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Posted: 8/20/2004 9:08:20 AM EST
Two campers found slain on California beach
Police say they were shot in sleep
Friday, August 20, 2004 Posted: 10:54 AM EDT (1454 GMT)




SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- A soon-to-be married couple reported missing when they didn't return to their jobs as camp counselors were found shot to death on a beach, apparently in their sleep, authorities said.

The bodies of Lindsay Cutshall, 23, of Ohio, and Jason Allen, 26, of Michigan, were discovered in sleeping bags by sheriff's deputies who were rescuing a stranded hiker.

"They were shot in the head, presumably in their sleep because there was no disturbance at their camp site," Lt. Dave Edmonds said. The victims had valuables nearby that weren't taken, Edmonds said.

Police believe the couple had been camping in the Jenner area, about 75 miles up the coast from San Francisco, since Saturday. Authorities do not know when the couple was killed. Autopsies were planned for Friday.

The two were spending the summer working at Rock-N-Water, a Christian adventure camp in Coloma, in the Sierra foothills about 50 miles east of Sacramento.

They were reported missing Monday after they didn't return to camp. They were last seen Friday when they said they were going to visit friends and would get back on Sunday, sheriff's officials said.

Authorities said the two bodies appeared to have been on the beach for more than 24 hours when they were spotted by a helicopter crew sent to rescue a 17-year-old boy who had fallen about 50 feet while trying to retrieve a purse his girlfriend dropped.

The hiker, who was clinging to a rocky cliff when rescuers arrived, was pulled up by a paramedic attached to the helicopter by a 100-foot rope.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:09:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 9:10:55 AM EST by desertmoon]
ummm...hold a second I need to reread this quick



This is the same APPARENT M.O. as a recent killing in AZ....a young couple camping in the back of their pickup was shot in the head about a year ago...
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:11:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
Two campers found slain on California beach
Police say they were shot in sleep
Friday, August 20, 2004 Posted: 10:54 AM EDT (1454 GMT)




SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- A soon-to-be married couple reported missing when they didn't return to their jobs as camp counselors were found shot to death on a beach, apparently in their sleep, authorities said.

The bodies of Lindsay Cutshall, 23, of Ohio, and Jason Allen, 26, of Michigan, were discovered in sleeping bags by sheriff's deputies who were rescuing a stranded hiker.

"They were shot in the head, presumably in their sleep because there was no disturbance at their camp site," Lt. Dave Edmonds said. The victims had valuables nearby that weren't taken, Edmonds said.

Police believe the couple had been camping in the Jenner area, about 75 miles up the coast from San Francisco, since Saturday. Authorities do not know when the couple was killed. Autopsies were planned for Friday.

The two were spending the summer working at Rock-N-Water, a Christian adventure camp in Coloma, in the Sierra foothills about 50 miles east of Sacramento.

They were reported missing Monday after they didn't return to camp. They were last seen Friday when they said they were going to visit friends and would get back on Sunday, sheriff's officials said.

Authorities said the two bodies appeared to have been on the beach for more than 24 hours when they were spotted by a helicopter crew sent to rescue a 17-year-old boy who had fallen about 50 feet while trying to retrieve a purse his girlfriend dropped.

The hiker, who was clinging to a rocky cliff when rescuers arrived, was pulled up by a paramedic attached to the helicopter by a 100-foot rope.




Where's Chuck Norris?

Reminds me of when the guys storm the beach in Invasion USA.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:12:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
ummm...hold a second I need to reread this quick



This is the same APPARENT M.O. as a recent killing in AZ....a young couple camping in the back of their pickup was shot in the head about a year ago...



Interesting wonder if there is a connection. Perhaps that is info somone would be interested in.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:14:11 AM EST


California sucks!
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:15:19 AM EST
Well, there has specualtion that there was a man that the couple had an argument with some time before could have been a suspect....which is possible...but this is a bit odd as the couple seems to be of the same type of folks.....kinda wierd.....
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:18:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
This is the same APPARENT M.O. as a recent killing in AZ....a young couple camping in the back of their pickup was shot in the head about a year ago...



That's what I was thinking. Did that case ever get resolved?
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:23:25 AM EST
When I go camping out in the desert I bring the dog. She barks at the wind or if a rattlesnake farts.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:25:16 AM EST
Sounds like a homosexual serial killer hunting happy strait couples.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 9:26:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
"They were shot in the head, presumably in their sleep because there was no disturbance at their camp site," Lt. Dave Edmonds said. The victims had valuables nearby that weren't taken, Edmonds said.





"Gee, NorCal (insert your name here), why do you take a gun camping? Who's going to mess with you in the (insert woods, beach, desert)?"
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 12:20:41 PM EST
zodiac?
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 12:25:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By legalese77:
zodiac?



Doubtful. Although he shot the cab driver in San Francisco, he tended to stick to around where I live.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 12:26:39 PM EST
Before someone says something about not being allowed to protect themselves. California law allows you to keep a loaded & concealed firearm at your campsite. In fact the law treats your home and your campsite the same way. If this couple was unarmed, it's because they chose to be.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 12:35:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:


California sucks!



Okay. But what does that have to do with this story?
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 12:49:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 12:50:31 PM EST by MudBug]

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Before someone says something about not being allowed to protect themselves. California law allows you to keep a loaded & concealed firearm at your campsite. In fact the law treats your home and your campsite the same way. If this couple was unarmed, it's because they chose to be.



True, when I lived in Nor Cal I used to do a lot of overnight fishing for catfish at Sonoma Lake, we could beach our boat in a cove and camp there overnight, sleeping with bells on our poles. I always brought my Springfield 1911A1.

In CA your camp is considered your home, and since there are 2 types of all night fishermen, freaks like me that just wanted to catch the big cats, and crank damaged thugs, being armed was a necessity.

BTW, I can't believe this happened in Jenner, it's barely even a town. More like a gas station and a gift shop.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 1:19:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 1:28:14 PM EST by fixer]

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
ummm...hold a second I need to reread this quick



This is the same APPARENT M.O. as a recent killing in AZ....a young couple camping in the back of their pickup was shot in the head about a year ago...



anyone have a link to that story?

Tac_Jew, you got a link to the original story?

nevermind... found it on CNN
edition.cnn.com/2004/US/West/08/20/camp.counselors.slain.ap/
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 1:35:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/20/2004 1:36:18 PM EST by MMcCall]
Two thoughts:

1. Zodiac was the first thing that came to mind, because of the couple aspect, but Zodiac loved to terrorize his victims first. He would have had them awake and toyed with them first.

2. They went in their sleep, which is all any of us can ask for. God rest them.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 1:35:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
When I go camping out in the desert I bring the dog. She barks at the wind or if a rattlesnake farts.




The Jew has it right . . . no camping without a gun and a dog--preferably a barking dog.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 1:37:47 PM EST
Impossible. Guns are being banned in CA.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 1:39:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Before someone says something about not being allowed to protect themselves. California law allows you to keep a loaded & concealed firearm at your campsite. In fact the law treats your home and your campsite the same way. If this couple was unarmed, it's because they chose to be.



Where have you seen this? I would love to see that stature, as well as what is legally defined as your "campsite" etc. Does this overrule the no firearms law of state and national parks?

John
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 1:41:47 PM EST
Bad juju there. Sounds like a potential serial killer. I bet we hear more from this guy.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 1:51:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 3:12:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By JSteensen:
[Does this overrule the no firearms law of state and national parks?

John



No.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 3:17:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By MMcCall:


2. They went in their sleep, which is all any of us can ask for. God rest them.



If it was a serial killer who did this... and that is what it sounds like... he probably woke them up first.

Not to mention, even if the first one DID go in his/her sleep, the second one was awake just long enough to realize what was about to happen.

They did not go peacefully.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 3:18:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
When I go camping out in the desert I bring the dog. She barks at the wind or if a rattlesnake farts.



Next time take the dog and a gun
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 3:19:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Before someone says something about not being allowed to protect themselves. California law allows you to keep a loaded & concealed firearm at your campsite. In fact the law treats your home and your campsite the same way. If this couple was unarmed, it's because they chose to be.


In National and Sate Parks also ?

I thought they had signs saying no guns allowed ?
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 3:26:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By JPPJ:

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
When I go camping out in the desert I bring the dog. She barks at the wind or if a rattlesnake farts.




The Jew has it right . . . no camping without a gun and a dog--preferably a barking dog.



+1, Just another good example of why a dog is truly your best friend. Another good friend is a .45 auto.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:54:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By howlie:

Originally Posted By JPPJ:

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
When I go camping out in the desert I bring the dog. She barks at the wind or if a rattlesnake farts.




The Jew has it right . . . no camping without a gun and a dog--preferably a barking dog.



+1, Just another good example of why a dog is truly your best friend. Another good friend is a .45 auto.



I prefer two .45's
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 7:12:33 PM EST
That's why I sleep with a loaded Benelli M1 and an HK 45 USP in my roof tent.

The CA law is as follows:

Firearms in the Home or Business

Any person over the age of 18 who is not prohibited from possessing firearms, and if
otherwise lawful, may keep and carry a firearm or have a firearm loaded at his or her place
of residence, temporary residence, campsite, or on private property owned or lawfully
possessed by the person. (Penal Code §§ 12026, 12031(h) and (l).) Any person engaged in
any lawful business (including nonprofit organizations) or any officer, employee, or agent
authorized for lawful purposes connected with the business may possess a loaded firearm
within the place of business if that person is over 18 years of age and not otherwise
prohibited from possessing firearms. (Penal Code §§ 12026, 12031(h).)

NOTE: A person’s place of business, residence, temporary residence, campsite, or private
property may be located in areas where possession of handguns or firearms, whether loaded
or unloaded, is otherwise prohibited. Such areas include, but are not limited to, state,
federal, or private game reserves or refuges, federal and state parks, and other public lands.
Questions regarding the applicability of such laws should be directed to your sheriff or chief
of police, federal or state fish and game officers, or federal or state park rangers.

CW
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 7:15:48 PM EST
Unmarried "CHRISTIAN" camp counselors SLEEPING TOGETHER on a beach?? Hmmmmm. . . .Doesn't sound too Christian to me. Remind me not to send my kids to that camp.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 8:24:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
This is the same APPARENT M.O. as a recent killing in AZ....a young couple camping in the back of their pickup was shot in the head about a year ago...



That's what I was thinking. Did that case ever get resolved?



Not yet.

Jay
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 8:56:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By AZCOP:

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
This is the same APPARENT M.O. as a recent killing in AZ....a young couple camping in the back of their pickup was shot in the head about a year ago...



That's what I was thinking. Did that case ever get resolved?



Not yet.

Jay



Jay....any impressions? I haven't gone over the CA case in detail but dammit if this doesn't just REEK of a similar M.O.


To those arguing about the couple being armed....I am not so sure that without a dog this would have helped. In the Arizona case it appeared ( IIRC ) that the couple was shot whilst asleep. Like the Zodiac killer this guy would have to be a good shot because the second shot is going to have to be fast to make it a head shot also. Wonder if this has occurred in any other states??? I admit this is most likely coincidence but, MAN, it doesn't seem so.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 9:07:03 AM EST
I've sent a copy of the story to my LT in criminal investigations,,, in case he has not heard of it.

For myself,,, I think it unlikely they are related.

Jay
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 9:10:33 AM EST
Sleeping together != having premarital sex. It may very well be that they were sleeping next to each other, and by the sound of the article, they were in seperate sleeping bags....cant do much when you got a few inches of padding in the way...

John
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 9:18:38 AM EST
Its a sad story story.Sounds like they both had alot to offer in life.

RIP
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 9:20:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 9:29:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By AZCOP:
I've sent a copy of the story to my LT in criminal investigations,,, in case he has not heard of it.

For myself,,, I think it unlikely they are related.

Jay



So just on the far out there side of things....

Lets say that somhow the two are related. And the info passed on by you, that you got from a story posted by another site member gets things rolling between the two LE agencies and they somhow catch the person who did it. And it turns out that yup, it was this person who did both.

Would that entitle ARFCOM to it's own TV show ya know like CIS or something like that. Ya know it could be a spin off of one of them crime shows or somthing.... but what would it be called?
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 9:45:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 9:49:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:

Originally Posted By photoman:

So just on the far out there side of things....

Lets say that somhow the two are related. And the info passed on by you, that you got from a story posted by another site member gets things rolling between the two LE agencies and they somhow catch the person who did it. And it turns out that yup, it was this person who did both.

Would that entitle ARFCOM to it's own TV show ya know like CIS or something like that. Ya know it could be a spin off of one of them crime shows or somthing.... but what would it be called?



CSI: ARFCOM



I'm just going to have to hurt both of you.

Jay
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:17:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By AZCOP:

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:

Originally Posted By photoman:

So just on the far out there side of things....

Lets say that somhow the two are related. And the info passed on by you, that you got from a story posted by another site member gets things rolling between the two LE agencies and they somhow catch the person who did it. And it turns out that yup, it was this person who did both.

Would that entitle ARFCOM to it's own TV show ya know like CIS or something like that. Ya know it could be a spin off of one of them crime shows or somthing.... but what would it be called?



CSI: ARFCOM



I'm just going to have to hurt both of you.

Jay





So that begs the next question than. How do we sell the idea to the TV execs?
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:27:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
"They were shot in the head, presumably in their sleep because there was no disturbance at their camp site," Lt. Dave Edmonds said. The victims had valuables nearby that weren't taken, Edmonds said.





"Gee, NorCal (insert your name here), why do you take a gun camping? Who's going to mess with you in the (insert woods, beach, desert)?"



No shit. My fucking campsites look like one of PSYWAR's FARPs in Colombia.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 10:36:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
"They were shot in the head, presumably in their sleep because there was no disturbance at their camp site," Lt. Dave Edmonds said. The victims had valuables nearby that weren't taken, Edmonds said.





"Gee, NorCal (insert your name here), why do you take a gun camping? Who's going to mess with you in the (insert woods, beach, desert)?"



No shit. My fucking campsites look like one of PSYWAR's FARPs in Colombia.




Shit you won;t catch me in the woods without a gun, of course most of the time when I'm in the woods I'm hunting soooooo
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 2:32:06 PM EST
Just heard on fox the think it might be a hate crime.......
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