot of it. As for the Technology and the aid; doesn't the entire middle east receive a massive amount of aid? Egypt Jordan etc. It's not jut Israel i think, yet who is the one who makes its own avionics for their F16?

Seomthing like Half of the Jews in Israel are Sephardic jews who are not by definition european or american but Syrian Lebanese and stuff like that. And anyway those who came from advanced societies, who were educated and everything have done something to get a good education, many of them are Uni professors and doctors; how about the millions of muslims living in europe since decades? How many of them have profited from the "framework" of advanced countires in order to get a good education? Not many...

How many of them actually returned to their non-democratic shitholes after being educated and experiencing freedom hinking.gif

And about the foreign aid... the amount we give middle eastern nations is a drop in the bucket if that compared to the type of captial they really need to develop at any marginal rate.

Well in Switzerland we have 25% of foreigners mostly Turkish and from the Balkans, the Italians and spaniards aren't included because they have been naturalized a loong while ago. Anyway, in Switzerland there is a trend that some of them are returning to their native lands, as for their education...frankly there isn't much of that. They all fail to get to high school and nearly no one of the muslim/balkan community studies at the Uni.
There are a good number of forign students from the Middle East though, so in the end a couple of them have (hopefully) returned to their country. But that won't solve a thing IMO, since the majority of the country doens't want to modernize and thus the couple of foreign students will be like a drop of water on a hot stone.
What should be done about the funding? If you give them Trillions of dollars it all goes to bin Laden, and to their dictators or ,even better, falls in the "governments" bottomless pit. If you send troops, to liberate them from a despot, you get labeled as a nazi president etc.
Honestly, I think that WE cannot do much to solve that situation RIGHT NOW, if THEY set the "rails" in a favorable way then we can help, that's why I think that they are the ones who need to do something about it, not us. It's like with a bully who's bad at school, you can promise a toy, you can send him to the best private school, you can threaten to punish him. Nothing will happen unless HE decides to do something and also does it.

Posted: 8/19/2005 5:16:53 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd like to add something about the Colonialism argument...

Jews have been expulsed, harassed and murdered for centuries. When they got the chance to build an advanced country, pretty much 50 years ago, they took the chance and made something out of it. No if or when or but, they just did it, period. It took them only 50 years to build an advaned country (which I would like to visit btw) with universities, high tech institutes etc out of nothing. Again no gas, gold, uranium, petroleum, just hard work and dedication. The jewish people WANTED an advanced country of their own, they got it because they did what needed to be done.
If Arabs had that kind of apporach and mindset they could do the same, the thing is they don't have that approach and that is the core problem. They want progress? Fine then THEY should do so, change must come from the inside, you cannot help them from the outside by giving them funds and whatnot expecting to see some changes. It's a bit like with freedom: If you want freedom you have to demand it and fight for it if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. If you want an advanced country you have to do the things necessary and do so with dedication and assiduity if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. But instead of working towards a better future what do they DO: they say that a Jewish American conspiracy is at fault for everything, that the crusades are at fault for everything etc etc etc
Frankly I'm not sure IF (in general) Africans, South Americans and Arabs WANT to live a "modern life" in an advanced and modern country...otherwise they would have done the necessary steps, and they had, and still have, all the possibilities to do so....

Actually, in order for development to take place, middle eastern states need massive foreign investment, which will most likely have to come from the west. You cannot push ahead, improving one's infrastructure or advancing private industry without an influx of capital. With the proper guidance and foreign investment, middle eastern nations could advance appreciably in the next 20 years.

Fine then they should start cleaning their countires up ie. get rid of the terrorists and their sympathizers. Then we can talk with them about investment and so on, I'd rather not do any business with a country like saudi arabia or yemen. I've been to Dubai, it was nice and clean but what was striking is how the poeple were. They were well clad, had nice watches and cars but were just a primitive as a poor Beduin riding his camel in the Atlas mountains. These guys have a Mindset that simply doesn' lend itself to progress. And it's really not like these guys are poor or anything, not if you have golden toilets at the airport.They could do some useful stuff, like instore the right to vote instead of building an indoor ski thing, even without the foreign investments, that would show us a sign of goodwill and that would maybe get things going.

The UAE and Kuwait have populations that are less than 1.5 million people. The government makes its money from oil and their citizens get a yearly stipend from the govt which accounts for their share of the proceeds. These people are rich as a result, but they take that oil revenue they earn and turn right around and give it back to the west in the form of consumer goods (Rolexs and Benz).

Sound economic planning and wise investment by their (non-elected and corrupt) leaders is very much needed. That is where western help can make a very significant difference, especially if we committ economic resources in addition to sound economic guidance.

The same thing has been said about the Saudis for years, and now it is biting us in the ass. I really don't see why we would benefit from it? Ok the oil, but how would that help in curbing terrorism?

Posted: 8/19/2005 5:20:57 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd like to add something about the Colonialism argument...

Jews have been expulsed, harassed and murdered for centuries. When they got the chance to build an advanced country, pretty much 50 years ago, they took the chance and made something out of it. No if or when or but, they just did it, period. It took them only 50 years to build an advaned country (which I would like to visit btw) with universities, high tech institutes etc out of nothing. Again no gas, gold, uranium, petroleum, just hard work and dedication. The jewish people WANTED an advanced country of their own, they got it because they did what needed to be done.
If Arabs had that kind of apporach and mindset they could do the same, the thing is they don't have that approach and that is the core problem. They want progress? Fine then THEY should do so, change must come from the inside, you cannot help them from the outside by giving them funds and whatnot expecting to see some changes. It's a bit like with freedom: If you want freedom you have to demand it and fight for it if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. If you want an advanced country you have to do the things necessary and do so with dedication and assiduity if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. But instead of working towards a better future what do they DO: they say that a Jewish American conspiracy is at fault for everything, that the crusades are at fault for everything etc etc etc
Frankly I'm not sure IF (in general) Africans, South Americans and Arabs WANT to live a "modern life" in an advanced and modern country...otherwise they would have done the necessary steps, and they had, and still have, all the possibilities to do so....

You sound as if the Israelis did this all by themselves. They has access to the most advanced western technology and were propped up by massive foreign aid. In addition, they came from Western European countries (and the U.S.) which were advanced industrial scoieties where they were exposed to a certain level of education and advancement.

Isreal serves as a poor comparsion vis-a-vis other middle eastern states in the region.

Well the Israelis didn't do EVERYTHING by themselves but they did a whole lot of it. As for the Technology and the aid; doesn't the entire middle east receive a massive amount of aid? Egypt Jordan etc. It's not jut Israel i think, yet who is the one who makes its own avionics for their F16?

Seomthing like Half of the Jews in Israel are Sephardic jews who are not by definition european or american but Syrian Lebanese and stuff like that. And anyway those who came from advanced societies, who were educated and everything have done something to get a good education, many of them are Uni professors and doctors; how about the millions of muslims living in europe since decades? How many of them have profited from the "framework" of advanced countires in order to get a good education? Not many...

How many of them actually returned to their non-democratic shitholes after being educated and experiencing freedom

And about the foreign aid... the amount we give middle eastern nations is a drop in the bucket if that compared to the type of captial they really need to develop at any marginal rate.

Well in Switzerland we have 25% of foreigners mostly Turkish and from the Balkans, the Italians and spaniards aren't included because they have been naturalized a loong while ago. Anyway, in Switzerland there is a trend that some of them are returning to their native lands, as for their education...frankly there isn't much of that. They all fail to get to high school and nearly no one of the muslim/balkan community studies at the Uni.
There are a good number of forign students from the Middle East though, so in the end a couple of them have (hopefully) returned to their country. But that won't solve a thing IMO, since the majority of the country doens't want to modernize and thus the couple of foreign students will be like a drop of water on a hot stone.
What should be done about the funding? If you give them Trillions of dollars it all goes to bin Laden, and to their dictators or ,even better, falls in the "governments" bottomless pit. If you send troops, to liberate them from a despot, you get labeled as a nazi president etc.
Honestly, I think that WE cannot do much to solve that situation RIGHT NOW, if THEY set the "rails" in a favorable way then we can help, that's why I think that they are the ones who need to do something about it, not us. It's like with a bully who's bad at school, you can promise a toy, you can send him to the best private school, you can threaten to punish him. Nothing will happen unless HE decides to do something and also does it.

I agree... they have to know what they want and be willing to put in the effort to get it. We cant just hand them a receipe and the right mix of resources and expect to see the finished product we desire. They have to have not only the competence, but also the willingness to see that the necessary effort is made to see the changes through. With that, we are in total agreement.

Now how we get everyone in the middle east on the same page is the $64,000 question.

They have an inherent distrust of westerners... with al jazeera doing such a bang up job I have no idea why

Posted: 8/19/2005 5:27:03 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd like to add something about the Colonialism argument...

Jews have been expulsed, harassed and murdered for centuries. When they got the chance to build an advanced country, pretty much 50 years ago, they took the chance and made something out of it. No if or when or but, they just did it, period. It took them only 50 years to build an advaned country (which I would like to visit btw) with universities, high tech institutes etc out of nothing. Again no gas, gold, uranium, petroleum, just hard work and dedication. The jewish people WANTED an advanced country of their own, they got it because they did what needed to be done.
If Arabs had that kind of apporach and mindset they could do the same, the thing is they don't have that approach and that is the core problem. They want progress? Fine then THEY should do so, change must come from the inside, you cannot help them from the outside by giving them funds and whatnot expecting to see some changes. It's a bit like with freedom: If you want freedom you have to demand it and fight for it if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. If you want an advanced country you have to do the things necessary and do so with dedication and assiduity if necessary, otherwise you won't get it. But instead of working towards a better future what do they DO: they say that a Jewish American conspiracy is at fault for everything, that the crusades are at fault for everything etc etc etc
Frankly I'm not sure IF (in general) Africans, South Americans and Arabs WANT to live a "modern life" in an advanced and modern country...otherwise they would have done the necessary steps, and they had, and still have, all the possibilities to do so....

You sound as if the Israelis did this all by themselves. They has access to the most advanced western technology and were propped up by massive foreign aid. In addition, they came from Western European countries (and the U.S.) which were advanced industrial scoieties where they were exposed to a certain level of education and advancement.

Isreal serves as a poor comparsion vis-a-vis other middle eastern states in the region.

Well the Israelis didn't do EVERYTHING by themselves but they did a whole lot of it. As for the Technology and the aid; doesn't the entire middle east receive a massive amount of aid? Egypt Jordan etc. It's not jut Israel i think, yet who is the one who makes its own avionics for their F16?

Seomthing like Half of the Jews in Israel are Sephardic jews who are not by definition european or american but Syrian Lebanese and stuff like that. And anyway those who came from advanced societies, who were educated and everything have done something to get a good education, many of them are Uni professors and doctors; how about the millions of muslims living in europe since decades? How many of them have profited from the "framework" of advanced countires in order to get a good education? Not many...

How many of them actually returned to their non-democratic shitholes after being educated and experiencing freedom

And about the foreign aid... the amount we give middle eastern nations is a drop in the bucket if that compared to the type of captial they really need to develop at any marginal rate.

Well in Switzerland we have 25% of foreigners mostly Turkish and from the Balkans, the Italians and spaniards aren't included because they have been naturalized a loong while ago. Anyway, in Switzerland there is a trend that some of them are returning to their native lands, as for their education...frankly there isn't much of that. They all fail to get to high school and nearly no one of the muslim/balkan community studies at the Uni.
There are a good number of forign students from the Middle East though, so in the end a couple of them have (hopefully) returned to their country. But that won't solve a thing IMO, since the majority of the country doens't want to modernize and thus the couple of foreign students will be like a drop of water on a hot stone.
What should be done about the funding? If you give them Trillions of dollars it all goes to bin Laden, and to their dictators or ,even better, falls in the "governments" bottomless pit. If you send troops, to liberate them from a despot, you get labeled as a nazi president etc.
Honestly, I think that WE cannot do much to solve that situation RIGHT NOW, if THEY set the "rails" in a favorable way then we can help, that's why I think that they are the ones who need to do something about it, not us. It's like with a bully who's bad at school, you can promise a toy, you can send him to the best private school, you can threaten to punish him. Nothing will happen unless HE decides to do something and also does it.

I agree... they have to know what they want and be willing to put in the effort to get it. We cant just hand them a receipe and the right mix of resources and expect to see the finished product we desire. They have to have not only the competence, but also the willingness to see that the necessary effort is made to see the changes through. With that, we are in total agreement.

Now how we get everyone in the middle east on the same page is the $64,000 question.

They have an inherent distrust of westerners... with al jazeera doing such a bang up job I have no idea why

oh and don't forget the nice Intellectuals going by the name of Ramadan or al Bakri

Have you ever been to Geneva?

Posted: 8/19/2005 5:28:29 AM EDT

[#37]

fortunately... no.

Posted: 8/19/2005 5:28:34 AM EDT

[#38]

am i reading this right? i know i am running late for work and just scanned this,,, but did someone say "invest" in the middle east by westeren states?

WTF?

them fuckers are loaded and and the ones that arent.. well thats thier proplem..

ok ill invest over there...

put me down for some shares of a concrete company and a black top comoany...

wait cant forget the paint for the lines...

man thats gonna be a GREAT parking lot!!!

$4 bucks all day parking with a $3 early bird promo.... < no in and out >

ETA..
you want me to invest?
ok.. i gotta fill up my truck... hows that for a damn investment... !

Posted: 8/19/2005 5:33:33 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
fortunately... no.

the Ramadan guy had an islamic school or whatever that is called over there

now he is a professor at a catholic university in Indiana called Notre Dame (?)

Posted: 8/19/2005 5:45:56 AM EDT

[#40]

I can sum up the problems of islam pretty succinctly...

[Apocolypse Now Helicopter guy on]/ F*cking Savages......./[Apocolypse Now Helicopter guy off]

Posted: 8/19/2005 5:58:22 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
I can sum up the problems of islam pretty succinctly...

[Apocolypse Now Helicopter guy on]/ F*cking Savages......./[Apocolypse Now Helicopter guy off]

that was constructive.... and contributed volumes to the lively discussion we were having.

Posted: 8/19/2005 6:32:10 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I can sum up the problems of islam pretty succinctly...

[Apocolypse Now Helicopter guy on]/ F*cking Savages......./[Apocolypse Now Helicopter guy off]

that was constructive.... and contributed volumes to the lively discussion we were having.

I wasn't trying to be constructive, I was trying to be realistic.

But instead of lofting all sorts of heavy political theory and other jibber jabber about what is the root cause of problems in the middle east, how about we look at history. The history of islam, which of course dominates and pretty much defines culture in the middle east.

Oil is an excuse. The nature and history of islam is the cause. This is a "religion" that has not been able to live peaceably with any of its neighbors for any time during its existance. From its founding it has been engaged in one way or another with the "non-believers". It caused the Crusades (by trying to encroach and envelop traditional Christian areas in the Holy Lands)....the coming of the Maahdi in North Africa during the 1800's, the attack on Khartoum by his army with the implicitly stated goal of destroying all the infidels within.

It is not in the general overall nature of islam to live peacefully with anyone. That is the real problem in the middle east and muslim dominated sections of the world. It is a backwards, stagnant religion, which would have the fundamentalists return their enclaves, indeed the entire world if given the chance to the dark ages....

Yeah, sure oil is part of the problem, it is a supporting actor in the play....but it, nor any sort of poly sci egghead theory is not the root of the problem. It is much, much simpler.....

Posted: 8/19/2005 7:02:19 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

I ..the coming of the Maahdi in North Africa during the 1800's, the attack on Khartoum by his army with the implicitly stated goal of destroying all the infidels within..

We need another Lord Kitchener!!!!! He knew what to do… the Battle of Omdurman.

At the Battle of Omdurman (September 2, 1898) an army commanded by the British General Sir Horatio Kitchener defeated the army of the Khalifa, the 'Dervishes'. It was a bloody demonstration of the superiority of machine guns and artillery over older weapons and marked the successful end of the British efforts to re-conquer the Sudan.

Omdurman is today a suburb of Khartoum in central Sudan, with a population of some 1.5 million. The village of Omdurman was chosen in 1884 as the base of operations by the Mahdi, Muhammad Ahmad. It remained the centre for his theocratic empire after his death in 1885.

Battle account

The battle took place at Kerreri, 11 km north of Omdurman. Kitchener commanded a force of 8,000 British regulars and a mixed force of 17,000 Sudanese and Egyptian soldiers. Kitchener arrayed his force in an arc around the village of Egeiga close to the bank of the Nile, where a gunboat flotilla waited in support, facing a wide flat plain with hills rising to the left and right. The British and Egyptian cavalry was placed on either flank.

The Dervish force of around 50,000, including only 3,000 cavalry, was split into five groups; a force of 8,000 under Azbak was arrayed directly opposite the British, in a shallow arc along a mile of a low ridge leading onto the plain; the other Dervish forces were initially concealed from Kitchener's force. Khalifa Addallah al-Taashi and 17,000 men were concealed behind the Surgham hills to the west and rear of Azbak's force, 20,000 more were positioned to the north-west close to the front behind the Kerreri hills, commanded by Ali-Wad-Helu and Sheikh ed-Din. A final group of around 8,000 were gathered on the slope at the right flank of Azbak's force.

The battle began in the early morning, at around 6 a.m. After the clashes of the previous day, the 8,000 men under Azbak advanced straight at the waiting British, quickly followed by about 8,000 of those waiting to the north-west. It was a mixed force of musketmen and spearmen. The British artillery opened fire at around 2,750 m and the Dervish forces were badly reduced before they even came into range of the Maxim guns and volley fire. The frontal attack ended quickly with around 4,000 Dervish casualties, none coming closer than 50 m to the British trenches. A flanking move from the Dervish right was also checked and there were untidy clashes on the opposite flank which scattered the Dervish forces there.

Kitchener was anxious to occupy Omdurman before the remaining Dervish forces could withdraw there and he directed the army to advance on Omdurman. The army was ordered into columns and began the advance. The British light cavalry regiment, the 21st Lancers, was sent ahead to clear the plain to the settlement. They had a tough time of it. The 400 strong regiment clashed with a force of around 2,500 infantry and drove them back at some cost (three Victoria Crosses were awarded). On the larger scale the Britsh advance allowed the Khalifa to re-organize his forces. He still had over 30,000 men in the field and directed his main reserve to attack from the west while ordering the forces to the north-west to attack simultaneously over the Kerreri Hills.

Kitchener's force wheeled left in echelon to advance up Surgham ridge and then southwards. To protect the rear, a brigade of 3,000, mainly Sudanese and commanded by Hector MacDonald, was reinforced with Maxims and artillery and followed the main force at around 1,350 m. Curiously the supplies and wounded around Egeiga were left almost unprotected.

MacDonald was alerted to the presence of around 15,000 enemy troops moving towards him from the west, out from behind Surgham. He wheeled his force and lined them up to face the enemy charge. The Dervish infantry attacked in two prongs and MacDonald was forced to repeatedly re-order his batallions. The brigade maintained a punishing fire. Kitchener, now aware of the problem, "began to throw his brigades about as if they were companies". MacDonald's brigade was soon reinforced and the Dervish forces were forced back and finally broke or died where they stood. The Dervish forces to the north had regrouped too late and entered the clash only after the force in the central valley had been routed. They pressed Macdonald's Sudanese brigades hard, but the Lincolnshire Regiment was quickly brought up and with sustained section volleys repulsed the advance. A final, despairing and hugely brave, cavalry charge of around 500 men was utterly destroyed. The march on Omdurman was resumed at about 11.30.

Around 10,000 Dervishes were killed and 15,000 wounded, 5,000 were taken prisoner. Kitchener's force lost 48 men with 382 wounded, the majority from MacDonald's command. The Khalifa escaped and survived until 1899, when he was killed in the Battle of Umm Diwaykarat.

Kitchener was en-nobled as a baron, Kitchener of Khartoum, for his victory.

Winston Churchill was present at the battle as a reporter and he rode with the 21st Lancers. His account is the basis of this article.

Posted: 8/19/2005 7:26:16 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

We need another Lord Kitchener!!!!! He knew what to do… the Battle of Omdurman.

Hear, hear! God Save the Queen (Victoria!)

Except now the the muzzie foe refuses to come out and fight like men......

Posted: 8/19/2005 10:07:29 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Quoted:

We need another Lord Kitchener!!!!! He knew what to do… the Battle of Omdurman.

Hear, hear! God Save the Queen (Victoria!)

Except now the the muzzie foe refuses to come out and fight like men......

They rarely did…

ANdy

Posted: 8/19/2005 10:15:35 AM EDT

[#46]

But back then, as in the case of this battle, they would come out in force at least sometime...

Can you imagine 50,000 muslim terrorist scumbags coming out for a fight now? Talk about a target rich environment...and the chance to wipe out that many in a single battle, man that just does not happen today

Posted: 8/19/2005 10:36:49 AM EDT

[#47]

Well, former muslims who got curious about their "faith" also state the islam needs a reformation, and that the root cause of the violence by muslims around the world is the TEXT OF THE KORAN ITSELF.

There is no such thing as a "moderate, peace loving muslim" according to those who now reject the faith.

This isn't ME saying this, but no less than a former member of Fatah:

www.therothshow.com/demos/hour1jun3.mp3
www.therothshow.com/demos/hour2jun3.mp3
www.therothshow.com/demos/hour3jun3.mp3

But of course, apologists, liberals, cowards, and other agendists refuse to acknowledge that fact.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - UK - Tebbit attacks 'unreformed' Islam

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