UK - Police surveyed on carrying guns

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - UK - Police surveyed on carrying guns

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:42:23 PM EDT

Police surveyed on carrying guns

Previous surveys found most officers wanted to remain unarmed
Every police officer in England and Wales is to be asked whether they think they should carry guns.
The Police Federation survey of all 140,000 officers follows the shooting of Pc Sharon Beshenivsky in Bradford last month.

Federation chairwoman Jan Berry called for more armed police on the streets.

But Lord Brian Mackenzie, former president of the Superintendents' Association of England and Wales, said that would lead to more violent crime.

Home Office minister Hazel Blears also recently rejected calls for officers to be routinely armed, saying it could endanger the police's relationship with the public.

'Dereliction of duty'

The last such survey by the Federation took place three years ago and only involved 13,000 rank-and-file officers.

It found an overwhelming 79% were against being armed.

Despite rising gun crime, the proportion wanting to carry firearms had increased just 1% since a previous poll in 1995.

Federation chairwoman Jan Berry recently said that even if members rejected being routinely armed, more firearms officers were needed on the streets.

For the police to say they don't want to be armed and to give all sorts of spurious reasons why they shouldn't be armed is a dereliction of duty
Victor Bates

"We should be looking very closely to increasing the number of firearms officers we have," she said in the wake of Pc Beshenivsky's shooting.

"At the moment we have less than five percent trained to carry firearms and we are not convinced that that provides the police service with sufficient resilience."

Victor Bates, whose wife Marion was shot dead during a robbery in their jewellery shop in Nottingham, believes armed officers may have prevented her death.

"If you have got armed police on the street people are not going to circle us as a target as they did that day," he said.

"And I think for the police to say they don't want to be armed and to give all sorts of spurious reasons why they shouldn't be armed, is a dereliction of duty."

'Time not right'

However, Britain's most senior police chief, Met Commissioner Sir Ian Blair, has said he would like to see the police remain unarmed.

Chris Fox, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, has also said "the time is not right".

Meanwhile, plans by Home Secretary Charles Clarke to modernise policing have come under sustained attack from the Conservatives and Lib Dems.

Mr Clarke wants to merge 43 police forces in England and Wales into as few as 12 regional constabularies.

The plans were announced after a report by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) said forces with fewer than 4,000 officers were not equipped to fight sophisticated modern crime.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4544188.stm

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:49:46 PM EDT

[#1]

Although I believe the population should be at least as well armed as the authorities, that is just plain stupid.

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:51:45 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Although I believe the population should be at least as well armed as the authorities, that is just plain stupid.

The Police in Britain are not the most educated of people...

ANdy

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:53:31 PM EDT

[#3]

Look at the bright t side you could own London with a cricket bat and a sword
Oh yeah its alreadt been done and is occuring right now

Posted: 12/20/2005 12:02:07 AM EDT

[#4]

I'm afraid that a dislike of firearms has become common culture in the UK, even among the military.

I know plenty of British military folks that are shooters, but I was suprised at how many of them don't care for guns at all.

A couple of years ago I tried talking an Army and RAAF guy into coming shooting with me; I thought they would jump at the chance to get some time on an AR and a 1911, but they both said no thanks as they had no interest in it. They were pretty much of the opinion that guns are icky.

I don't intend to offend my friends on the other side of the pond that have a sense of self preservation, but it's a shame to see that many of the men of Britian have become so pussified.

Unfortuantely that kind of thinking has spread to the other commonwealth nations over recent years, and to a lesser extent hee in the US.

ETA: I suppose this was an appropriate topic for post #303

Posted: 12/20/2005 12:44:18 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Look at the bright t side you could own London with a cricket bat and a sword
Oh yeah its alreadt been done and is occuring right now

Only for about an hour or less, still it'd be a fairly effective hour.

Still not sure how HAzel Bears reckons arming the bobby's will lead to more armed crime, unless of course the average copper is in the habit of leaving his sidearm in the toilet at the supermarket... Oh!

/PHil

Posted: 12/20/2005 12:57:01 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Look at the bright t side you could own London with a cricket bat and a sword
Oh yeah its alreadt been done and is occuring right now

Police is unarmed in UK because people, by tradition, don't trust police forces, as they see them as emanation of government power. An armed policemen is seen as someone that has power of death and life on other people (take a look of old talkbacks on BBC News on line...)

When the first metropolitan police corp was formed, the people in London called them "The Lobsters gang", referring to the orange colour of the policemen's uniforms.

Due to this distrust, Brits don't like to have armed policemen unless also the criminal are showing off their guns.

I must say, anyway, that killing a police officer in UK, armed or not armed, brings directly to life imprisonement sentence.

To my opinion, things are not going to change in UK.

Posted: 12/20/2005 1:13:45 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Look at the bright t side you could own London with a cricket bat and a sword
Oh yeah its alreadt been done and is occuring right now

Only for about an hour or less, still it'd be a fairly effective hour.

Still not sure how HAzel Bears reckons arming the bobby's will lead to more armed crime, unless of course the average copper is in the habit of leaving his sidearm in the toilet at the supermarket... Oh!

/PHil

Don't bet on the awesome ability of a Police Tactical Firearms Unit to deal with you...

... The Battle of Hackney anyone?

ANdy

Posted: 12/20/2005 1:44:05 AM EDT

[#8]

Okay, then arm the 21% who want to be armed. The others might come around then.

Posted: 12/20/2005 1:49:20 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
...unless of course the average copper is in the habit of leaving his sidearm in the toilet at the supermarket... Oh!

/PHil

Uh oh... this reminds me something happened in my battalion.

A guy just arrived from the training course in my unit (Military Police Paratroops) went to a disco.

When arrived in the lockers, he showed his badge and asked the girl to put his jacket (he was in civilian clothes...) in the wardrobe. Then he remembered that he brought also his gun with him. He asked to the girl to keep also the holster and his brand new Beretta 92SB (LOADED!!!) because he didn't feel comfortable dancing armed.

Few minutes later the local Gendarmerie (that in Italy is also Military Police...) unit went to a routinary visit to the same disco and asked the girl at the lockers if everything was ok.

The girl answered: "Oh yes, all well. We have one of yours here..."
Gendarmerie officer: "How do you know is one of us?"
The girl: "Because he showed me the badge and left here his gun"
Gendarmerie officer (startling): "Really? can you call this guy? "

The guy was brought right back to the barracks, reported to his commander, and after the 5 qualification jumps with the parachute spent the rest of the tour of duty working in the battalion kitchen. He NEVER saw action like we did in the same period.

Posted: 12/20/2005 3:27:18 AM EDT

[#10]

Someone here said that the citizens of Britain were subjects. It's not surprising, since they have been subjects to a Monarchy for at least a thousand years. They're used to it.

Posted: 12/20/2005 1:50:40 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Although I believe the population should be at least as well armed as the authorities, that is just plain stupid.

The Police in Britain are not the most educated of people...

ANdy

That` true in most places.Unfortuntely.

Posted: 12/20/2005 2:06:16 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Victor Bates, whose wife Marion was shot dead during a robbery in their jewellery shop in Nottingham, believes armed officers may have prevented her death.

"If you have got armed police on the street people are not going to circle us as a target as they did that day," he said.

It's not the police's job to protect you.

Posted: 12/20/2005 2:18:53 PM EDT

[#13]

WTF is wrong with you guys ANdy?

Posted: 12/20/2005 2:22:00 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
I'm afraid that a dislike of firearms has become common culture in the UK, even among the military.

I know plenty of British military folks that are shooters, but I was suprised at how many of them don't care for guns at all.

A couple of years ago I tried talking an Army and RAAF guy into coming shooting with me; I thought they would jump at the chance to get some time on an AR and a 1911, but they both said no thanks as they had no interest in it. They were pretty much of the opinion that guns are icky.

I don't intend to offend my friends on the other side of the pond that have a sense of self preservation, but it's a shame to see that many of the men of Britian have become so pussified.

Unfortuantely that kind of thinking has spread to the other commonwealth nations over recent years, and to a lesser extent hee in the US.

ETA: I suppose this was an appropriate topic for post #303

Thats just funny.

Posted: 12/20/2005 2:29:48 PM EDT

[#15]

If civilians cannot have handguns, the police should neither

Posted: 12/20/2005 2:40:19 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
WTF is wrong with you guys ANdy?

Don't look at me! I'm Irish! Want to own a full auto pistol? Legal in Ireland....

ANdy

Posted: 12/20/2005 2:42:19 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
WTF is wrong with you guys ANdy?

Don't look at me! I'm Irish! Want to own a full auto pistol? Legal in Ireland....

ANdy

Really?

When I was over in Ireland in August.. I was told that it was near impossible to get a firearm now.

Posted: 12/20/2005 2:47:37 PM EDT

[#18]

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Posted: 12/20/2005 2:48:49 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

SNIP

Federation chairwoman Jan Berry called for more armed police on the streets.

But Lord Brian Mackenzie, former president of the Superintendents' Association of England and Wales, said that would lead to more violent crime.

SNIP

If this is truly the case, they need to fire the police they have, and hire those that are trustworthy and do not participate in violent crime.

Posted: 12/20/2005 3:01:36 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Look at the bright t side you could own London with a cricket bat and a sword
Oh yeah its alreadt been done and is occuring right now

Police is unarmed in UK because people, by tradition, don't trust police forces, as they see them as emanation of government power. An armed policemen is seen as someone that has power of death and life on other people (take a look of old talkbacks on BBC News on line...)

When the first metropolitan police corp was formed, the people in London called them "The Lobsters gang", referring to the orange colour of the policemen's uniforms.

Due to this distrust, Brits don't like to have armed policemen unless also the criminal are showing off their guns.

I must say, anyway, that killing a police officer in UK, armed or not armed, brings directly to life imprisonement sentence.

To my opinion, things are not going to change in UK.

The UK will change when another Hitler arises from the ashes of the EU; hope they have babelfish bookmarked, the US may not help the next time.

Strange country - wants to bask in the Empire, yet let it dissolve.

Posted: 12/20/2005 3:09:03 PM EDT

[#21]

Andy this give you any ideas?

Posted: 12/20/2005 3:14:23 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

I must say, anyway, that killing a police officer in UK, armed or not armed, brings directly to life imprisonement sentence.

Wow, so harsh....

Posted: 12/20/2005 11:05:15 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
WTF is wrong with you guys ANdy?

Don't look at me! I'm Irish! Want to own a full auto pistol? Legal in Ireland....

ANdy

Really?

When I was over in Ireland in August.. I was told that it was near impossible to get a firearm now.

Someone told you lies....

A gun is just a 'gun' in Ireland, the Guarda (Police) don't descriminate between a BB gun and a machine gun....You show your local Police Super you have a 'reasonable' reason to own a weapon and you can have one. Pistols, SBR's, AR's, SBR shotties, silencers, all legal.

ANdy

Posted: 12/20/2005 11:21:44 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
WTF is wrong with you guys ANdy?

Don't look at me! I'm Irish! Want to own a full auto pistol? Legal in Ireland....

ANdy

Really?

When I was over in Ireland in August.. I was told that it was near impossible to get a firearm now.

Someone told you lies....

A gun is just a 'gun' in Ireland, the Guarda (Police) don't descriminate between a BB gun and a machine gun....You show your local Police Super you have a 'reasonable' reason to own a weapon and you can have one. Pistols, SBR's, AR's, SBR shotties, silencers, all legal.

ANdy

What did you tell him YOUR reason was?

Posted: 12/20/2005 11:37:58 PM EDT

[#25]

Police...without guns? That's just stupid. Do they arrest them by bludgeoning them?

Posted: 12/21/2005 12:43:03 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

What did you tell him YOUR reason was?

'Target shooting' is considered 'Good Reason'....

ANdy

Posted: 12/21/2005 1:47:34 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

What did you tell him YOUR reason was?

'Target shooting' is considered 'Good Reason'....

ANdy

AR with or without gas system?

Posted: 12/21/2005 2:00:51 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

What did you tell him YOUR reason was?

'Target shooting' is considered 'Good Reason'....

ANdy

AR with or without gas system?

With!

ANdy

Posted: 12/21/2005 2:12:55 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

What did you tell him YOUR reason was?

'Target shooting' is considered 'Good Reason'....

ANdy

AR with or without gas system?

With!

ANdy

Go-fast switch?

Posted: 12/21/2005 3:32:22 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
WTF is wrong with you guys ANdy?

Don't look at me! I'm Irish! Want to own a full auto pistol? Legal in Ireland....

ANdy

Really?

When I was over in Ireland in August.. I was told that it was near impossible to get a firearm now.

Someone told you lies....

A gun is just a 'gun' in Ireland, the Guarda (Police) don't descriminate between a BB gun and a machine gun....You show your local Police Super you have a 'reasonable' reason to own a weapon and you can have one. Pistols, SBR's, AR's, SBR shotties, silencers, all legal.

ANdy

Sounds like Massachusetts. Many of our police, judges, and politicians in Mass. are Irish. We have very restrictive gun laws here. Hmmm.....

Posted: 12/21/2005 3:46:44 AM EDT

[#31]

I don't understand how they could think that armed police = "more violent crime" ????

- rem

Posted: 12/21/2005 4:06:03 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
I don't understand how they could think that armed police = "more violent crime" ????

- rem

British people in general dislike guns and the people who have them. Full stop.

Posted: 12/21/2005 4:20:35 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
I don't understand how they could think that armed police = "more violent crime" ????

- rem

Total UK police bullshit: criminals are already armed, and they can kill for any reason, even because they didn't get enough money or they are pissed off for other reason...

Posted: 12/21/2005 4:21:09 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

What did you tell him YOUR reason was?

'Target shooting' is considered 'Good Reason'....

ANdy

AR with or without gas system?

With!

ANdy

Only in NI?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - UK - Police surveyed on carrying guns

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