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Posted: 12/1/2016 1:03:40 PM EDT
[#1]
Shit.
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Posted: 12/1/2016 1:17:31 PM EDT
[#2]
Damn, and I was about to send my 80% completed 601 receiver..
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Posted: 12/1/2016 1:21:52 PM EDT
[#3]
I wouldnt send ANYTHING till this gets resolved. Im not sure what they'll do? I hope they arent destroyed? Hopefully its just a routine check by maybe a junior ATF agent that needs further clarification.
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Posted: 12/1/2016 1:32:24 PM EDT
[#4]
Any pictures of how your lower looked before it headed their way? I'm wondering why they would set it aside for further review.
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Posted: 12/1/2016 2:17:17 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any pictures of how your lower looked before it headed their way? I'm wondering why they would set it aside for further review. only thing I can come up with, is that it somehow didn't have the required engraving on it NAME, LOCATION, CALIBER, SN etc.. or font height, depth. yeah, I know I will get the "but ATF doesn't require that for home builds" which would be good if you did the entire work from start to finish yourself. but, if you're sending that once 80 percent lower as a 100 percent lower out to have finish work to a FFL, then how is he suppose to log that receiver in his book if the required markings isn't on it???? |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 2:21:21 PM EDT
[#6]
Just off the phone with Victor at US Anodizing. Here's the poop. The ATF agent has concerns regarding the fake sear pin engraving. Wants to check and make sure that that engraving doesn't classify those receivers as MGs, and I don't mean the car. Victor's only holding aside about 4 receivers that have these "sear pin " engravings. Sounds like all others are fine. Uppers arent even on the radar I guess.
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Posted: 12/1/2016 2:23:23 PM EDT
[#7]
Damn. I've been waiting to send him my transferable lower to him to be redone. But his sight always says do not send anymore work.
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Posted: 12/1/2016 2:31:09 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just off the phone with Victor at US Anodizing. Here's the poop. The ATF agent has concerns regarding the fake sear pin engraving. Wants to check and make sure that that engraving doesn't classify those receivers as MGs, and I don't mean the car. Victor's only holding aside about 4 receivers that have these "sear pin " engravings. Sounds like all others are fine. Uppers arent even on the radar I guess. What! How could that even remotely be considered a mg. Out of curiosity did you mill the shelf down and remove the sear bump? |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 2:36:09 PM EDT
[#9]
Is the sear pin engraving in the actual spot for the sear pin? I thought the engraved ones were offset a bit.
If its in the correct spot where the sear pin would actually be, I could see the ATF being the ATF about it. |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 2:37:29 PM EDT
[#10]
Doesn't Troy and Colt put these sear pin engravings on their retro guns?
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Posted: 12/1/2016 2:43:19 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any pictures of how your lower looked before it headed their way? I'm wondering why they would set it aside for further review. Heres a pic showing the "issue". This is the actual receiver in question.  Attached File |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 2:45:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is the sear pin engraving in the actual spot for the sear pin? I thought the engraved ones were offset a bit. If its in the correct spot where the sear pin would actually be, I could see the ATF being the ATF about it. Good question. I'll have to ask Braceman that one. He did mine. |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 2:51:11 PM EDT
[#13]
What! How could that even remotely be considered a mg. Out of curiosity did you mill the shelf down and remove the sear bump?
My receiver was not cut to allow an auto sear and Braceman tells me he offsets the engraving slightly. This info has been passed on to Victor as well. |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 2:58:23 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just off the phone with Victor at US Anodizing. Here's the poop. The ATF agent has concerns regarding the fake sear pin engraving. Wants to check and make sure that that engraving doesn't classify those receivers as MGs, and I don't mean the car. Victor's only holding aside about 4 receivers that have these "sear pin " engravings. Sounds like all others are fine. Uppers arent even on the radar I guess. I thought it might be that or a full FCG pocket. Looking at your picture, the faux sear pin engraving is clearly offset to the rear - over 1/16" off. I'm thinking it's just a new agent who wants to be thorough. I expect they will spend a little more time with it and let it go. |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 3:04:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What! How could that even remotely be considered a mg. Out of curiosity did you mill the shelf down and remove the sear bump? My receiver was not cut to allow an auto sear and Braceman tells me he offsets the engraving slightly. This info has been passed on to Victor as well. your lower is cut out to not take a mil spec. auto sear only, dias thats different. |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 3:11:27 PM EDT
[#16]
As usual
FATF |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 3:11:40 PM EDT
[#17]
So much for "off the books".
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Posted: 12/1/2016 3:13:59 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So much for "off the books". This is why you anodize it before finishing up the 80%. |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 3:33:37 PM EDT
[#19]
Not a bad idea.
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Posted: 12/1/2016 4:17:38 PM EDT
[#20]
If the issue is with the fake auto-sear engraving, it is likely a new agent who doesn't know about them.
It should be settled in short order. There was a similar thing on AKfiles in which an ATF Agent gave a guy some grief for having the selector markings and notches on his AK. The agent thought the markings and notches were what made an AK full-auto. |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 4:26:42 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the issue is with the fake auto-sear engraving, it is likely a new agent who doesn't know about them. It should be settled in short order. There was a similar thing on AKfiles in which an ATF Agent gave a guy some grief for having the selector markings and notches on his AK. The agent thought the markings and notches were what made an AK full-auto. |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 4:28:15 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
how is he suppose to log that receiver in his book if the required markings isn't on it???? Same as any other unserialled firearm, the instructions for which are provided to every single FFL holder, if they read their regs. Unserialled receivers are logged as "NSN" (no serial number). |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 4:37:20 PM EDT
[#23]
I have had 5 receivers done by Braceman and for some reason I just did not want to have the sear pins engraved. It may be from my days of being an FFL but I am so glad now I did not have him do it.
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Posted: 12/1/2016 4:42:35 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same as any other unserialled firearm, the instructions for which are provided to every single FFL holder, if they read their regs. Unserialled receivers are logged as "NSN" (no serial number). i dont think he will take them with out serial numbers. |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 5:03:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i dont think he will take them with out serial numbers. Yeah, and that's fine as his business policy - just pointing out it's not illegal or even that unusual, especially for those who deal routinely with older (pre-1968) firearms, to acquire and dispose of firearms with no serial numbers. |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 5:49:43 PM EDT
[#26]
My receiver has a serial number on it. A buddy of mine passed away unexpectedly on Easter and this is a tribute gun to him. I used his birthday for it.
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Posted: 12/1/2016 5:55:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My receiver has a serial number on it. A buddy of mine passed away unexpectedly on Easter and this is a tribute gun to him. I used his birthday for it. sorry to hear. hopefully it all gets resolved quickly. im working on a gray anodize too. hopefully i can help the retro crowd. |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 6:04:27 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
sorry to hear. hopefully it all gets resolved quickly. im working on a gray anodize too. hopefully i can help the retro crowd. Thanks. That would be great. We need some competition.
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Posted: 12/1/2016 6:30:03 PM EDT
[#29]
So when this is all done is he taking jobs again to anodize receivers? I can't find anyone else to do one and any color worth a damn.
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Posted: 12/1/2016 6:35:27 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is why you anodize it before finishing up the 80%. That might make it even worse - they could still accuse you of marking where the sear pin goes. With it machined out, at least they can't argue intent. |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 6:46:12 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That might make it even worse - they could still accuse you of marking where the sear pin goes. With it machined out, at least they can't argue intent. Lol... I've marked a hunk of non gun aluminum with a sear pin mark that's 1/16" from where a real one would be. BS like that is why the inspecting agent should be able to sued for being ignorant. |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 6:47:01 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So when this is all done is he taking jobs again to anodize receivers? I can't find anyone else to do one and any color worth a damn. I don't think so, you'd have to email Victor. |
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Posted: 12/1/2016 6:57:34 PM EDT
[#33]
Hopefully the ATF gets reined in soon.
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Posted: 12/1/2016 7:11:05 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And the orange paint on tracer tips make them glow... I guess if we paint our flash hiders orange they will ignore them as toys? |
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Posted: 12/3/2016 11:06:14 AM EDT
[#35]
A lot of irrational fear over one uninformed ATF agent that is seeking clarification. Just wait and see how it shakes out before you start digging holes for your lowers with a sear pin engraving.
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Posted: 12/3/2016 11:50:02 AM EDT
[#36]
Yeah, I don't think there would be any problem even if it was marked in the exact correct spot.
I've seen ATF agents who were not visually able to determine if a DIAS, LL, or sear were present in broken-down lowers. Most don't have a clue. They just saw a PowerPoint or PDF on it once. |
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Posted: 12/3/2016 1:19:37 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I don't think there would be any problem even if it was marked in the exact correct spot. I've seen ATF agents who were not visually able to determine if a DIAS, LL, or sear were present in broken-down lowers. Most don't have a clue. They just saw a PowerPoint or PDF on it once. I agree completely. A fake third hole engraving provides as much "constructive intent" as engraving the word "AUTO" does. |
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Posted: 12/3/2016 2:11:01 PM EDT
[#38]
Fucking idiots
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Posted: 12/3/2016 2:19:30 PM EDT
[#39]
The Agent worked in Kalifornia prior to where he is now.
Don't think he's new, maybe just ....... well, strict?
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Posted: 12/3/2016 2:55:58 PM EDT
[#40]
I have only seen one case where a resto lower was actually confiscated and destroyed and they attempted to charge the owner with illegal manufacture of a machine gun. The reason, was there was an engraved pin hole in the exact position of the actually pin would sit and the ATF attempted to say the engraver was providing a correct location for an illegal part so that the owner could finish it himself.
The lower was destroyed, but the case was thrown out by a Judge who actually knew the laws, what they said and what can and cannot be legally done. It is clear that this engraved pin position is not in the correct position to mill out and actually manufacture a MG as well as the FCG pocket has not been milled in such a manner as to allow FA parts to be installed in the correct manner position to allow FA operation. It sounds like they ran into one of the over achievers at the ATF and he wants to impress the boss with his due diligence. But as I have said in other threads about what you can and cannot do, it all comes down to the judgement of the agent on what the "INTENT" was. And the owner of the gun does not get to decide intent, the guy with the badge does. |
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Posted: 12/3/2016 3:04:17 PM EDT
[#41]
I cant speak for other places, but when i went to have my completed 80%'ers to get cerecoated, it was alot of "no's, we wont touch 80% lowers w/o a serial" I found 1 place that said sure as long as i hung around till it was done. at this point i had choice. thankfully the guy was cool and said just to stay in the area, so i went to a few other gun shops and had lunch.
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Posted: 12/4/2016 12:10:29 AM EDT
[#42]
ATF has a slew of determination letters out there that said if an 80% receiver even has a locating mark, dimple, etc. on the receiver for locating the trigger and hammer pins it is classified as a firearm.
Not saying it is the case, but it is possible they may make the same argument in this regard to it being a machine gun. I have the determination letters but I'd need time to dig them up and post them. In the middle of a lot of briefs. |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 1:39:45 AM EDT
[#43]
Lets not forget the TROY production GAU5 replicas, that they don't seem to have an issue with. So I doubt this will amount to anything at all.
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Posted: 12/4/2016 11:08:30 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lets not forget the TROY production GAU5 replicas, that they don't seem to have an issue with. So I doubt this will amount to anything at all. http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/img_0622.jpeg I know "authenticity" and all that but I cringe when I see a receiver with the "Auto" marking. I would not want to have to have to try to explain to a not-firearms-knowledgeable cop or G-man that it is not real, even if the selector will not move to that position. I can see the possibility of someone's rifle being confiscated "for evaluation". And a pet peeve: The Troy rifle pictured has a selector that doesn't detent at 90 degrees. That is caused by either a mis-machined selector or a mis-machined selector detent bore in the receiver. I'm constantly amazed that manufacturers will allow pics of their product with an out-of-position selector. I've rejected receivers and selectors for this problem. Nit picky, maybe, but it just isn't "right". ETA: and it looks like the hand guard snap ring that holds the weld spring into the delta ring is hanging loose. |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 11:17:11 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have the determination letters but I'd need time to dig them up and post them. In the middle of a lot of briefs. Get someone else to do your laundry - this is important! :) |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 12:05:19 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know "authenticity" and all that but I cringe when I see a receiver with the "Auto" marking. I would not want to have to have to try to explain to a not-firearms-knowledgeable cop or G-man that it is not real, even if the selector will not move to that position. I can see the possibility of someone's rifle being confiscated "for evaluation". And a pet peeve: The Troy rifle pictured has a selector that doesn't detent at 90 degrees. That is caused by either a mis-machined selector or a mis-machined selector detent bore in the receiver. I'm constantly amazed that manufacturers will allow pics of their product with an out-of-position selector. I've rejected receivers and selectors for this problem. Nit picky, maybe, but it just isn't "right". ETA: and it looks like the hand guard snap ring that holds the weld spring into the delta ring is hanging loose. |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 12:08:57 PM EDT
[#47]
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Posted: 12/4/2016 12:17:50 PM EDT
[#48]
Here you go. One I found after searching for them. Whether or not that is something ATF would contend here or not I don't know.
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Posted: 12/4/2016 12:23:50 PM EDT
[#49]
BROvet, I think Clay was asking for clarification on Diesel's statement about the selector NOT being dead 90 degrees to the receiver when in the fire/semi position. Looks pretty close....might be a bit of optical illusion due to the faux engraved happy pin being slightly off location.
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Posted: 12/4/2016 1:13:25 PM EDT
[#50]
No, that selector is definitely off. It's canted to the right (the detent for 'fire' is off by a mm or so). I've thrown out 5 different selectors for the same problem.
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