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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/5/2002 3:54:29 PM EST
What the heck is going on in law enforcement today? We tell the public do not resist a armed robber or rapist or any king of thug, your property is not worth your life, BULL the bad guy is just as likely to kill you to avoid a wittiness as not. Our country was founded by people who fought for there rights and now we tell people forget your rights, forget what you worked for your whole life just give it to the bad guys, this is bad advice and it is given by desk jockeys who are armed , and drive police cars with police radios, and you can bet they would resist a robbery or a rape. We need to get back to basics and support civilians who "fight back" against the criminal element.Support them , don't try to jam them for whatever just because some bureaucrat who is a desk jockey has lost touch with reality.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 7:28:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/5/2002 7:30:46 PM EST by Sparky315]
Most often that advice is given by the suits that run the department, not the line troops. The suits give that advice because they have long since lost touch with reality and because their agency legal counsel is terrified of what would happen if the official agency line was to tell people to fight back against crooks. Line troops that advise people to fight back if attacked can and have been disciplined by their administrations for giving that advice. My previous employer had it written into policy that we could not tell people to purchase firearms for self-defense, even though my state is shall-issue CCW. Most of the line troops ignored that policy, and some paid for it. So to answer your question, what the heck is going on in law enforcement is the same thing that's going on in almost any other profession today- the fucking lawyers are running the show, and their only concern is getting sued, NOT doing the right thing. So, if people stop filing frivolous lawsuits against police departments, maybe the legal counsels won't keep the chains on the troops quite as badly.
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 2:06:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/6/2002 2:09:55 AM EST by bountyhunter]
Originally Posted By Sparky315: Most often that advice is given by the suits that run the department, not the line troops. The suits give that advice because they have long since lost touch with reality and because their agency legal counsel is terrified of what would happen if the official agency line was to tell people to fight back against crooks. Line troops that advise people to fight back if attacked can and have been disciplined by their administrations for giving that advice. My previous employer had it written into policy that we could not tell people to purchase firearms for self-defense, even though my state is shall-issue CCW. Most of the line troops ignored that policy, and some paid for it. So to answer your question, what the heck is going on in law enforcement is the same thing that's going on in almost any other profession today- the fucking lawyers are running the show, and their only concern is getting sued, NOT doing the right thing. So, if people stop filing frivolous lawsuits against police departments, maybe the legal counsels won't keep the chains on the troops quite as badly.
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Your right about lawyers making a mess out of our system and society, Maybe LAW SCHOOL should focus on ethics, or ligit layers should take up the cause and help people pro bono(free)
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 6:12:36 AM EST
Yeah, that would be nice, but it's not gonna happen. The problem is, as much as our society talks about truth, justice, and the American way, we are driven by one thing: PROFIT. As long as attorneys can make a profit by manipulating the system to their advantage, they will. As will the politicians, the entertainment industry, and anyone else who has the financial and political clout to do so. So what if it comes at the expense of your average family? They don't give a shit.
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 6:54:08 AM EST
Sparky 315, you know a thought just occurred to me, the jerk attorneys, judges,mayors, councilmen,all those who are down on legal firearms, when the day is done they go home to their gated communities, with there private security guards, expensive home alarm systems and I bet they even have a .38 snubby in the nightstand, because they think they are the only ones that have enough brains to use it in a manner they deem to be appropriate. Screw them all, I stand by my first message, it's up to the line troops to support the average Joe on the street and if he does protect himself, we should do all we can to help him process through the legal system without f****** him over.As far as the troops getting into trouble for doing this that is why stong unions are needed in a Law Enforcement agency, to keep the butt head brass in check.
Link Posted: 7/7/2002 7:16:20 AM EST
It's sad to say, but this isn't just a trend in LE. It's all over. We've grown too used to being able to pick up the phone and arrange for someone else to do a job for us. Used to be if the wheel fell off your wagon, you fixed it or did without your wagon. How many of us have been called to give advise to parents on how to raise their kids. This isn't what gov't was designed for, folks. The suits love this because it guarantees them work outside of actual street police work. Much nicer to sit in a room and think up catch phrases and buzz words like "Community Policing" and "SARA Model Problem Solving". What would they do for a living if people actually started handling their own problems? I, for one, would like to find out!
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 3:03:52 AM EST
I just posted this to start some guys thinking,because they hire the young guys and start to brainwash them in the Academy, and soon they lose the ability to think for themselves, hence duty manuals that try to cover everything, supervisors having to make simple every day decisions. And your right about the Government doing it for everyone , community policing is a huge government "feel good" program started by the government because, frankly we are losing the war against crime, so bullshit the people with this community policing program, at least they will "feel good" after there assaulted. robbed, vandalized, heck, I use to get wrote up for having a cups of coffee at the shops on my beat,years later I was ordered to do it as part of the community policing program. Talk with people in your patrol zone,did it for years, even before being ordered to do it as community policing.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 9:04:28 AM EST
One other reason the suits give the "no resistance" message: If we are no longer a Nation of Cowards, we reduce the need for large police departments. I may be a cynic, but more officers equals larger salaries for the brass. They want to expand their "monopoly" on use of force.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 10:08:04 AM EST
Your property IS NOT worth your life!!! You have a right to protect yourself and your family. You do not have a right to shoot a burglar in the back as he is walking out with your t.v. set. If you shoot a burglar who was trying to steal your "property" that you have worked all your life to get, and tell the police you killed a man because you worked hard for that "property", you will and should go to jail. If you shoot a burglar who is trying to steal your "property" that you have worked all of your life to get, and tell the police that you were in fear of your life, and that upon seeing the suspect he reached for his waist band, and you shot him, fearing that he had a weapon, you won't and shouldn't go to jail. I am just saying you need to be "in fear" if you are going to use deadly force.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 1:03:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By schv: Your property IS NOT worth your life!!! You have a right to protect yourself and your family. You do not have a right to shoot a burglar in the back as he is walking out with your t.v. set. If you shoot a burglar who was trying to steal your "property" that you have worked all your life to get, and tell the police you killed a man because you worked hard for that "property", you will and should go to jail. If you shoot a burglar who is trying to steal your "property" that you have worked all of your life to get, and tell the police that you were in fear of your life, and that upon seeing the suspect he reached for his waist band, and you shot him, fearing that he had a weapon, you won't and shouldn't go to jail. I am just saying you need to be "in fear" if you are going to use deadly force.
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(sigh) I beg to differ...in Texas Sec. 9.42. Deadly Force to Protect Property. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property: (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary: (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and (3) he reasonably believes that: (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 3:12:47 PM EST
schv, property not worth your life, well if some piece of dung is about to torch my house and is holding a match with a empty can of gas at his feet, I guess I would do what was needed to protect the lives of the fireman who would have had to respond to the fire and place their lives in jeopardy by fighting it. It's not what you say its how you say it.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 3:19:25 PM EST
Texas-gray, Texas ,you got to love it, one of the few states that still has a little freedom, and common sence, and the balls to exacute the people who commit henious crimes.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 3:27:04 PM EST
You are right, schv, and bountyhunter. The problem is tho' are you gonna be responsible when people that have no idea how to defend themselves try to, and get killed for the attempt? In robberies, armed or otherwise, most of the time the robbers count on surprise to gain an advandtage on the victim. If you make a bunch of noise about resisting, you might be dead before you even "clear leather". Most of the times the BG's want MONEY. The people that have it are just a minor inconvinince. They want MONEY and will leave when they get the MONEY. Now the rules also should change if the BG's indicate they want more than money, or are directing the victims to leave the original crime scene, or get into a back room. Those are all signs that BIG PROBLEMS are about to happen. RESIST, resist forcefully and DO NOT back down once you decide to start resisting until you suceed. As far as crimes like rape. The advise is for the victim to do WHATEVER they feel is apropriate to survive. If the victim feels that no resistance can stop the assault, and might lead to death or serious injury and they decide not to acvtively resist, and they survive, WHO ARE YOU TO TELL THEM THEY DID SOMETHING WRONG?? WHO?? Of course if they feel that they can stop the attack by a use of force, they should be encouraged to do that. Telling every victim to resist is stupid, many of them have no skills, tactical sense, or weapons to resist. Not to mention if you are attacked by a person that already has a gun in their hand they have "the drop" on you and they need only move one finger less than an inch to send a bullet your way. Anyone can resist but very few may be able to EFFECTIVELY resist.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 3:32:55 PM EST
In other words, [red]discretion is the better part of valor.[/red]
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 3:34:59 PM EST
OLY-m4gery, everyone has the choice to fight, or submit, and they should. But as for me better to die like a lion, than a lamb at slaughter.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 3:44:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By bountyhunter: OLY-m4gery, everyone has the choice to fight, or submit, and they should. But as for me better to die like a lion, than a lamb at slaughter.
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And to die like a lion in an unwinnable fight only makes you a dumb dead lion. It is far better to be ready with the lamb suit to cover that wolf looking appearance and wait for an opportunity to sieze the advantage and show your true nature. If you lose money, it is unlikely to be impossible to get more money. But dead is forever. Pick your battles.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 4:01:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2002 3:22:11 AM EST by bountyhunter]
OLY-M4gery, when your right your right, I agree best to wait till you have some good odds at succeeding. Anyway I think we are getting off of the subject, what I had in mind was stuff like those store owners protecting there stores during the LA riots , when the Police were not to be found. And situations when the person is in there home and someone is doing a home invasion, stuff like that, not being jumped on the street no chance to move or you die kind of thing.
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 1:14:19 PM EST
You guys are on target concerning taking care of what's yours, including your skin. The problem runs deeper than whether or not to shoot burglars. The gov't WANT'S you to rely on it for everything. That way, it can tax us all to death for duties it was never designed to provide. It makes people come to it for everything. Want a new roof? Pay a fee for the building permit so they can raise your taxes for higher value property. Want a new gun? Pay a fee for the form to fill it out so they can come find it when they make it illegal. They're making it a crime in cities for a restaurant owner to allow people to smoke in his own establishment! Go to Amazon.com and lok for the book "The Dumbing Down Of America." Govt' wants us dumb and dependant so legislators can arrange for us to pay them huge salaries and pensions and make us line up like sheep and follow the leader. It didn't work in Moscow, why should it work in Washington?
Link Posted: 7/9/2002 3:02:22 PM EST
I see where the AR 15.com home page has a news article about anti self defence laws. Read it it ain't to bad.
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 8:05:24 AM EST
My property not being worth MY life, maybe not...but is my property being worth YOUR life? Break into my house and 'you're' a dead man...
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 3:54:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/12/2002 3:55:31 AM EST by cyanide]
I can recall a situation once where a guy was living in a kind of down on your luck Hotel,now don't get me wrong these for the most part were good people, just not rich. A resident who had been huffing air plane model glue decided he was going to take his baseball bat and break into another guys room with it and pound the shit out of the guy for no good reason, the room occupant pulled out his POS handgun and shot the brain dead, bat wielding goofball dead. Now I saw the situation first hand and felt it was self defense. But the local prosecutor felt like taking it to court just so he would be left off of the hook for any decision. This in my opinion sucked , and cost the tax payers much money, and the final verdict---- was self defence.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 12:13:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By Texas_Grey: I beg to differ...in Texas..... [B] and (3) he reasonably believes that: (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or[/B]
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Bold is mine.. the "and cannot be protected by other means " is a very critical element of that law, and one that you Texans seem quick to ignore when you cite that statute. From what I understand, that law hasn't been challenged in the legal system, either. Do you REALLY want to be the test case? As to the original poster, no one is suggesting that you should not defend yourself or another party against physical assault..just that your property isn't worth killing someone over. Any amount of force used by anyone..LEO or citizen..must be justifiable and in accordance with the offense being commited.
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